Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Derek Pullem]

India will be interesting. The Cripps mission may or may not be sent - I suspect it will but its mandate is likely to be much reduced. Similarly the Indian attitude to the war will be less impacted by any external threat from the Japanese. Even though the drivers for both sides are different I suspect the Quit India campaign will still happen but that it will not create as much tension ITTL as IOTL.

Ghandi may or may not be imprisoned - I think its more likely that he will be jailed but chance that the British may feel they can tolerate him with no direct threat.

Bose is likely to be a complete non-entity ITTL - no INA.

The absence of the Bengal famine won't change the politics that much - both sides are too entrenched for that. The attitudes of the non-political Indians may be somewhat different though - perversely without the famine there may be more not less dissent.

 

[Ramp-Rat]

No Bose, no INA means that the heroes in the Indian press, both during the war and post war, will be members of or former members of the British Indian Army. The absence of the Bengal Famine as we know it, will remove one of the principal elements of the conflict between the opposing wings of the independence movement. Those British who regarded the Indians as children who needed daddy’s guidance, and those Indians who regarded everything British to be an evil, to be destroyed. For those more towards the centre, who while disagreeing on the form and timing of Indian independence. As a dominion remaining within the Commonwealth, or an independent state but still within the Commonwealth structure, does the independent India remain within the sterling area, or join the dollar area. Should India retain military ties with Britain, or should she reject any such ties, and follow a completely separate road and be nonaligned.

RR.

 

[Derek Pullem]

No Bose, no INA means that the heroes in the Indian press, both during the war and post war, will be members of or former members of the British Indian Army. The absence of the Bengal Famine as we know it, will remove one of the principal elements of the conflict between the opposing wings of the independence movement. Those British who regarded the Indians as children who needed daddy’s guidance, and those Indians who regarded everything British to be an evil, to be destroyed. For those more towards the centre, who while disagreeing on the form and timing of Indian independence. As a dominion remaining within the Commonwealth, or an independent state but still within the Commonwealth structure, does the independent India remain within the sterling area, or join the dollar area. Should India retain military ties with Britain, or should she reject any such ties, and follow a completely separate road and be nonaligned.

RR.

Not convinced. Quit India was started well before the famine and the famine reduced dissent not increased in the short term. Without the famine there will still be diametrically opposed views between Churchill and Gandhi. I don't think a Dominion or British aligned India is realistic by this time, some form of dislocation with Britain is inevitable IMHO.

 

[focus9912]

India will be interesting. The Cripps mission may or may not be sent - I suspect it will but its mandate is likely to be much reduced. Similarly the Indian attitude to the war will be less impacted by any external threat from the Japanese. Even though the drivers for both sides are different I suspect the Quit India campaign will still happen but that it will not create as much tension ITTL as IOTL.

Ghandi may or may not be imprisoned - I think its more likely that he will be jailed but chance that the British may feel they can tolerate him with no direct threat.

Interesting indeed, perhaps an mission with a different mandate (like examining the whole administration process to see if there are any meaningful reform that can be done that in a way satisfy the desire of the Indian population)

Bose is likely to be a complete non-entity ITTL - no INA.

No Bose, no INA means that the heroes in the Indian press, both during the war and post war, will be members of or former members of the British Indian Army.

Yup, Bose is...huh, stuck at Nazi Germany. Would be interesting to see if he turned out to be found by a captain that could be playing a part in the liberation of Europe ITTL.

The absence of the Bengal Famine as we know it, will remove one of the principal elements of the conflict between the opposing wings of the independence movement. Those British who regarded the Indians as children who needed daddy’s guidance, and those Indians who regarded everything British to be an evil, to be destroyed. For those more towards the centre, who while disagreeing on the form and timing of Indian independence. As a dominion remaining within the Commonwealth, or an independent state but still within the Commonwealth structure, does the independent India remain within the sterling area, or join the dollar area. Should India retain military ties with Britain, or should she reject any such ties, and follow a completely separate road and be nonaligned.

RR.

The absence of the Bengal famine won't change the politics that much - both sides are too entrenched for that. The attitudes of the non-political Indians may be somewhat different though - perversely without the famine there may be more not less dissent.

Is it me, or is the way Lord Linlithgow handles India (even after discounting the handling of the famine) actually had done more damage to the British reputation among Indians than the Bengal famine and the collapse of the British Army in Southeast Asia combined?

