by this point any Yugoslavian state wont try to secede unless Soviet do collapse after romanov
Romanov Ascendant: What if the Soviet Union survived?
- Thread starter Justinian
- Start date
- Status
Chapter Five: The Conclusions of an Eventful Year
Justinian
Banned
Kissing the Ring
October 21st 1993. 11:23. East Berlin, Marx Memorial University Hospital, Special Wing
Erich Honecker was a devoted communist, he lived through the eventful years of Weimar Germany where seeing the exploitation of the proletarian by the bourgeois drove him to left wing politics. When Hitler rose to power, he would suffer greatly, being imprisoned and kept in solitary confinement for most of those years. It was alleged that he had renounced communism and offered to serve the wehrmacht, but it's unknown if these claims are accurate. He was freed by the Soviet Army, and despite contentious political wrangling, his pre war KPD credentials served him well. He quickly became a leading member of the Socialist Unity Party (SED), which was created by the (forced) unification of the communist and social democrat parties of Eastern Germany. He became primarily responsible for security and military projects, overseeing the creation of the NVA as well as the building of the Berlin Anti Fascist Wall, which was a project he personally organized and took much pride in; having also given the border guards the orders to fire on anyone who would attempt to cross it. How could a socialist society exist, when it would educate it's population, give them skills and training; then have them, corrupted by western individualism, attempt to leverage them for what? A nice car? A big house? The fake charade of democracy?! Honecker would make his move in the 70's, managing to unseat the previous General Secretary of the SED, Walter Ulbricht with the nod of Brezhnev.
During the 1980's, he created ambitious programs to raise the standard of living in the GDR, which were generally successful but had created enormous debt. By the mid to late 1980's the state was hemorrhaging on a massive deficit that was only alleviated by direct cash injections from the Soviet Union made from oil profits. However, Soviet aid in instituting computer based economic planning, a project that Honecker and his clique were absolutely in favor of and supported wholeheartedly, along with the bureaucracy and SED. This had the benefit of increasing the overall efficiency in the East German economy, which was already better than the Soviet in many ways. This combined with increased industrial development in consumer goods, and by the early 1990's, increased coventures with Czechoslovakia and Skoda. He had also normalized relations with West Germany, but was never able to get full diplomatic acceptance either. The increasing emphasis on a socialist technocratic approach that had become dominant in the Soviet Union was also the case in the GDR. The Stasi actually went as far as to integrate the computer programmers and analysts, who maintained the plants. Honecker, who had cooperated in quashing dissent in the late 80s with the Soviets had been a stabilizing influence on the GDR. The overall recent bout of economic success legitimized the hardliners and damaged the cause of the reformers. Honecker was now beset by terminal stage liver cancer, and was growing weaker by the day. Just two days before, now his friend, General Secretary Romanov of the Soviet Union paid him the last visit they would share. In the meantime, while Honecker was undergoing palliative care, Erich Mielke had been alleviated by Honecker to the position of acting general secretary. Mielke however had no taste for the job. It was time to discuss as to who would succeed Honecker and lead the GDR? The discussions involved Mielke, Honecker and the Soviet Ambassador, as well as Romanov on the phone at times.
There were three major candidates.
strawpoll.com
October 21st 1993. 11:23. East Berlin, Marx Memorial University Hospital, Special Wing
Erich Honecker was a devoted communist, he lived through the eventful years of Weimar Germany where seeing the exploitation of the proletarian by the bourgeois drove him to left wing politics. When Hitler rose to power, he would suffer greatly, being imprisoned and kept in solitary confinement for most of those years. It was alleged that he had renounced communism and offered to serve the wehrmacht, but it's unknown if these claims are accurate. He was freed by the Soviet Army, and despite contentious political wrangling, his pre war KPD credentials served him well. He quickly became a leading member of the Socialist Unity Party (SED), which was created by the (forced) unification of the communist and social democrat parties of Eastern Germany. He became primarily responsible for security and military projects, overseeing the creation of the NVA as well as the building of the Berlin Anti Fascist Wall, which was a project he personally organized and took much pride in; having also given the border guards the orders to fire on anyone who would attempt to cross it. How could a socialist society exist, when it would educate it's population, give them skills and training; then have them, corrupted by western individualism, attempt to leverage them for what? A nice car? A big house? The fake charade of democracy?! Honecker would make his move in the 70's, managing to unseat the previous General Secretary of the SED, Walter Ulbricht with the nod of Brezhnev.
