Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

Except that there wouldn't be that much more death, because the Allies were actually really good at bombing within the limited range of their fighter escorts. It was the unescorted raids over Germany itself which caused most of the blood.
But until the WAllies can build long range fighters or capture airfields in eastern France they cannot escort daylight strikes into most of Germany. So the Bombing Offensive is delayed and German production less affected.

And a 1943 invasion of France will not have air supremacy.
 
But until the WAllies can build long range fighters or capture airfields in eastern France they cannot escort daylight strikes into most of Germany. So the Bombing Offensive is delayed and German production less affected.

And a 1943 invasion of France will not have air supremacy.
Germany won't have had time to build up the Atlantic Wall nearly as much (and Rommel won't have had time to fix some of the more disastrous oversights), plus they'll be landing with generally better equipment than the Germans, or at least better tanks.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Grand Slam, was an idea that Barnes Wallis had had pre war, along with the idea of attacking the German Ruhr dams. However their wasn’t a bomber in British or anyone else’s service that could carry such a bomb, at the time. This was one of the reasons that BW, was designing his six engine Victory Bomber, in the meantime he came up with the baby Grand Slam, Tall Boy, which could be carried by the new just introduced into service Lancaster. Unfortunately it didn’t have the ceiling to effectively drop a Tall Boy to its best effect, nor were bomb sights of the time accurate enough to hit the dams. So he came up with Upkeep, the bouncing bomb, which was great against the masonry dams, but rubbish against the earth filled gravity dams, they would have been better using Tall Boys. The dams raid was a typical example of a British lash up, which came right on the day, and was never repeated. 617 squadron after some problems including the failure of Operation Garlic, an attack on the Dortmund Ems canal, eventually became using Tall Boy and Grand Slam, a very potent weapon.

The question of whether Poland, Czechoslovak and Austria, can be kept out of Soviet control, is more political than military. And the biggest problem is in regards to Poland, Stalin having been humiliated at the gates of Warsaw in 1920, had a very personal hard on in regards to the Poles. He would not have been upset if the Allies having entered Czechoslovak and Austria, before the Soviets did, had retained their forces there, and thus control over them. It will take the British in particular to force the issue, by refusing to talk with Stalin about the Polish situation, without the Free Polish Government present, and the Soviet Union giving it full recognition. And doing the same with FDR, who thought that he could make decisions with him friend Uncle Joe, about the future of Europe, without the various Europeans being involved. And if the Anglo American forces are deeper into Europe by the summer of 44, they will be in a position to support with air drops any uprising in Warsaw that takes place. Including if there is a German collapse, flying in the Free Polish Government and the Polish Airborne brigade into Warsaw.


RR.
 
Except that there wouldn't be that much more death, because the Allies were actually really good at bombing within the limited range of their fighter escorts. It was the unescorted raids over Germany itself which caused most of the blood.
Over the whole course of the bomber War about 81,000 men were killed from all air forces involved. Now that number is a pretty huge proportion of the around 125,000 aircrew maintained, but it pales in comparison to the over 125,000 casualties sustained by the US alone in the 85 day Normandy campaign.

Even at its most wasteful, the bomber campaign had a lower absolute cost in American lives than did a ground campaign. And it was perceived to be having significant effect on Germany. It’s not surprising that the offensive was maintained even when percentage losses were very high.
 
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Over the whole course of the bomber War about 81,000 men were killed from all air forces involved. Now that number is a pretty huge proportion of the around 125,000 aircrew maintained, but it pales in comparison to the over 125,000 casualties sustained by only the US in the 85 day Normandy campaign.

Even at its most wasteful, the bomber campaign had a lower absolute cost in American lives than did a ground campaign. And it was perceived to be having significant effect on Germany. It’s not surprising that the offensive was maintained even when percentage losses were very high.
The American refusal to send unescorted bombers out after Black Thursday sort of indicates that they'd finally learned their lesson. Mind you, even when they did get fighter escorts, it took Jimmy Doolittle to make them fully effective.
 
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No, Stalin wants a large buffer zone between the West and the Soviet Union. He also wants everywhere the Tsars held back.
Not totally true or all of Finland would have been incorporated into the USSR, he wants what he can get back at a reasonable price.

