Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

TBH reading back through that bit I feel like Lord Nutfield got a bit of a thumb in the eye from Lord Beaverbrook they both took a dislike to each other especially when Beaverbrook took Castle Broomwich from his organisation when he was MAP.

I mean it needed to be done because the whole shadow factory was a massive mess. But I get the feeling if Beaverbrook see how poor the Crusader performs he will ream Nutfield.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
While there can be no doubt that the meeting of the Tank Board is indicative of the better situation that the British are, in regards to tank production ITTL, it also shows a number of faults in the basic situation vis a vis armoured vehicle production ITTL. First of is the failure to include members of the end users in the deliberations, as there should be at least one permanent member who has both seen action recently in the group. The second is the failure to combine all armoured vehicles under one board, that is tanks, armoured cars, self propelled guns, tracked and wheeled armoured personnel carriers, and specialist armoured vehicles. As only that way can there be an integrated and efficient allocation of industrial resources made. The introduction of the new Victor, which will be given suitable upgrades, viable in combat until the end of the war, and post war outside of Europe. Along with being a valuable export to lesser nations, in the post war world. The major advantage right now, is the lack of a major campaign that requires large numbers of tanks in Europe. Until the British along side the Americans invade ether France or Italy, the British can exchange their older tanks for the new Victor, releasing the old vehicles for transfer to the Far East, where they will remain better than anything the Japanese have at present, and possibly up until the end of the war. Stopping production of the Crusader would be a mistake, while its servers no use as a combat weapon, its use in the training role, enables the British to send more tanks to the Soviet Union, and ensures that before they get the tanks that they are going to fight in. Crews can receive a thorough training in the basics of armoured warfare, and maintaining a tank in the field. As for the Churchill, I am sure that once all the bugs have been fixed, and given the attention of Hobart, it will as it did IOTL, find a role as a base for numerous specialist vehicles. As for the replacement for the Victor, I would expect that by the end of 1944, something like OTL Centurion will be coming off the production lines.

RR.
 
I could also see it being deployed in less-likely-to-got-shot-at roles like SPAAG and APC duties. ARVs too perhaps.
 
I could also see it being deployed in less-likely-to-got-shot-at roles like SPAAG and APC duties. ARVs too perhaps.
Would make sense though would require a bit of a redesign on the Hull.

Also I could only see that as a bit of a stop gap. You don't want to run into the same issues as say the modern T-14 Hull.
 
Really? Why?


I haven't been following the news on the Armata. What's the issue in question?
To name a few Used an old Porsche panzer engine in it for one which is why one of the few active ones broke down in a parade, for another the whole hull is going to be used for things like APC, SPG, ambulance and Tripple A to name a few a full tank hull is not a effective or cost effective idea here. Also the electronics are last gen french ones pulled off their tanks when they got an upgrade.
 
To name a few Used an old Porsche panzer engine in it for one which is why one of the few active ones broke down in a parade, for another the whole hull is going to be used for things like APC, SPG, ambulance and Tripple A to name a few a full tank hull is not a effective or cost effective idea here. Also the electronics are last gen french ones pulled off their tanks when they got an upgrade.
The highlighted part isn't necessarily a bad idea. Some SPAAGs use outdated tank hulls, plus the Namer is a tank hull converted into an APC. Of course, even if the hull itself is pointless for conversion (too much heavy armour), a number of vehicles could use the same drivetrain in a new hull.
 
At previous meetings it had been agreed that a heavy infantry tank, carrying the 17-pdr gun should be developed. Among the ideas was to look into the possibility of adopting the American T1 (a proposed 50-ton tank with the 3-inch M7 gun). The problem of a designing a tank big enough, with the 4-inch armour needed, weighing about 50 tons, even with the new Rolls Royce Meteor engine, reliability of the automotive parts would be problematic, as would the ability to transport it. Therefore, the idea had then been changed to adapting a cruiser tank to take an enlarged turret capable of handling the weight and power of the new gun.

