Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
At a unit level there are only so many times a Matilda II and it's crew can roam that battlefield watching everything the Japanese throw at it bounce off before they get cocky and that won't end well.



I'm sure the Australians and Americans who got to dig the Japanese out of various fixed defensive positions in OTL will be delighted to hear that. Except the won't because they got in half by a Nambu in a log bunker that they didn't spot until too late.
The Japanese absolutely know how to prepare defensive positions in jungle terrain and were very good at it.
You're correct that a good defensive position requires time to establish but if they choose they have the space to do what the Germans did so well in Italy and fight delaying actions as they fall back onto prepared defensive positions. But this is dependent on them accepting that they are on the defensive in this theatre at least.

Sir I am in complete agreement with you that trying to dig out Japanese soldiers from well prepared defensive positions, is at best difficult and at worst a nightmare. However the Japanese do have a number of problems in establishing strong defensive positions in Malaya, that they didn’t on the various islands they fought on. They do not have a surplus of troops to construct the positions, and so they are going to be reliant on local labour, forced or voluntary. And given just how many hearts and minds there were able to win, I suspect that the majority of the labour is going to be forced. However without adequate food for both the guards and labourers, will not be working efficiently. Unlike on the islands, there will always be a flank that the British can turn, to get around any defensive position. And having used locals to build their positions, there will always have been eyes watching, and those eyes will be able to report what they have seen, and where it is. Nor unless there is a massive improvement in Japanese logistics, will they have the weapons and ammunition to spare, to fully equip such positions. Is it going to be difficult and costly to dig out the Japanese of course, but it will not be impossible. But the ability of the Japanese to build such positions is going to be very much reduced in comparison to that they had in the Pacific Islands, and more like what occurred during the retreat from the frontier to Mandala and Rangoon IOTL. Where once the British managed to penetrate the initial line, they only faced field fortifications from then on.

RR.
 
IIRC from OTL the 2pdr tank guns proved useful in taking on bunkers because they were accurate & not explosive allowing them to keep firing until the infantry were close enough to put grenades through the firing slits.
Although I'm sure the infantry would have preferred something to blow up the bunker before they got near it.
 
True German subs were filled with Cans, dried, smoked foods and sausages from what I remember.

Combined with all other smells it made the devils own stink.
On that topic, might allied submariners in the far east not complement their beans with durian desserts?
 
True German subs were filled with Cans, dried, smoked foods and sausages from what I remember.

Combined with all other smells it made the devils own stink.
wait, no freezers on board? i know that the dutch subs had freezers since the early 20s, it is how the sub chiefs developed the A/C for the boats within a year of them being installed(by hooking the ventilation to to the cooling circuit)(for the boats patrolling in the tropics)
 
wait, no freezers on board? i know that the dutch subs had freezers since the early 20s, it is how the sub chiefs developed the A/C for the boats within a year of them being installed(by hooking the ventilation to to the cooling circuit)(for the boats patrolling in the tropics)
To my knowledge it was limited by space though I'm going off memory.

Could someone confirm this for me.
 
At a unit level there are only so many times a Matilda II and it's crew can roam that battlefield watching everything the Japanese throw at it bounce off before they get cocky and that won't end well.
Apart from the veterans who've already been fire-bombed and the like.

I'm sure the Australians and Americans who got to dig the Japanese out of various fixed defensive positions in OTL will be delighted to hear that. Except the won't because they got in half by a Nambu in a log bunker that they didn't spot until too late.
The Japanese absolutely know how to prepare defensive positions in jungle terrain and were very good at it.
You're correct that a good defensive position requires time to establish but if they choose they have the space to do what the Germans did so well in Italy and fight delaying actions as they fall back onto prepared defensive positions. But this is dependent on them accepting that they are on the defensive in this theatre at least.
Except the Japanese don't have any of the resources (including time or man-power) needed to put together anything solid.
 
Apart from the veterans who've already been fire-bombed and the like.
I meant precisely the veterans who have taken a Molotov or two and come through unscathed. The veterans who have seen the crispy remains of their mates on the other hand... but that implies knocked out British tanks.

Except the Japanese don't have any of the resources (including time or man-power) needed to put together anything solid.

They don't have the time or resources to create the Maginot line but infantry can create a system of trenches and log bunkers in days if provided with machetes and spades, what do you think the British defensive positions that bled the IJA during the initial invasion were? As the Japanese have just demonstrated that's not enough to stop a combined arms assault alone but it will slow them down and bleed the attacker while better defensive systems with communication trenches, anti tank ditches etc are created on the next terrain feature and the one after that all way back to Vietnam if necessary. But of course that requires the IJA to be in that mindset, sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't. It's authors perogative as there is precedent on both sides.
 
I meant precisely the veterans who have taken a Molotov or two and come through unscathed. The veterans who have seen the crispy remains of their mates on the other hand... but that implies knocked out British tanks.
If you have to bail out at all, something went wrong.

