Separated at Birth: America and Drakia
- Thread starter Ephraim Ben Raphael
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Great update!
That Calhoun quote really does underscore how the very different American and Drakian views on territorial expansion are both informed by racism?
Americans: “We could annex and subjugate that country filled with mostly nonwhite people? Count us out.”
Drakians: “We could annex and subjugate that country filled with mostly nonwhite people? Count us in.”
Of course, depending on how the demographic situation plays out, the Yucatán is going to end up as a state with Maya as the majority, or at least a very large plurality.
Looking at the map, I have to note that the Ottoman Empire still holds much of Southeastern Europe that was independent by this point in our timeline. I am curious: what is the situation of the Greeks and the South Slavs right now? Not to get ahead of things, but I wonder if they will eventually serve as the casus belli for Drakian expansion into that part of the world. “Oh, we are just freeing the Greeks, Armenians, Serbs, and our other Christian brothers from the Turkish yoke” they will say... before forgetting to actually pack up and leave once they do.
That Calhoun quote really does underscore how the very different American and Drakian views on territorial expansion are both informed by racism?
Americans: “We could annex and subjugate that country filled with mostly nonwhite people? Count us out.”
Drakians: “We could annex and subjugate that country filled with mostly nonwhite people? Count us in.”
Of course, depending on how the demographic situation plays out, the Yucatán is going to end up as a state with Maya as the majority, or at least a very large plurality.
Looking at the map, I have to note that the Ottoman Empire still holds much of Southeastern Europe that was independent by this point in our timeline. I am curious: what is the situation of the Greeks and the South Slavs right now? Not to get ahead of things, but I wonder if they will eventually serve as the casus belli for Drakian expansion into that part of the world. “Oh, we are just freeing the Greeks, Armenians, Serbs, and our other Christian brothers from the Turkish yoke” they will say... before forgetting to actually pack up and leave once they do.
I also notice that Guatemala seems to be occupying a good chunk of Chiapas and possibly some of Tabasco, as well as El Salvador. Is this going to last? I have doubts...
ITTL the demographic and industrial advantage for the "north" versus the "south" is much larger than OTL. The slave states no longer have the population and resources of Texas to start with, and Texas as a free state as well as the free status of what was Northern Mexico means supplies from elsewhere to the CSA from Mexico and through the Gulf are not happening. Since the USN is going to be larger and more modern than OTL, the blockade of the "CSA" is going to be more effective sooner than OTL. This does not bode well for the "CSA".
On the international scene France will be leaning or actively "north" not "south". IMHO the UK while more "anti-American" than OTL is still not going to be that much more "pro-CSA". Yes, not having Canada means that concern for the UK is not there, and the resentment is there. However Nova Scotia/Newfoundland is vulnerable, so that goes in the mix. If the UK wants to support the CSA, more in the hope of weakening the USA as it fights the war and then recovers from it afterwards, their best move is to allow Drakia to be the conduit. At this point in time Drakia is still relatively tightly bound to the Empire, so if the UK wanted to remain neutral they could lean on the Draka enough to make any aid a trickle. They could, however, go "wink, wink, nod, nod" to Drakia and when the USA complains, as they most assuredly would about Draka blockade runners and aid, the UK can say that as a Dominion within the British Empire the Draka have freedom of action so that "private" actions like blockade runners with aid, and "sales" of supplies (on credit of course) is determined by them not London.
As long as the RN does not directly intervene, this fiction can be sustained. The Draka don't have much of a navy as the RN does the work, they could, quite legitimately, escort blockade runners through international waters with some naval force as a token, as long as the escorts don't enter US waters ("freedom of navigation" you know). Similarly they could outfit commerce raiders like the UK did, with the same fiction that they sold ships and guns but no "armed" ships (the Alabama met the guns in the Azores and fitted them there).
Of course a war is not inevitable. Rather than CS refugees going to Drakia after losing the ACW you could see Drakia offering substantial land grants to southerners, and free transportation and nothing would stop the southerners from bringing their slaves with them, at least early on. Only one in four southern households even owned one slave, and the number of large scale slave owners was relatively small although politically dominant. If a significant percentage of those slave owners decided to go to Drakia as described, having the brains to realize that secession was doomed then war talk peters out. It wasn't the yeoman farmers, however racist they might have been, who were clamoring for secession. OTL the option of selling land, and potentially some of the slaves and taking the cash and all/some slaves elsewhere with a large land grant simply was not viable. OTL Mexico was non-slave, and Brazil was not attractive until the south had lost. Here Drakia speaks English, is part of the British Empire which southerners find congenial, and converting slaves to serfs is a matter of paperwork unlike OTL where slavery was frankly outlawed in the Empire (in spite of a lot of slave like practices).
I expect the USA would be happy to see the major slave power folks leave, and even swallow the taking of slaves with them.
Just some thoughts.
On the international scene France will be leaning or actively "north" not "south". IMHO the UK while more "anti-American" than OTL is still not going to be that much more "pro-CSA". Yes, not having Canada means that concern for the UK is not there, and the resentment is there. However Nova Scotia/Newfoundland is vulnerable, so that goes in the mix. If the UK wants to support the CSA, more in the hope of weakening the USA as it fights the war and then recovers from it afterwards, their best move is to allow Drakia to be the conduit. At this point in time Drakia is still relatively tightly bound to the Empire, so if the UK wanted to remain neutral they could lean on the Draka enough to make any aid a trickle. They could, however, go "wink, wink, nod, nod" to Drakia and when the USA complains, as they most assuredly would about Draka blockade runners and aid, the UK can say that as a Dominion within the British Empire the Draka have freedom of action so that "private" actions like blockade runners with aid, and "sales" of supplies (on credit of course) is determined by them not London.
