Depth running is fairly easy to test. The firing pin is fairly easy to test. The magnetic exploder is a bit more complicated to test, but not impossible.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
And the torpedoes passed those tests under BuOrd test conditions i.e. dummy warheads etc.
It was only when operating in actual war conditions that all of the problems started emerging. And the sub crews then had to fire & retrieve war shots to start to identify problems which was probably technically illegal.
13 January 1942. Kuala Krai, Malaya.
allanpcameron
Donor
13 January 1942. Kuala Krai, Malaya.
2nd Malaya Brigade (2nd Bn Loyal Regiment, 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders, and 2nd Bn 17 Dogra Regiment) had been assigned to 9th Indian Division, allowing 8th Indian Brigade to be withdrawn to Kuantan to rest and refit.
All three battalions, regular troops, had been in Malaya since before the war had started in September 1939, mostly used as garrison troops on Singapore Island. Now they stood alongside the men of 9th Indian Brigade and 22nd Indian Brigade, both of which had been involved in the fighting almost continually since 8 December.
Major-General Arthur Barstow and Lt General Lewis Heath (GOC III Indian Corps) had thought long and hard about what to do on the east coast. Currently their position was solid, and the initial Japanese advances had been blunted. The Japanese had obviously wanted to airfields around Kota Bahru, but these had been destroyed before being abandoned. The Japanese had based their aircraft instead at airfields in Thailand. The main thrust of the Japanese attack was on the west coast, where 11th Indian Division was slowly falling back.
Therein lay the problem. As the Japanese progressed south on the west coast, Barstow’s force was being isolated on the east coast. The main route of supply, and retreat, was the railway that ran from Kuala Krai south through the middle of the country to Gemas. Here the railway connected with the line that ran east to west, ultimately connecting Kuala Lumpur and Singapore. The other problem was the fear of another Japanese landing on the east coast. Part of the reason 8th Indian Brigade had been sent to Kuantan for R&R was to make sure the airfield there was completely protected.
There was evidence that a Japanese column was making its way down the east coast, though the nature of the terrain and lack of roads should slow it down. Lt.Col. James Mackellar (CO 4th Battalion, Federated Malay States Volunteer Forces) reported that he had made contact with B Company of 1st Battalion Mysore Infantry which had retreated first to Kuala Terengganu then to Kuala Dungan. It was here that one of 4th Battalion patrols had discovered them. The Indian State troops were in poor condition, and reported that they had been chased much of the way by Japanese troops. When they had made contact, Mackellar had moved two of his Companies to Kuala Dungan to make sure all crossings of the Dungun River had been destroyed and to try to prevent any crossings.
Brigadier Francis Fraser (CO 2nd Malaya Brigade) had proposed to Barstow that his men were fresh enough to mount a limited counterattack to push the Japanese back across the River Kelantan. The previous attempt to do so in December had failed, even with tank support. Barstow wanted to keep his freshest troops in readiness for the whatever happened next. His fear was that Fraser’s units would be gutted in a counterattack for no great progress. The limited counterattacks there had been consistently found the Japanese loath to surrender, they literally fought to the death, often taking as many Indian troops with them as possible.
From Barstow’s point of view, one which he found support from Heath, was that the situation was currently stable. Three fresh battalions had allowed tired troops time to rest. The Japanese still seemed to be putting their greatest effort into the attacks on the west coast. As long as 11th Indian Division didn’t completely collapse, 9th Indian Division could hold in place for at least another week, all being well.
The tanks that had been withdrawn to Gemas for repair and to rest the crews had returned along with the 2nd Malaya Brigade. What had begun as a Squadron of eighteen tanks had been reduced to two troops of three, meaning that Barstow had a total of six Matilda II infantry tanks at his disposal. These precious vehicles were being kept alongside his reserves. When the time came, those six tanks could make all the difference.
2nd Malaya Brigade (2nd Bn Loyal Regiment, 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders, and 2nd Bn 17 Dogra Regiment) had been assigned to 9th Indian Division, allowing 8th Indian Brigade to be withdrawn to Kuantan to rest and refit.
All three battalions, regular troops, had been in Malaya since before the war had started in September 1939, mostly used as garrison troops on Singapore Island. Now they stood alongside the men of 9th Indian Brigade and 22nd Indian Brigade, both of which had been involved in the fighting almost continually since 8 December.
Major-General Arthur Barstow and Lt General Lewis Heath (GOC III Indian Corps) had thought long and hard about what to do on the east coast. Currently their position was solid, and the initial Japanese advances had been blunted. The Japanese had obviously wanted to airfields around Kota Bahru, but these had been destroyed before being abandoned. The Japanese had based their aircraft instead at airfields in Thailand. The main thrust of the Japanese attack was on the west coast, where 11th Indian Division was slowly falling back.