So ( 6's vs 1's rolling results, best case of best cases), getting Western Poland (Curzon line with minor adjustments), a bit of East Prussia, a neutral Poland (with the rest of East Prussia and a western border on the Oder ie as small and far away Germany as possible) is the minimum.
That would almost certainly mean the allies signing up for a divided Germany for twenty+ years with neutrality afterwards plus writing off of Soviet debts and looking the other way for any Eastern European referendum's on being communist (Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria at a minimum).
 
As little American blood as possible? Probably best to let the USAAF top brass know about that!
Which was a result of wishful thinking and an erroneous belief on the part of the USAAF on how to run a bomber campaign; not any 'sure: let's get American troops intentionally slaughtered for political, (edit: not achieving military objectives as efficiently as possible), reasons' decision on the part of Roosevelt.
And as other posters have pointed out, the USAAF did end up making changes and improvements, bringing their loss rates down.
 
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29 December 1941. Kaluga. CCCP
29 December 1941. Kaluga. CCCP

146th Independent Tank Brigade (ITB), in the region of Kalugo to the immediate west of the Soviet capital, was the first to be equipped with the Valiant Mark II which had been fitted with the L11 76.2mm tank gun. These had arrived with the internal fixtures for the British 6-pdr, and then adapted by the Soviets for their own gun. This gave the British made tank a very similar armour to the KV-1 tank and used the same gun. The KV-1 had the advantage of being designed with the Russian Winter in mind, whereas the Valiant had the much milder British winter in mind.

The British had delivered 466 tanks since the first PQ Convoy, most recently with another 80 Valiant IIs in the sixth convoy which had arrived on 20 December. The majority of tanks carried in first couple convoys had been Matilda IIs. These had been concentrated in 136th Independent Tank Brigade, and for the most part had either been destroyed by enemy action (80) or withdrawn because of their problems with the cold. The preference for the Valiant shown by the Soviets meant that nearly all the tanks that arrived in the last few convoys were Valiant Is. PQ 4 (arrived 28 November) had carried the first few Valiant IIs without guns so that the Soviet gun could be fitted. The L-11 would soon be replaced with the slightly more effective F32, though there were those who really wanted the F34, but Marshall Kulik (Artillery Directorate Chief until June 1941) had blocked this for some unknown reason.

The 131st ITB and 146th ITB were both part of Moscow Military District and involved in the fighting to first halt, and then throw back the German advance. The 131st ITB was currently around Tula, south of Moscow, while 146th were involved in the fighting to recapture Kaluga. Only five of the Valiant Tanks had been armed with the Russian gun, the rest were Valiant Is with the standard British 2-pdr. Unlike most Independent Tank Brigades the full quota of 5 Heavy, 10 Mediums and 20 Light Tanks were actually present in preparation for the attack. The five L11 equipped Valiant IIs made up the Heavy Squadron, and ten Valiant Is made up the two Medium Squadrons. There were also two companies of Light tanks (twenty T-60 Scout tanks) which provided reconnaissance and flank protection for the Brigade.

On 19 December the British Foreign Minister had inspected the Russian formation during his visit to Moscow. He had visited Klin, which had been liberated on 15 December, and the 146th ITB was about to be moved to south of Moscow. During his visit, Eden was accompanied by the Soviet Ambassador to the UK, Ivan Maisky, who had visited one of the factories building Valiant tanks for the Soviets. Now he was seeing them in the hands of Russian troops. The opinion of the Soviet tank men was hampered by the presence of their political officers, so the tanks were compared unfavourably with the KV-1 and T-34 that they should have been equipped with. However grudgingly, the tanks’ good points were brought out, and the conversion of the Valiant II to take the Russian L-11 gun had given them a good HE capability, lacking in the 2-pdr. Complaints that tanks were being sent without guns was based on the misunderstanding about what Vickers had agreed with the Soviets. Eden was happy to see the results of Lend-Lease in place and wished the Soviet troops victory in the coming battle.

Eden’s wish for the Soviet crews of the Valiant tanks seemed to being fulfilled. The Independent Tank Brigade was part of the 49th Army’s attack on the German 4th Army, the latter frozen in place. The snowdrifts were preventing movement by the Germans who were ill-equipped for the weather. The Soviets on the other hand were much more familiar with the conditions and how to ameliorate them. The British tanks took a bit more work than the T34 and KV-1, but there were work arounds that had been tried and tested to keep them running in the mind-numbing daytime temperatures of -15°F (-26°C), at night it fell to -25°F (-31°C). The 31st Cavalry Division were doing much of the work, using the tanks where resistance was strongest. The German anti-tank weapons were still struggling to cope with the stronger armour of the Russian and British tanks. The intervention of the Valiant II with the L-11 gun’s potent HE shell had the desired effect of silencing those places of resistance.