They don't have the time or resources to create the Maginot line but infantry can create a system of trenches and log bunkers in days if provided with machetes and spades, what do you think the British defensive positions that bled the IJA during the initial invasion were?
Mostly unprepared or hastily prepared, but backed up with grit and tanks.

As the Japanese have just demonstrated that's not enough to stop a combined arms assault alone but it will slow them down and bleed the attacker while better defensive systems with communication trenches, anti tank ditches etc are created on the next terrain feature and the one after that all way back to Vietnam if necessary. But of course that requires the IJA to be in that mindset, sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't. It's authors perogative as there is precedent on both sides.
I would point you at Ramp-Rat's post, which goes into rather greater detail on the difficulties the Japanese will face trying to construct those defences.
 
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To my knowledge it was limited by space though I'm going off memory.

Could someone confirm this for me.
Depended on the U-boat type apparently. Early VII and IX had a small refrigerator but no freezer, so had to rely on cured meat which hung wherever there was space. Later marks had freezers and air con and so on.

Nice picture Here of meat hanging in the sleeping area of a Type IX U-boat. I say 'nice' but it looks horrific, particularly after a few weeks at sea.
 
Depended on the U-boat type apparently. Early VII and IX had a small refrigerator but no freezer, so had to rely on cured meat which hung wherever there was space. Later marks had freezers and air con and so on.
It's worth remembering that the Type VII and Type IX U-Boats were essentially upgrades of WWI U-Boats to allow for deeper diving. The Germans were still recovering lost building experience from the post WWI ban on submarines when they designed them.
 
11 February 1942. London, England.
11 February 1942. London, England.

The eleventh meeting of the third Tank Board had been convened and, as usual, the agenda had many items that needed to be discussed. The chairman, Geoffrey Burton, formerly of the British Small Arms Company, as Director General of Tanks and Transport (DGTT) had two groups in front of him.

The Ministry of Supply team, which under Lord Beaverbrook had appointed two new industrialists to the Tank Board, Oliver Lucas and George Usher. Lucas, who firm produced electronic components, had been appointed Controller General of Research and Development (CGRD). Usher, from the firm International Combustion, which produced steam generating plant, was Director General of Tank Supply (DGTS), responsible for tank production. Burton’s deputy (DDGTT) Major-General John Crawford continued to attend the meetings, although Usher had taken over his role in Tank Supply.

The War Office team was led by Lieutenant-General Gordon Macready, Assistant Chief of the Imperial General Staff (ACIGS), with Major-General Ronald Weeks as his deputy and Brigadier Alexander Richardson (Director Armoured Fighting Vehicles (DAFV). The only independent member of the Tank Board was Colonel George Green, the American Liaison Officer regarding design and production issues on Armoured Fighting Vehicles.

Beaverbrook’s instructions were for the Tank Board to ‘consider General Staff specifications, types and programmes of armoured fighting vehicles, including their armament, and to take decisions thereon. They were also to receive design and production progress reports.’ Burton had been industrious about the business, and was trying to resolve the fundamental problem of whether the Tank Board was advisory (as originally constituted) or executive (as Beaverbrook desired).

With both Lucas and Usher new to their jobs, and no previous experience of tank design or production, Macready and Richardson were concerned that the ‘customers’ of the tanks, the Royal Armoured Corps, were playing second fiddle to the ‘suppliers’ of tanks. The army knew what it needed, how many it needed and when they were needed. On the current agenda was yet another example of the tail wagging the dog.

At previous meetings it had been agreed that a heavy infantry tank, carrying the 17-pdr gun should be developed. Among the ideas was to look into the possibility of adopting the American T1 (a proposed 50-ton tank with the 3-inch M7 gun). The problem of a designing a tank big enough, with the 4-inch armour needed, weighing about 50 tons, even with the new Rolls Royce Meteor engine, reliability of the automotive parts would be problematic, as would the ability to transport it. Therefore, the idea had then been changed to adapting a cruiser tank to take an enlarged turret capable of handling the weight and power of the new gun.

Richardson had been working with Carden at Vickers and knew that the Victor with the 75mm HV gun would be more than adequate. Work on the alternative turret by Stothert and Pitt and the continuing involvement of ‘The Old Gang’ was beyond the Major-General’s grasp. Whatever would come of the man-hours of design and construction was ultimately a complete waste of time and money.

What the civilians were thinking of would probably be better off as a self-propelled anti-tank gun, but that would be the Royal Artillery’s responsibility, rather than the Royal Armoured Corps. There were enough examples of Italian and German attempts at creating a mobile anti-tank platform with protection for the crew to see just exactly what the options were. The army wanted a tank that was mobile, protected and had a good dual-purpose gun. The Victor ticked all those boxes, and probably would for the next few years. Carden was already working on the follow-on tank to replace the Victor, and again the army knew that there was a good chance that would be just the thing when it was needed, as the A9, A10, A11 and Valiant had been so far.