During the 1980's, he created ambitious programs to raise the standard of living in the GDR, which were generally successful but had created enormous debt. By the mid to late 1980's the state was hemorrhaging on a massive deficit that was only alleviated by direct cash injections from the Soviet Union made from oil profits. However, Soviet aid in instituting computer based economic planning, a project that Honecker and his clique were absolutely in favor of and supported wholeheartedly, along with the bureaucracy and SED. This had the benefit of increasing the overall efficiency in the East German economy, which was already better than the Soviet in many ways. This combined with increased industrial development in consumer goods, and by the early 1990's, increased coventures with Czechoslovakia and Skoda. He had also normalized relations with West Germany, but was never able to get full diplomatic acceptance either. The increasing emphasis on a socialist technocratic approach that had become dominant in the Soviet Union was also the case in the GDR. The Stasi actually went as far as to integrate the computer programmers and analysts, who maintained the plants. Honecker, who had cooperated in quashing dissent in the late 80s with the Soviets had been a stabilizing influence on the GDR. The overall recent bout of economic success legitimized the hardliners and damaged the cause of the reformers. Honecker was now beset by terminal stage liver cancer, and was growing weaker by the day. Just two days before, now his friend, General Secretary Romanov of the Soviet Union paid him the last visit they would share. In the meantime, while Honecker was undergoing palliative care, Erich Mielke had been alleviated by Honecker to the position of acting general secretary. Mielke however had no taste for the job. It was time to discuss as to who would succeed Honecker and lead the GDR? The discussions involved Mielke, Honecker and the Soviet Ambassador, as well as Romanov on the phone at times.
There were three major candidates.
- Egon Krenz: Relatively young at the age of 56, considered the frontrunner, having cultivated a good relationship with Honecker. He however is hampered by the fact that Mielke dislikes him. Krenz promises a more progressive and reformist agenda, wanting to emphasize the 'Democratic' in German Democratic Republic. He wishes to increase the amount of political rights held by the average individual, while also increasing the role other parties could take in the volkammer, while of course maintaining a leading role for the SED. He publicly praised the efforts of Romanov, but stasi files indicate a personal distaste for his hardline methods.
- Hans Modrow: While slightly older at the age of 64, Modrow represents a safe and moderate option for General Secretary. He has a strong support base in the moderates of the party, and would not likely act without the approval of Moscow. To Mielke he seemed like the safest bet, someone who could be manipulated by the Stasi (Him) and would seem like a way to placate the reformers without actually having to do any reform. Modrow had not muddled himself by any public or private affiliations with the reformers. Honecker was indifferent.
- Christine Renata: The first woman ever to sit on the Politburo of the GDR, and fairly young at the age of 48, supported by the wife of Honecker and Inge Lange. She represented interestingly the hardliners, as she herself was an almost fanatical marxist leninist. Her proposal was both radical and bombastic, that thanks to the computerization program and the increasing possibilities offered by technology, the GDR could truly begin the first steps towards the creation of a truly communist society. The first steps of course would take at least a decade to implement, requiring intensive planning and only further legitimize the position of the SED in the GDR. Mielke was impressed, but saw her as naive and idealistic, she could easily upset both the reformers and the bureaucracy at once. But the romantic fanaticism had struck a chord in both Honecker and Romanov; despite the fact Mielke only tried to use her as a joke candidate to promote his choice of Modrow.
Who is selected to fill the position of General Secretary of the SED/L... - Online Poll - StrawPoll
What's your opinion? Vote now: Egon Krenz, Hans Modrow, Christine Renata...
strawpoll.com
Last edited:
I got a feeling that Christine Renata will make this timeline the most intresting.
I guess Tanzania needs to be Yellow, Somalia should be Blue as Ethiopia is red and that was the case after the Ogaden War and India because of its close relationship with several European countries might get blue striped. Within Africa a large zone could be painted with French influence.
I don't think that she would be able to bring significant changes. Being an idealist dosen't help either, it would allow the Stasi to become an even more powerful state within a state and even other departments going independent out of her control.. Her young age is another problem as she lacks the connections required to be powerful. Her meteoric rise was due to the blessings of a few people from the Honecker era but that rise was not solid enough to latch onto by herself.
I think Krenz would be the most interesting character as he had a solid support base, a clear vision and a realist for the most part, attempting democratisation of the frontier Communist State will bring interesting outcomes no matter what.