Therein lay the problem. As the Japanese progressed south on the west coast, Barstow’s force was being isolated on the east coast. The main route of supply, and retreat, was the railway that ran from Kuala Krai south through the middle of the country to Gemas. Here the railway connected with the line that ran east to west, ultimately connecting Kuala Lumpur and Singapore. The other problem was the fear of another Japanese landing on the east coast. Part of the reason 8th Indian Brigade had been sent to Kuantan for R&R was to make sure the airfield there was completely protected.
There was evidence that a Japanese column was making its way down the east coast, though the nature of the terrain and lack of roads should slow it down. Lt.Col. James Mackellar (CO 4th Battalion, Federated Malay States Volunteer Forces) reported that he had made contact with B Company of 1st Battalion Mysore Infantry which had retreated first to Kuala Terengganu then to Kuala Dungan. It was here that one of 4th Battalion patrols had discovered them. The Indian State troops were in poor condition, and reported that they had been chased much of the way by Japanese troops. When they had made contact, Mackellar had moved two of his Companies to Kuala Dungan to make sure all crossings of the Dungun River had been destroyed and to try to prevent any crossings.
Brigadier Francis Fraser (CO 2nd Malaya Brigade) had proposed to Barstow that his men were fresh enough to mount a limited counterattack to push the Japanese back across the River Kelantan. The previous attempt to do so in December had failed, even with tank support. Barstow wanted to keep his freshest troops in readiness for the whatever happened next. His fear was that Fraser’s units would be gutted in a counterattack for no great progress. The limited counterattacks there had been consistently found the Japanese loath to surrender, they literally fought to the death, often taking as many Indian troops with them as possible.
From Barstow’s point of view, one which he found support from Heath, was that the situation was currently stable. Three fresh battalions had allowed tired troops time to rest. The Japanese still seemed to be putting their greatest effort into the attacks on the west coast. As long as 11th Indian Division didn’t completely collapse, 9th Indian Division could hold in place for at least another week, all being well.
The tanks that had been withdrawn to Gemas for repair and to rest the crews had returned along with the 2nd Malaya Brigade. What had begun as a Squadron of eighteen tanks had been reduced to two troops of three, meaning that Barstow had a total of six Matilda II infantry tanks at his disposal. These precious vehicles were being kept alongside his reserves. When the time came, those six tanks could make all the difference.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
While it may seam to make sense for the British to construct a large tank production facility. Much as the Soviets and Americans did during WWII. Unlike the Soviets who were forced by the Germans invasion to move the majority of their industrial production East, and thus it made sense to them to establish mega factories on virgin lands. This was very much in accordance with Soviet thinking and policy from pre war, hence Tankograd, which massively expanded an existing large caterpillar tractor factory. While in America, which up until the war had only small and disconnected tank production facilities. It was far simpler given that their large automotive production facilities were switching to various wheeled military requirements, and their tradition of large integrated facilities. Too, given the availability of land, labour, resources and money, to build new armoured vehicle production/assembly facilities, rather than trying to adapt existing facilities. Britain is in a very different position, it doesn’t have the tradition of building large integrated factories, other than a few American companies that established such, to be able to get around the Imperial Preference regulations. The British government prior to WWII, looked around for ways to rearm, while trying not to derail the British economy which was steadily improving after the financial crash of 1929. The government chose to use facilities that were being underused, as this both allowed the government to increase production of armaments, while increasing employment in depressed areas. Britain was ‘lucky’ in that thanks to its previous industrial dominance and subsequent decline, it had a large number of underused heavy industrial facilities. Especially in railway locomotive production, which had both large buildings, machine shops and heavy cranes. With a reserve of experienced staff, that can be retained from building locomotives to tanks, of which the majority being older, will not be subjected to conscription.
There is also the fact that, Britain is not producing just one type of armoured vehicle, it is producing an increasing variety of armoured vehicles, both tracked and wheeled. From the ubiquitous Bren Gun Carrier, various armoured cars, SPG’s, the beginning of the numerous ‘funnies,’ and more than one type of MBT, though they are not at present called that. While both the Soviets and Americans were fantastic at producing thousands of essentially one type of tank, they various T34’s or M4 Shermans. They were not so good at producing some of the more specialist armoured equipment, such as AEV, bridge layers, and amphibious tanks. Remember the Sherman DD, was essentially an American tank that the British adapted, and supplied back to the Americans. It makes total sense for the British to concentrate on what they are good at, and leave the Americans to get on with what they are good at. While the Soviets might prefer the latest British tanks as lend lease to American tanks, unless the British have a surplus of tanks to their requirements. Once the Americans get their production up to speed, the British will insist that they don’t have any tanks to spare, so it’s going to have to be American tanks Uncle Joe. In the same way, once this Time Lines equivalent of the M4 Sherman is available, the British will be more than happy to accept it, especially for service in the Far East theatre. ITTL Britain is in a much better position in regards to tanks, than it was IOTL. It might be in a position that it can supply all of its tank requirements in the European theatre from its own production. Only requiring American half tracks as infantry carriers, and utility vehicles, for its armoured and mechanised devisions. While in the Far East other than specialist armoured equipment, American tanks will be more than sufficient against the inferior Japanese tanks.