Richardson had been working with Carden at Vickers and knew that the Victor with the 75mm HV gun would be more than adequate. Work on the alternative turret by Stothert and Pitt and the continuing involvement of ‘The Old Gang’ was beyond the Major-General’s grasp. Whatever would come of the man-hours of design and construction was ultimately a complete waste of time and money.

Well, maybe both sides can come to a compromise via upgunning the Victor with the shell casing of the 75mm HV but using 17pdr projectiles for greater armor penetration! :p

It's still early enough in the development and production cycle that there wouldn't be too much disruption in doing so, after all...

also this hasn't been threadmarked btw
 
Looking forward to see how the Japanese operation continue to unravel in SEA.

Oh, and Allan, I think you missed the threadmark for last update mate.
 
12 February 1942. Kastellorizo, Greece.
12 February 1942. Kastellorizo, Greece.

The 7 Australian Division, with the Commandoes and the Poles, were finishing up preparation for taking the fight to the Italian held islands. The Royal Navy’s surface and submarine fleet had put a firm cordon around Rhodes and Karpathos, while the RAF had attempted to suppress the Italian garrison and airfields.

The previous February an attempt to capture the small island of Castelrosso (the Italian name for Kastellorizo) had failed miserably. This time the force was large enough, with plenty of rehearsals to make sure all the elements worked together. Admiral Cunningham had the battleships HMS Queen Elizabeth and Valiant, with cruisers and destroyers on hand to intercept any Italian Navy interference. The final pieces of the puzzle were the arrival back of HMS Formidable from Ceylon, now carrying Martlet fighters along with Albacores and Fulmars, and a clear weather window.

HMS Karanja and Prince Charles, each with a battalion (40 and 41 (RM) Commando) of the Special Service Brigade, were carrying the main invasion force. Three LCT(1)s, each carrying two Valiant I tanks, (one gun and one Close Support tank) were also part of the force, but there was still some doubt about the tanks’ ability to land and get off the beach to support the commandoes. The Greek destroyer Vasilissa Olga was part of the close escort force, and carried a company of Greek troops who would be landed later to regain the island for the Greek people.

The Royal Navy had formed a Levant Schooner Flotilla from various caïques and other small vessels, and these had been used to reconnoitre the area. Some of the Long Range Desert Group men, re-tasked with the same principle of working behind enemy lines providing intelligence, had been landed on Kastellorizo, Kasos, Karpathos and Rhodes.

The report from Kastellorizo was that the Italian garrison was about 250 men. There were a few artillery pieces, mortars and machine guns, covering the approaches to the main town of Kastellorizo. The LRDG had also reported that they hadn’t seen any ship entering the harbour in the previous two weeks and that there was obviously a shortage of water. The report wasn’t able to gauge the morale of the Italian troops or whether they’d be open to a negotiated surrender.

Command of the operation had been given to Rear-Admiral Philip Vian RN. He commanded Force B: the cruisers HMS Naiad (flying his flag), HMS Euryalus and the destroyers HMS Sikh, HMS Kipling HMS Kingston, HMS Foxhound and HMS Gurkha, along with RHS Vasilissa Olga. The intention of the admiral had been to use the ships’ guns as a warning, then to issue a call to surrender. Colonel Robert Laycock, commanding the invasion force asked instead for his men to be able to invade the island by surprise. All the rehearsals only meant so much, the Commandoes would have to go in against opposition at some point. Having a real test was necessary before more difficult islands were invaded. Vian reluctantly agreed, and so long before dawn the commandoes were loaded into their landing craft and set off for shore.

Naval gunfire support was still essential and the LRDG had identified the main Italian artillery position, which would be engaged by two of the destroyers as soon as the landing party lost the element of surprise. Air support from HMS Formidable was to consist primarily in preventing any Italian air force interference. A section of Albacores, loaded with bombs, would also be available should the need arise.

As the landing craft made for shore, they were spotted by an Italian sentry who set of the warning by firing a flare. That was the signal to the gunnery officers on HMS Kipling and Kingston to open fire with their main armament. Three salvos of twelve 4.7-inch guns from the two destroyers amounted to a devastating demonstration of fire-power, something that the Italians had no answer for. When the first wave of Commandoes landed, they encountered only limited resistance.