TLDR:
The Japanese Army is fucked,
While the Indian army would not be cucked,
Bose is definitely stuck,
and Lord Linlithgow really suck.

 

[kelgar04]

Yeah Lord Linlithgow did do a lot of bad to India and the British.

Also, Bose ITTL is probably just destined to be a footnote in Indian history. He Will probably end up liquidated or put in a gilded cage for the rest of the war.

 

[allanpcameron]

19 February 1942. Ping River, Thailand.

Risaldar Prag Singh couldn’t believe his eyes. The Risalder was commanding a troop of three Vickers Mk VIB light tanks, in the 13th Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers. His troop were out on the left flank in support of B Company, 2nd Bn 7th Gurkha Rifles. 20th Indian Infantry Brigade (10th Indian Division) had been arriving at the river over the previous two days.

What confronted him was the sight of a Japanese officer running towards his tank with a sword in his hand, and what seemed like a regiment of screaming Japanese following him with fixed bayonets. For a moment Singh found himself trying to get over the dryness in his mouth to speak into the intercom. He didn’t really need to, his gunner didn’t wait for the order to open fire. He’d seen the same thing and his training just kicked in. The .303 bullets from the Vickers MG seemed to cut the Japanese officer in half. Singh had got over his surprise and had managed to order the driver to reverse. The other two light tanks moved in unison back along the path they had followed.

Singh had to look behind where the tank was heading to give the driver instructions. He could see one of the companies of the Gurkha rifles responding to the firing and the sudden arrival of the tanks. Singh ordered his troop to stop to support the Gurkhas. A young British officer jumped up onto the tank to ask what the problem was, but that brought him a clear view of a large body of Japanese troops charging.

He turned around and screamed an order, but before it was out of his mouth, a bullet silenced him. The Nepalese troops reacted swiftly to the threat, fast accurate musketry cut into the Japanese ranks, with Bren guns adding their weight of fire to the three tanks’ MGs. Over the time Singh and his men had been using the Mk VIB they had learned to rely much more on the .303 MG rather than the .50 MG, which always seemed prone to jamming. Now both were needed and Singh took over the .50, silently thanking God that the gun actually fired off a full belt of ammunition without a single hitch.

The Japanese troops, thinned out by the combined tank and infantry fire, broke like a wave onto the Gurkha Company, and the fight became a melee of hand to hand fighting. The .50 MG jammed just at the beginning of the second belt, and the gunner pushed Singh out of his way while he tried to free the jammed round and get it working again. Singh took over the .303 MG and tried to keep the turret moving from right to left and back to spray the next wave of Japanese troops. He was distracted by the screams of the driver, some Japanese were firing directly into the driver’s viewing sights, and attempting to force open his hatch and the engine hatch. This made Singh aware that there were other Japanese troops above him on the turret, probably trying to open the hatch to drop in grenades. Singh shouted the order for the driver advance, hopefully running over the Japanese at the front of the tank. As the tank lurched forward the sickening screams of someone being crushed under the left track pierced the noise of the battle all around. Leaving the gunner to fight the vehicle Singh used the radio to check the other two tanks in the troop. One failed to respond, and the other was right in the middle of the melee and beginning to receive the same attention.

Singh ordered that tank to advance towards him, and warned them that his gunner would use the MG on any Japanese on their tanks, asking them to do the same. They knew armour should be strong enough to withstand the .303 bullets, but being struck by a burst from a friendly machine gun was nerve wracking. Because the Japanese and Gurkhas were mixed in together it was too dangerous to open fire, in case they hit their own side. There didn’t seem to be a third wave of Japanese troops, so Singh had time to change the radio set to the Squadron net. Reporting the situation to Captain George Garlick, the Squadron OC, Singh was ordered to stay with the Gurkhas and support them as best he could.

The Risalder took the chance to open the top hatch, with his pistol drawn, to try to see clearly just what exactly was going on. The weight of numbers was favouring the Japanese, and although the Gurkhas were taking a heavy toll on their enemy, it was clear to Singh that at least some of the Japanese were disengaged and moving in the direction of the Gurkha Battalion HQ. Signalling the other tank, he gave orders that the two tanks were to advance to the Gurkha position. There was no signal worked out between the tanks and the infantry for what to do in this situation, so Singh hoped that the Gurkhas would understand what he was about to do.

