Romanov Ascendant: What if the Soviet Union survived?
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Justinian
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To radical leftist and many left wing student organizations, especially edgier ones, they're heroes fighting a revolutionary struggle. They inspired copy cats, but there was another major organization too that operated for a while, but I would say at this point many different groups are now operating under the RAF label because of its prestige. But generally I'd say they're detested as criminals, maniacs and terrorists by the majority of people. Conservative or right wing elements are definitely beginning to blame the Soviet Union and the East Germans.
If there is a "pink tide" in TTLs Latin America, America's response should be ... interesting.
Justinian
Banned
I'm trying to imagine is how exactly has American and West European (UK especially) culture developed? How would you define the early 90s to mid 90s culture OTL and how do you think it would be different? Is there more latent patriotism like in the 1980s? Is there malaise and confusion at an ideological enemy that is not only thriving but managing quite successfully to continue checking NATO?
Justinian
Banned
Absolutely, and with the fall of Venezuela and Nicaragua, I could see them going full 'monroe' without starting WW3.
dcharles
Banned
Well, I think there's all of that.
One knock-off you might get is an earlier consciousness of anxiety and mood disorders. The 90's were really kind of a return to the Era of Good feelings, at least in the US, and the zeitgeist was kind of counter to paying social attention to things like that. It was a much more optimistic time. I think that without the temporary respite to the sense of impending doom that the end of the Cold War provided, we all start to go madder, sooner.
Is their really a sence of impending doom, the US and USSR might not like eachother, but they aren't going to war anytime soon.
dcharles
Banned
This seems like a question from someone who was not alive during the Cold War.
Yes, Virginia, the ever-present threat of nuclear holocaust gave us a sense of impending doom.
Of all the random things:
Cyberpunk won't be as big as it was in the early 90's. Part of the appeal of it appeared to be a response to the sudden removal of the "certainty" that the world would end in nuclear fire. So instead of a four minute warning, blinding light and a fire storm, we had megacorps, Street Soldiers, Net Runners and ripper docs, either way, the world would be destroyed. OTL, now, we can see from films made by people of my age, a rush of Zombies, another allegory to deal with having such a grim certainty ripped away, (in the best possible way).
Music, possibly not too much of a change, Grunge would be darker, so more of an Alice In Chains sound than Blind Melon, and Industrial would keep it's dark sound. Gothic Rock would last a little longer. The videos would have more of a post apocalyptical feel to them, Kind of like This.
I think Glam Rock would survive a bit longer than OTL, it won't be killed off by Grunge this time around. It's message of hedonism will still be an escape from the grim reality, so expect that to be even more outrageous than it was.
Comics would continue their WWIII allegories, Battle and 2000AD especially, more from Judge Dredd, Strontium Dog and Rogue Trooper.
Television would probably have more satire and Spitting Image would last longer, although series like Soldier Soldier, Our Girl, The Professionals would last longer, and Spooks would probably start a little sooner, but possibly with more Anti-Soviet storylines.
Books like OTL's Bravo Two Zero and The One That Got Away would be more popular and probably less obstructed by the MOD.
That's all that springs to mind so far.
Justinian
Banned
This always seemed like a difference of opinion thing, some people had a cynical view that MAD was ultimately going to happen. So you're definitely going to get more Threads and whatever the American version is called type movies, that would certainly deepen the fear in some of the population. But of course I think the majority would consist of people who are either "complacent", don't care about politics enough or are too removed from caring about politics because of their material conditions. That in itself could be kind of a 'culture war'.
As a result I think the US is always going to have a latent anti war movement, that kind of just dissolved after the cold war.
I have to agree here, and it wasn't limited to the Western side of the Iron curtain either.
Certainly I grew up in Britain during the 70's and 80's and it was always "When the Soviets attack", not "If the Soviets attack".
Chatting to a couple of people at work who came from Hungary and Poland a while back about this, they had two schools of thought, that one day the Americans would attack, and that the Soviets had already attacked.
Justinian
Banned
I agree with all of this, we might get zombies. We also probably get a few more edgier films like 'They Live' or anything by Paul Verhoeven.
Music wise too absolutely, heavy metal and hard rock are definitely going to keep up too, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest don't end up as spent creative forces. I also definitely agree with grunge, I think that in itself would maintain it's counterculture status. People would want more upbeat songs, focused on love, on things in their life that are more relatable for the vast majority of people, but I doubt pop would ever get as popular as it does until the 2000s.
I wonder how Michael Crichton would write, considering he inspired cyberpunk to some extent. Maybe Jurassic Park comes out in 1993, but instead of corporate espionage, Dennis Nedry is trying to sell the hardwon innovations of Ingen's scientists to the KGB. Although one question I have is I do remember a lot of original cyberpunk stories, at least the original Cyberpunk roleplaying game that they based Cyberpunk 2077 off just recently had the Soviet Union; and with the emphasis on computers may just inspire the genre to go in different directions? Blade Runner was a big influence on that too.
dcharles
Banned
Yeah, but we're talking about broad cultural trends. How is the aggregate ITTL different than the one IOTL. I don't think it's too controversial to say that a larger, longer threat of nuclear armageddon will fuck with people's heads.
But a lot of political apathy comes from a sense of helplessness. I think that a lot of times, ITTL as in ours, the apolitical are going to be some of those who are most overwhelmed by the events of the day. Again, the Cold War stretching into the 21st century is going to be a recipe for creating a society filled with neuroses and malaise.
Well, the most robust correlation between the size of antiwar movements and historical events is the presence of a hot war.
Antiwar sentiment in the US spikes during periods of foreign adventurism.
dcharles
Banned
Point of clarification:
Are you saying that it was a widespread notion within Poland and Hungary during the Cold War that: there had already been a nuclear war, that the Soviets had won it, and that they were living, Matrix/1984-style, in a world where the government was telling them that the Cold War was still happening?
Cause if you are, that's wild.
I suspect the biggest thing is well religion, while rallying against the godless communists began a while ago the CIA and other organizations really took to supporting religious groups everywhere against the USSR and earlier China like the Pope against the USSR, weird evangelicals against catholic priests demanding more rights for the poor in South America, Buddhists against China till they became best friends (I wonder if the Dali Lama will last here given the US/Chinese alliance) and more infamously of all Islamic freedom fighters from across the globe.
Besides having Communism to define oneself against their is the ever present sword of Damocles that is nuclear war, so people would have a larger concern for their souls than in the OLT as people turn to their faith for comfort.
Besides having Communism to define oneself against their is the ever present sword of Damocles that is nuclear war, so people would have a larger concern for their souls than in the OLT as people turn to their faith for comfort.
No, more that while we feared a Soviet Invasion that might come, for the Eastern Bloc, it had already come, they had been invaded already.
I still think Cyberpunk would remain influential. A lot of the tropes we associate with it originated in Japan and spread out due to the growing influence of Japanese pop culture during the 80s and 90s. There were also films like Blade Runner which were made well before the Cold War ended.
Also I think in the event of a resurgent Soviet Union equipped with advanced computers, cyberpunk may end up being even more influential.
Also I think in the event of a resurgent Soviet Union equipped with advanced computers, cyberpunk may end up being even more influential.
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Agreed the only aspect that would change rather alot would be the corporatism aspect of the series which is likely to be toned down. Actually thinking about it. It would be awesome to see a series where the various globe dominating corporations are in a massive cold war with a still clinging to life soviet union where it shows the too extreme ends of the spectrum on one end it is a corrupt greed infested but free corporate society of the West vs the safe but oppressive and authoritarian ussr. God that would be an awesome story
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