The one particular fear for the Army was Beaverbrook’s obsession with sending aid to Russia. The Soviets only wanted Vickers tanks, although they regretfully had accepted Matilda IIs as well. If a large number of Vickers tanks were being sent to Murmansk, there was the danger of the British Army would be left with Nuffield Crusaders and Vauxhall Churchills in the cruiser and infantry tank roles. Neither of these even had the 6-pdr gun, never mind the 17-pdr. From General Alan Brook (CIGS) all the way down to Richardson, the army was invested in having one all-purpose tank. Designing another tank around the 17-pdr gun just seemed wasteful.

It had been understandable in the late 1930s to increase the war potential of industry by bringing new firms into tank production. The Matilda II was the only real success, although the A13mk4 hadn’t been too bad. It was clear to the ‘customer’ that all available production should go into the tank that the customer wanted. There were certainly other uses for the Crusader and Churchill hulls for specialised vehicles, but what the Armoured Divisions wanted was 75mm HV armed Victors.

In 1941, with great efforts, UK suppliers had produced over 5300 tanks. It was expected that in 1942, that figure could reach about 9500 tanks. The army wanted the vast majority of those tanks to be Valiant IIs and Victors. It would grudgingly accept Crusaders and Churchills, but only as a minority. The Tank Brigades that were converting to Churchills weren’t thrilled that the Churchill wasn’t any great improvement on the Matilda II, except in thicker armour. The expanding Armoured Brigades receiving the Crusaders were in some ways glad just to be getting tanks to train on. As a training tank the Crusader was fine, but the Russians had rejected them for good reason.

Matilda IIs were still showing their worth in Malaya, and the American M3 Light tanks were proving acceptable against the Japanese. The Australians were enthusiastic about the 75mm gun on the Grants they were getting, and the Indians and South Africans would probably accept them too, until the newer M4 arrived later in the year. There was no doubt that sooner rather than later, the British Army would once more be facing the Wehrmacht in Europe. There weren’t many tank crews who wanted to do that in a cruiser tank armed with a 2-pdr gun, nor an unreliable monstrosity designed to fit the 17-pdr. There was a better tank with a better gun available, the civilians had to understand that, otherwise more time and effort would be wasted, only to lead to unnecessary casualties among the Royal Armoured Corps, and the army in general.
 
So the Victor becomes the British Pz. IV - good enough to last all war with upgrades.
No, the Valiant is the Pz. IV equivalent, the Victor is closer to the Panther. Slightly inferior in terms of the gun, and possibly the armour, but seeing production a year earlier, and being thoroughly tested, is almost certainly going to be far more reliable, which is much better.
 
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No, the Valiant is the Pz. IV equivalent, the Victor is closer to the Panther.
in capabilities yes but I meant in longevity - essentially the Valiant / Victor fill the same slot as the PzIV did for the Germans. In terms of when it arrives the "alt-Centurion" in development will fill the gap of the British Panther but will be more capable. Victor is really a PzIVH in terms of how it fits in the German tank nladder.
 
No, the Valiant is the Pz. IV equivalent, the Victor is closer to the Panther. Slightly inferior in terms of the gun, and possibly the armour, but seeing production a year earlier, and being thoroughly tested, is almost certainly going to be far more reliable, which is much better.
Sounds more like the Comet (2 years early) as it will be smaller but more reliable than a Panther. Maybe a western T34/85? Or Sherman 76mm.
 
Sounds more like the Comet (2 years early) as it will be smaller but more reliable than a Panther. Maybe a western T34/85? Or Sherman 76mm.
Possibly.

I do wonder if Carden will look to stick a de-rated Griffon in the alt-Centurion, rather than sticking with the Meteor? I can't imagine our man John being happy if he'd have to stick with the older engine. I'd also expect a better range.
 
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Sounds more like the Comet (2 years early) as it will be smaller but more reliable than a Panther. Maybe a western T34/85? Or Sherman 76mm.
For me the Victor is somewhere between the Cromwell and Comet. The 75mm HV isn't quite the 77mm OTL, but much improved over the 6-pdr/75mm that the Cromwell had. It is the Cromwell's preferred engine, though not with Christie suspension. Some of the books that I've been using made the point that if Montgomery's 8th Army at El Alamein had Cromwells rather than Crusaders, then perhaps the Shermans wouldn't have been quite as crucial. We kept building tanks long past their expiry date, and their replacements came too late. Cromwells in North Africa, then Comets in Normandy I think would have made the 'Tank Crisis' go away to some degree. Here, we have decent A9/A10/A11s in France, Valiants instead of Valentines/Crusaders in NA, then Victors instead of Cromwells, then the alt-centurion in time for Normandy (or wherever).
Allan.
 
@allanpcameron

Thanks for clarification. Please correct me if I've misunderstood but it seems that the Victor falls in capabilities between the late model German PzIV and Panther.

No problem as it will be more reliable than either and more numerous too.

I look forward to the alt-Centurion. Comet mobility, Centurion armour (or close), gun (?)
 
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