Staying exposed in the turret he waved he pistol around his head in an attempt to signal ‘rally on me’. The gunners in both tanks were firing short bursts trying to be careful not to hit the Gurkhas. Jemadar Chatruman Limbu, the senior surviving Gurkha officer, saw what the tank commander was doing and got the remnant of his platoon to move fast towards the tanks, picking up other men and sections as they went. The tanks came to a halt for a moment or two and Singh motioned for Limbu and his men to climb aboard. Limbu shook his head, but ordered that the wounded should be placed on the tanks. Motioning the tank commander forward, Limbu and his survivors followed the tanks, still fighting, taking on any Japanese who tried to intervene.

As Singh moved forward his two tanks were able to engage the enemy who had broken through the Gurkha Company. The driver, still upset by his close call, had to be told again and again to keep his speed down, the wounded on the deck above the engine were clinging on as best they could, and the soldiers following were always in danger of being left behind if the tank went too quickly. The two tanks, with the survivors of the Company arrived at the Battalion HQ just after the final Japanese attack was repulsed. Because of the toll that B Company and Singh’s troop had taken, the Battalion HQ’s men had been able to fend the Japanese off.

Singh and Limbu found themselves in front of the Battalion CO being congratulated on their work. A strong Japanese force had crossed further up-river and made a flanking attack all along 20th Brigade’s side. While B Company had taken the worst of it, the rest of the Battalion had also been attacked. Lt Col Orgil wanted Singh, with Limbu, to support the Signals Platoon as they re-established communications with the other Companies. Limbu was now commanding B Company, whose losses were made up to some degree by volunteers from the Administration and Pioneer Platoons. While the men had a chance to replenish their ammunition, and get some water, Singh and Limbu, with the Lieutenant commanding the Signallers, worked out how they would go about following their orders and get the Battalion’s cohesion back together.

 

[MattII]

Were they able to recover their third tank?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I wonder if they have these at Rgt HQ?

Would be very useful in the case of a human wave attack

I doubt it as only a few were made and it uses 7.92mm Mauser - but would make a mess of any human wave attack what with 4 x BESA firing at a combined rate of 50 rounds a second!

 

[JamesHunter]

And this is why human wave attacks don't work in modern warfare. Still with luck that's thinned out the enemy a little more, hopefully enough that they'll run out of manpower before the allies run out of bullets.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

So we are now into our 3rd Month of heavy fighting in Malaya and the region with Commonwealth forces advancing into Thailand

OTL the Japanese used 3 Divisions in the Assault on Malaya

5th, 18th and later the Imperial Guards (who were responsible for many of the atrocities)

The 56th was due to reinforce the attack but OTL was not required and its sub units used for follow on tasks

Here I suspect it and very likely other have been added to 25th Army as it suffer multiple defeats heavy losses to its fighting units and forced back into Thailand.

So what is the status of the 4 divisions (plus any others fed into the fight) and the 3rd Tank Brigade?

 

[MattII]

And this is why human wave attacks don't work in modern warfare. Still with luck that's thinned out the enemy a little more, hopefully enough that they'll run out of manpower before the allies run out of bullets.

Probably only temporarily until the Japanese rob Peter to pay Paul, bringing in enough troops to beat the British back, at the cost of, say, not finishing off the American in Bataan.

 

[JamesHunter]

Probably only temporarily until the Japanese rob Peter to pay Paul, bringing in enough troops to beat the British back, at the cost of, say, not finishing off the American in Bataan.

It may already be to late, they're clearly suffered very heavy losses and it was a closer run thing than it looked OTL. Move troops.from one front to the other and it could easily cost them both.

 

[MattII]

Move troops.from one front to the other and it could easily cost them both.

Sounds good to me. I don't think it's outside the realms of posibility though, taking troops from a front which is, for the most part, contained to try to prop up one where they're really being pressed.

 

[JamesHunter]

Sounds good to me. I don't think it's outside the realms of posibility though, taking troops from a front which is, for the most part, contained to try to prop up one where they're really being pressed.

Good chance allied subs are in position between the Philippines and Malaya by now. Glug-glug. Which would just make it worse for both fronts...

 

[MattII]

Good chance allied subs are in position between the Philippines and Malaya by now. Glug-glug. Which would just make it worse for both fronts...

Maybe, but for the most part I think they're focussing on starving out the Japanese in Malaya and the DEI (particularly Borneo). Suddenly Japan is finding out it has loans due, but it doesn't have the money to pay them...