The Italian garrison surrendered very quickly. The Major commanding the garrison got off a radio message that his men had offered some resistance, but against the overwhelming odds, and to protect the civilian population, he was surrendering to the British forces. As this message was sent in the clear, and with white flags appearing, the Commandoes had the fairly easy task of marshalling the Italian troops to a central point where they were disarmed and processed.

A couple of minesweepers were prepared to enter the port, and the Italian senior naval officer was sent out by boat with the map of the Italian mines. By noon the Greek destroyer Vasilissa Olga had entered the harbour and the Greek troops officially took control of the first Greek island to be liberated from the Axis forces. Some of the Levant Schooners arrived shortly afterwards with supplies of water and other essentials. The Italian prisoners were shipped off the island onboard HMS Karanja, to join their many comrades already in captivity.

From Colonel Laycock’s point of view the exercise had gone pretty much as well as possible. A full report would be made, but his men had been landed in the correct positions, and their training had paid off in both the speed and sureness of taking their objectives. If there had been greater resistance, then some casualties would probably have been taken, but other than a couple of broken bones, and a few cuts and bruises the Medical Orderlies had nothing much to deal with.

As suspected, there were problems with unloading some of the tanks from the Landing Craft Tank. One LCT had found a smooth enough area, and its tanks had been able to get off the beach and onto the ‘road’. The use of the heavy Valiant I tanks wasn’t the best choice, light Tetrarch DD tanks would probably have been a better fit for the mule tracks that counted as roads. The second LCT had run aground too far from the beach to be able to unload the tanks, which weren’t fitted with the Duplex Drive system. Although waterproofed, the tanks wouldn’t have been able to ‘swim’ to the shore. The last LCT had reached the beach, but the tanks weren’t able to climb the rocky slope off the beach. The two tanks had reversed back onto the LCT and it moved them to where the first LCT had successfully unloaded its tanks.

Having four tanks on the island was overkill, but when the first two reached the place where the Italian prisoners were gathered, the crews noted the dismay on the soldiers’ faces. Even if they had put up the fullest resistance possible, the Italian troops had nothing that could easily counter the tanks. The British tanks which had cleared North Africa had gained something of a reputation among the Italian troops, that resistance was futile.
 
Hmm good operation so far but it is giving them a bit of a false sense of confidence they didn’t run into heavy fire. Still a good exercise and good propaganda and infomation that can be passed back for future operational and logistics development.

Also the Greeks will be happy since you can pass the islands to them and use greek third and second line troops as light garrison
 
Hmm good operation so far but it is giving them a bit of a false sense of confidence they didn’t run into heavy fire. Still a good exercise and good propaganda and infomation that can be passed back for future operational and logistics development.

Also the Greeks will be happy since you can pass the islands to them and use greek third and second line troops as light garrison
I wouldn't say false sense cause the officers treated it as a training exercise as you said but they also realized it could have gone horribly wrong if there was a good organized resistance
 
Well its a start and unlike OTL better to learn these things now on an easy mission than be trying to unfrak yourself in the middle of Dieppe. Hopefully with things going better and plenty of places to do your learning other than the French coast that particular debacle might be avoided this time. Although I suppose at some point an effort to take a port needs to be made just to prove it can't be done.
 
Well its a start and unlike OTL better to learn these things now on an easy mission than be trying to unfrak yourself in the middle of Dieppe. Hopefully with things going better and plenty of places to do your learning other than the French coast that particular debacle might be avoided this time. Although I suppose at some point an effort to take a port needs to be made just to prove it can't be done.
Sooner or later they're going to have to try something like Dieppe somewhere. Small scale assaults are all well and good but they do need to learn how to do them on a divisional or larger scale as well, and attempt to seize a port. That initial attempt is still likely to suffer heavy casualties.
 
Sooner or later they're going to have to try something like Dieppe somewhere. Small scale assaults are all well and good but they do need to learn how to do them on a divisional or larger scale as well, and attempt to seize a port. That initial attempt is still likely to suffer heavy casualties.
Still if they at least know the how they can maybe avoid it being an utter debacle. Also if they can at least keep the death toll down this time?
 
Top