Guess the next update will see the end of Saddam, a previous update hinted that Romanov believed that he was speaking with a dead man.
Would still be intresting to see the SED undergo an internal civil war between pro-Renata and pro-Stasi factions. Maybe she ends up purging the Stasi using organized radicals who march though Berlin. The DDR is going to have some civil strife as now that the socialsit economy is working and the threat of capitalist restoration is subdued their is nothing really holding the SED together. It'll just come around quicker under Renata.
I think Krenz is the more realistic option but a woman in charge of East Germany would be interesting too.
Also what's going on in Somalia at this point. Has Barre's government collapsed or is the US still propping him up?
Also what's going on in Somalia at this point. Has Barre's government collapsed or is the US still propping him up?
Why would be Christine Renata the gensec? she doesn't even exist! I tried to search her but no such person exists. Even imo if she does "magically" exist it would be highly unlikely for her to be gensec. Way too ASB. Just choose Krenz, he's more highly likely. Make the timeline as realistic as possible. 
Angela Merkel is probably still living in East Germany in this timeline.
She was already in the reunified Germany's Kohl cabinet as the Minister for Family Affairs by 1991. I'm not throwing around any ideas but..........
EDIT: She can also speak Russian. Just throwing that out there.
She was already in the reunified Germany's Kohl cabinet as the Minister for Family Affairs by 1991. I'm not throwing around any ideas but..........
EDIT: She can also speak Russian. Just throwing that out there.
Last edited:
Renata seems like it would be the most interesting option but as a previous poster says I can't find anything about them online. Did you make a typo or was this person created from thin air? if the latter, maybe replace them with a similar person who existed IRL.
Taking the fight to the Stasi needs a massive bottom up powerbase which Renata lacks because she was just pulled up by Honecker without having to fight her way up. Most of the members who vote for her will do so because of her weakness that will allow them to further their means.
If a intra party war breaks out then it will be between factions that are competing to have influence over her. Maybe Krenz vs Stasi(Mielke) Krenz has the support (at least passive) of the most of the Honecker administration and even has the reformers on his side, so he is the only one powerful enough to fight the Stasi and come out on top. Any funny business by Renata will probably make her suffer an untimely illness or an unfortunate accident.
And why would DDR have civil strife when conditions are improving? The transformation from socialism to capitalism caused the civil strife OTL and that is not happening.
Nothing holding the SED together? The turn to capitalism caused the rupture in the SED. Many advances have been made to further the cause of communism, even a general revival of the Eastern Block has taken place, the SED despite having internal conflict over leadership couldn't be stronger.
___________________________________________________________
As she didn't exist OTL I think she should not be included as this TL has refrained from ASB for so long it should not venture into that territory now.
Computers will increase efficiency for the time being but that improvement will soon slack as the Computer Operators relax and get the same bureaucratic disease.
I wonder how far has the US plan for a 600 ship navy gone. By this time the 11435(Kuznetsov) class aircraft carriers are probably complete and I imagine them being named Tbilisi and Riga. The next nuclear carrier would be maybe named after a major Central Asian city. The Kievs can be converted for STOBAR operations like the Vikramaditya and equipped with Mig-29Ks.
Iran is now truly abandoned by both USA and the USSR I think they would try to balance out by allying with Europe,China or India or a combination as it need every aid that it can get.
In the Map South Africa or what's left of it seems to be locked out around the Cape. Has the Orange line been breached?
With Perot at the helm the war on drugs is also something to look at.
The 80th anniversary of the Communist revolution can be celebrated with a naval exercise on all the oceans at the same time.
I also wonder what's happening in space. The Freedom Space Station and the Mir-2 were prime projects. Are they underway?
Justinian
Banned
Why would be Christine Renata the gensec? she doesn't even exist! I tried to search her but no such person exists. Even imo if she does "magically" exist it would be highly unlikely for her to be gensec. Way too ASB. Just choose Krenz, he's more highly likely. Make the timeline as realistic as possible.
On the note of 'creating' a character, I just wanted to create a vehicle that would have represented people who did exist, but due to a lack of information cannot really name names. There were a lot of women in the GDR, climbing up the party bureaucracy, who had were born in the baby boom years.
But the suggestion of Angela Merkel, despite that fact she would be 39 is very interesting. I imagine in that instance, Mielke may retain the General Secretaryship, bring her in as a "junior general secretary" and elevate her later when he doesn't want to do the job anymore. Or just put her in directly, assuming he would end up the 'shadow counsellor'.