 

[Cryhavoc101]

And this is why human wave attacks don't work in modern warfare. Still with luck that's thinned out the enemy a little more, hopefully enough that they'll run out of manpower before the allies run out of bullets.

The Japanese Banzai attack was used because it was successful (until it wasn't) not because the Japanese were nuts....well they were but ....

It is basically a rapid assault intended to defeat an enemy through 'shock action' and had been very successfully used during many of the battles in China and almost certainly reduced casualties that would have occurred in the long run if the battle had slowed down due to a more cautious and firepower based approach allowing teh enemy more time to react.

It worked very well until it didn't - usually in the face of equally well trained opponents and opponents who possessed lots of Automatic weapons and integrated artillery.

This did happen on occasion when they fought some of the better 'German' trained Chinese units who were armed with lots of automatic weapons such as the ZB 27 - which impressed the Japanese so much they built there own version of it the type 96 and later type 99 LMGs

Other nations also used this tactic - the British call it "Going right at em" (often while out numbered) and for them it often worked as well for several centuries (and sometimes not so well but at least they got a marvellous poem by Tennyson) - until it didn't and it pretty much took the Germans to beat that out of them and still they occasionally used it.

And sometimes there is no choice but "To go right at em" - The battles around the mountains of Keren in East Africa, Coles Charge (3rd/502nd PIR) at Carentan in Normandy and several of the hill top assaults during the Falklands war come to mind

I would add that the Japanese in Malaya were well informed as to the firepower of British commonwealth formations compared to for example the Chinese and during the OTL campaign did not for the most part resort to Banzai like attacks but the tactic of outflanking and often sending small units to create roadblocks to the rear of a Commonwealth formation negating much of it forward firepower.

 

[JamesHunter]

Maybe, but for the most part I think they're focussing on starving out the Japanese in Malaya and the DEI (particularly Borneo). Suddenly Japan is finding out it has loans due, but it doesn't have the money to pay them...

Which was true OTL. What Yamamoto said held true for the IJA as well, six months and then allied superiority would tell. It's going to be even worse here because they haven't got lucky, the allies have already launched a counter invasion and even holding the line is going to be very hard.

 

[JamesHunter]

The Japanese Banzai attack was used because it was successful (until it wasn't) not because the Japanese were nuts....well they were but ....

It is basically a rapid assault intended to defeat an enemy through 'shock action' and had been very successfully used during many of the battles in China and almost certainly reduced casualties that would have occurred in the long run if the battle had slowed down due to a more cautious and firepower based approach allowing teh enemy more time to react.

It worked very well until it didn't - usually in the face of equally well trained opponents and opponents who possessed lots of Automatic weapons and integrated artillery.

This did happen on occasion when they fought some of the better 'German' trained Chinese units who were armed with lots of automatic weapons such as the ZB 27 - which impressed the Japanese so much they built there own version of it the type 96 and later type 99 LMGs

Other nations also used this tactic - the British call it "Going right at em" (often while out numbered) and for them it often worked as well for several centuries (and sometimes not so well but at least they got a marvellous poem by Tennyson) - until it didn't and it pretty much took the Germans to beat that out of them and still they occasionally used it.

And sometimes there is no choice but "To go right at em" - The battles around the mountains of Keren in East Africa, Coles Charge (3rd/502nd PIR) at Carentan in Normandy and several of the hill top assaults during the Falklands war come to mind

I would add that the Japanese in Malaya were well informed as to the firepower of British commonwealth formations compared to for example the Chinese and during the OTL campaign did not for the most part resort to Banzai like attacks but the tactic of outflanking and often sending small units to create roadblocks to the rear of a Commonwealth formation negating much of it forward firepower.

Clearly this commander didn't get the briefing on the best way to fight the British.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Clearly this commander didn't get the briefing on the best way to fight the British.

Or found that the British had learned how to counter that manoeuvre. Which I think is part of thisTL.

Edited for typo

 

[vetinari]

And this is why human wave attacks don't work in modern warfare. Still with luck that's thinned out the enemy a little more, hopefully enough that they'll run out of manpower before the allies run out of bullets.

Actually, human wave attacks do work in modern warfare, if they are followed up with successive waves of troops, as the Iranian Revolutionary Guards found against the Iraqis (primarily because their first waves which attained the objective were not followed up).