The Russian attackers didn’t know that General Von Kluge, formally GOC 4th Army, now C-in-C Army Group Centre, had been trying for days to persuade Hitler to allow General Kuebler (recently arrived GOC 4th Army) to pull his army back between 10 and 15 miles to shorten the line and free up three divisions to support their flanks. If 4th Army didn’t abandon Kaluga, Kluge argued that he could not save two other crucial line of communications centres which the Soviets were threatening. Eventually after many questions about how much supplies would have to be abandoned, Hitler gave Kluge permission to withdraw 4th Army, but would allow no other retreats. When Kuebler got this order Kaluga was already all but lost, leaving some units to die or surrender in place, allowing their comrades to save themselves.
 
Hmmm guess that would keep them going though you need specialised oil to stop the sump and the fuel tank going to wax to say nothing of any liquids in it.


Assuming the Russians don't drink thr tanks anti freeze
 
Which was a result of wishful thinking and an erroneous belief on the part of the USAAF on how to run a bomber campaign; not any 'sure: let's get American troops intentionally slaughtered for political, (edit: not achieving military objectives as efficiently as possible), reasons' decision on the part of Roosevelt.
And as other posters have pointed out, the USAAF did end up making changes and improvements, bringing their loss rates down.
Didn't the British learn the same lessons earlier before shifting to night bombing?

As to the post, I wonder how the Valiant will compare to both the KV-1 and T-34 under actual combat conditions?
 
Lend Lease

I was thinking today, I’ve never seen any photographs of the Soviets using western tanks. Do you think that’s on purpose and any were destroyed?
 
Lend Lease

I was thinking today, I’ve never seen any photographs of the Soviets using western tanks. Do you think that’s on purpose and any were destroyed?

You can find pictures online. Search for "Lend Lease Tank Pictures" and it will bring up a bunch.
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
Lend Lease

I was thinking today, I’ve never seen any photographs of the Soviets using western tanks. Do you think that’s on purpose and any were destroyed?

I have seen a few - but the whole Soviet myth is that very little was sent - and what was sent was rubbish so......

Bit like the comments in the last post
 
so will Churchill supply the soviets at the cost of empire formations like iotl and every story I read or will his advisors talk sense into him and not send the latest and best toys
 
so will Churchill supply the soviets at the cost of empire formations like iotl and every story I read or will his advisors talk sense into him and not send the latest and best toys
To be fair he can afford to send it to a degree this time since he isn't have to fight in North Africa and Asia at the same time which gives him a bit more flex than OTL.
 
so will Churchill supply the soviets at the cost of empire formations like iotl and every story I read or will his advisors talk sense into him and not send the latest and best toys

Sending Valiants is not giving the Soviets technology they wouldn't otherwise have and bluntly the bulk of the British Army is going to be twiddling their thumbs in Europe until there is sufficient amphibious lift to carry out a large scale operation like Husky which is going to be at least 6 months. So sending tanks to the Soviets so they can use them to kill Germans is a good use of equipment. What matters is tapering off the supply come winter 42/43 so that when the WAllies return to France their formations are fully equipped and ready to go with Victors.
 
-15F is just nice crisp winter weather. Heck you don't even need to cover your face at that temperature.
Sure, the BRITS think it's mind-numbingly cold, but the Russians? Meh.
In the west of Scotland where I am, anything under 0C is enough to bring the city to a grinding (slippery) halt. 1cm of snow is a whiteout blizzard! I blame the gulf stream personally. Odd that we're on the same latitude as Moscow and Halifax.
Allan.
 
In the west of Scotland where I am, anything under 0C is enough to bring the city to a grinding (slippery) halt. 1cm of snow is a whiteout blizzard! I blame the gulf stream personally. Odd that we're on the same latitude as Moscow and Halifax.
Allan.
To be fair Halifax is not that cold either. Barely 3 months of winter and rarely drops below -20C! HDD is generally below 4000.
 
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