As long as the RN does not directly intervene, this fiction can be sustained. The Draka don't have much of a navy as the RN does the work, they could, quite legitimately, escort blockade runners through international waters with some naval force as a token, as long as the escorts don't enter US waters ("freedom of navigation" you know). Similarly they could outfit commerce raiders like the UK did, with the same fiction that they sold ships and guns but no "armed" ships (the Alabama met the guns in the Azores and fitted them there).
Of course a war is not inevitable. Rather than CS refugees going to Drakia after losing the ACW you could see Drakia offering substantial land grants to southerners, and free transportation and nothing would stop the southerners from bringing their slaves with them, at least early on. Only one in four southern households even owned one slave, and the number of large scale slave owners was relatively small although politically dominant. If a significant percentage of those slave owners decided to go to Drakia as described, having the brains to realize that secession was doomed then war talk peters out. It wasn't the yeoman farmers, however racist they might have been, who were clamoring for secession. OTL the option of selling land, and potentially some of the slaves and taking the cash and all/some slaves elsewhere with a large land grant simply was not viable. OTL Mexico was non-slave, and Brazil was not attractive until the south had lost. Here Drakia speaks English, is part of the British Empire which southerners find congenial, and converting slaves to serfs is a matter of paperwork unlike OTL where slavery was frankly outlawed in the Empire (in spite of a lot of slave like practices).
I expect the USA would be happy to see the major slave power folks leave, and even swallow the taking of slaves with them.
Just some thoughts.
That Mega-California gives me mixed feelings. On one level I think it is beautifully glorious in what that state will get up to in the future. On another level I think it is atrociously awful, I mean just look at it.
I do still want it to keep all of Las Californias though. You know, just for the CONSTITUTIONAL reasons. Only that.
I do still want it to keep all of Las Californias though. You know, just for the CONSTITUTIONAL reasons. Only that.
If a significant number of Southerners do leave for South Africa (which seems a demographic necessity if Drakia is ever going to be a superpower), it would be interesting if many of them preserved some aspect of their American culture in the same way that the Confederados did in our timeline, just on a much larger scale. They would actually be the segment of Drakian society most eager to take a hardline stance against the United States, in the same way that Irish Americans in our timeline (and likely in this timeline as well) often took a dim view of the United Kingdom.
Early Gold Rush Best Gold rush.
boy talk about taking more than you can chew...This Bravo seems to be like a real egomaniac type if he thought that was workable in the slightest.
Interesting, that does has got me thinking, is it Possible ITTL with the focus on culture we'll see more of an officiall attempt by the government to force new immigrant groups to conform not allow a melting pot? Do wonder though what that culture the goverment tries to push would look like...
Ooof yeah Mexico ITTL got super screwed. They may as well of just added the other portions of it, put the nation out of its collective misery.All its got now ITTL is a future as a impoverished rump, with no chance to get anywhere. My guess: some guy like this idiot will take power and try to go and reconquer the parts of Mexico the US stole only to get brutally crushed and the nation annexed.
I enjoy how southern Dreams have cracked at cold hard reality of how "yeah, most people now adays, rather dont perfer Slavery"...Also Im kinda fascinated how Texan demographics are like ITTL,with all the French conservatives, Irishman and Americans it seems like a interesting place to be.
Mmm, INTERESTING. Never really considiered not having a civil war in a TL with America exsisting or for it to become a international clash . Your completely right about the south probably being abit more realistic with all the demographics around. since the Dice has said we are still having the war, I wonder how that Realism will affect Southern leadership and how they conduct the war. Also wonder how the new international war will affect the French and British, Im seeing Algeria as a prime target by the French (im sure their resentful at being shut out of Africa) and the Draka will move into stop them.
Why Im tickled pink
, glad to assist your creative energies.
Man, that's one thicc America you've got going there! Here's hoping they clean up their scraps, Manifest some more Destiny, and get around to annexing Cuba, Alaska, and Newfoundland.*Battle Cry of Freedom intensifies*
Everyone knows the true lost 14th colony wasn't that once-Gallic pretender to the claim, Nova Scotia, but fellow founded-by-God's-chosen-English-colonials.... Newfoundland!
- At the time of the Alaska purchase it was a really unpopular move. People called it Seward's Folly and Seward's Icebox. But while time and the discovery of gold and other valuable resources vindicated Seward I could see the United States passing on Alaska because they've got so much immediately attractive land in their Canadian acquisitions.
- C'mon guys, let the Brits have their fishing colony in peace. It's literally harming nobody.
Interestingly enough, the United States and the remaining bits of the Commonwealth would eventually merge in Stirling’s timeline after the Draka’s conquest of most of the Old World. We will have to see if anything like that happens here, but if it does, the owner Newfoundland beforehand will become a moot point.
I wish I was taking something so I could make my humor posts make sense.
Although Newfoundland being English-founded (yes I know of Plaisance, but it came later, English colonists were the first to settle and not merely fish), but not having much to do with the strip of fellow Anglo-founded colonies on the mainland, always surprised me in actual history.
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