RR.
There is also the fact that, Britain is not producing just one type of armoured vehicle, it is producing an increasing variety of armoured vehicles, both tracked and wheeled. From the ubiquitous Bren Gun Carrier, various armoured cars, SPG’s, the beginning of the numerous ‘funnies,’ and more than one type of MBT, though they are not at present called that. While both the Soviets and Americans were fantastic at producing thousands of essentially one type of tank, they various T34’s or M4 Shermans. They were not so good at producing some of the more specialist armoured equipment, such as AEV, bridge layers, and amphibious tanks. Remember the Sherman DD, was essentially an American tank that the British adapted, and supplied back to the Americans. It makes total sense for the British to concentrate on what they are good at, and leave the Americans to get on with what they are good at. While the Soviets might prefer the latest British tanks as lend lease to American tanks, unless the British have a surplus of tanks to their requirements. Once the Americans get their production up to speed, the British will insist that they don’t have any tanks to spare, so it’s going to have to be American tanks Uncle Joe. In the same way, once this Time Lines equivalent of the M4 Sherman is available, the British will be more than happy to accept it, especially for service in the Far East theatre. ITTL Britain is in a much better position in regards to tanks, than it was IOTL. It might be in a position that it can supply all of its tank requirements in the European theatre from its own production. Only requiring American half tracks as infantry carriers, and utility vehicles, for its armoured and mechanised devisions. While in the Far East other than specialist armoured equipment, American tanks will be more than sufficient against the inferior Japanese tanks.
RR.
I think retrieving unexploded ordnance in a submarine has many issues and "technically illegal" once you'd decided to do it at all would be very much on the irrelevant end of those.
So the Japanese only reached Kuala (end of river in Malay for those who noticed the repeated usage of the word in town names) Dungun.
That is slower than I thought.(I thought there already in a battle at Kuantan, albeit 10 days later than OTL) But then again, the infrastructure on the east coast is (to this day) lags behind the west coast.
Seconded that. Altough perhaps it will be more appropriate if it is done on the 15th of February to mark the official derailment of the Japanese advance.
P/s: I feel like like the Japanese will totally stall (and retreat) once they crossed the FMS border.
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No, it couldn't. De Valera was dead against that sort of thing happening. He turned down the offer of Northern Ireland in return for participation in the war partly because he was terrified of his rural idyll being swamped with British and American money, men and industry.
He turned it down because no Irish politician trusted Churchill to say "Water is Wet" and mean it, certainly not something like shafting NI in or after the War, like others have posted I'm no defender of him, but he didn't operate in a vacuum and had a fairly good idea of what Churchill word was worth to Ireland. His other major concern (given his views on warfare in general) was the exposure that Ireland would face from German bombings with no defences and little spare capacity from the UK to change that.
He also didn't believe the Americans would ever let the UK not defend Irish airspace or stop Anglo-American sailors dying to supply Ireland. Which I've never seen any actual evidence Churchill wanted to do, but I bet it crossed Dev's mind.
The Irish American relationship throughout WW2 was in many ways worse than that of the Anglo-Irish relationship, the US didn’t give a care about Dublins position or concerns. Nor did the U.K. actively defend Irish airspace being very slow to supply either arms or even spares for the aircraft we had, and yes the U.K. did restrict shipping trade to Ireland at periods, hence why Irish shipping was set up.
To be fair Churchill’s word was suspect at this point no matter the nationality. Churchill had good qualities, but an abundance of veracity’s wasn’t one of them.
I recall a story where the USMC tanks at Hue City during the Vietnam war were provided with multiple crews who rotated to keep the tanks in action 24/7
Given that there is probably more than 6 crews left alive and unwounded from that Squadrons 18 crews and supporting echelons from its parent formation we could see the same thing here with 'crews' being rested and the tanks remaining in action.
I have to non-concur with this statement....What about the LVT? Variants of that were absolutely amphibious tanks which would have made all the difference in the world in Normandy. (I am TOTALLY not a fan of the DD Sherman, which should have been replaced on DD with LVTs). How about self-propelled field artillery? Then the 2 1/2 ton 6x6 truck...
marathag
Banned
Marines used those, and Marshall hated them and anything tangential to them.
Uncle Sam's Misguided Children had known by 1943 that opposed landings needed more than just Higgins Boats in the first wave
Would it have made a difference launched under the same conditions as at Omaha or would LVTs just have the same problems with the sea state and the distance to travel?
Assuming these are the LVT4A variant with the same 75mm gun as the Sherman which have been sent to Normandy rather than the Mariannas. Although the open top turret may make them vulnerable below the cliffs of Omaha beach.