Christine Renata isn't really ASB, because she could exist, and perhaps existed under a different name. My thoughts are that the automation of socialism may have breathed more intellectual lifeblood into the idea that a transition to communism was actually possible, something far more likely to be fostered in the more "idealistic" GDR than the Soviet Union, where Romanov believes in a vague future transition, but the current circumstances of governing prevent that. The leftist opinion on that notion is going to vary, from him (personally) just wanting to continue being a tyrant/bonepartist, that a permanent revolution should be established, etc. Or the more 'authoritarian' leftist view that while a cold war is going on, a transition to communism is impossible.
I should establish that I actually have no idea if establishing an actual communist society is possible, even with technology? I think it would be interesting to see someone actually attempt to do it in an organized state and then see the inevitable realities cause emergency or the intervention of the security forces. I also could see the Soviets pushing a woman to make themselves look good compared to the west and to West Germany in particular. The party, Stasi, etc because of their (Latent Misogynist?) views see her as a pushover, and then hastily underestimate someone who could become a demogague that mobilizes the students or even the combat groups of the working class(...) or etc.
Last edited:
Justinian
Banned
I'm having a very difficult time finding someone who fits the age exactly, but I'll continue looking into it. 'Christine Renata' could be considered kind of a placeholder for now.
Communism is a society in which the productive forces have reached a level of developement that enables humanity to overcome it's ancient condition of scarcity with a minimal input of human labour. It is a classless and stateless society in which the principle "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is realized.
However there are a number of prerequisits without which communism is not possible.
1.) As allready mentioned, the productive forces have to be developed highly enough to overcome scarcity. As long as there is scarcity, there will innevitably be classes and a state.
2.) Society can not transition to communism as long as there are still capitalist states on earth. Communism is, per definition, stateless. And as long as the outside threath of capitalist invasion exists, there has to be a standing apparatus of armed people (the first main function of a state).
3.) The people's consciousness has to have reached a level at which they are able to administer society without a standing bureaucratic apparatus (the second main function of a state).
Only if those prerequisits are met a slow withering away of the state can take place, and society can transition to communism. This is a process and can not be done per decree. Marx, Engels and Lenin had all realized this and have written quit a bit about it. Therefore I doubt that anyone who advocates for an immediate transition to "communism" (put in quotation marks because the GDR at the time was in no place to transition to a post-scarcity economy) would be taken seriously.
Justinian
Banned
One thing to keep in mind is that Renata isn't going to immediately alienate the Stasi, as she is still fundamentally a hardliner. I'd argue the Stasi would probably be more nervous of Krenz and his opinions of Romanov, and the possibility of a Dubcek situation. I imagine they may not take her claims or program that seriously, the more cynical types would just see it as effective propaganda that could motivate a youth they believe need something to alleviate their 'counter revolutionary' malaise. Krenz is immediately going to run up against supercharged hardliners if he attempts to make any reforms, and he would have to toe a very tight line, which is not impossible, but would be drawn out.
I think it's fair to use representations of people who could realistically exist, although my ideal would be to find someone who actually did exist. Although this hardliner Angela Merkel idea was pretty good.
I think the USN's ship expansion plans would have to be iced, Soviet Stealth and getting the F-23 out would be a higher priority especially when Perot is squeezing defence budgets. You're definitely right about the carrier, I could see "Baku" on a conciliatory note but considering the generally spiteful nature of Soviet military leadership, it would be more likely Tselinograd.
I'm hinging towards some kind of China, Pakistan, Iran axis, because I doubt that Iran could reconcile with Europe.
In that case the cape government is blue, and the white is the junta
I actually have a big one in mind with this for 1994 or 1995, "THINK THAT COCAINE IS WHITE? ITS RED!"
Absolutely, a lot of beautiful parades and toasts to seeing the 100th.
I'm going to try and tackle this more in 1994, but I think the beginning stages for each satellite would be launched before the end of 1993. When Perot meets Romanov, I think they'll discuss the possibility of detente and a unification of these efforts, but Perots going to have a handful with that one.
Last edited:
Justinian
Banned
Just keep in mind that "Christine Renata" is not advocating for immediate revolutionary transition to communism ala libertarian leftism or Bukharinism. But more along the lines of "beginning the transition" which could be empty and meaningless or completely radical. It would still be looked at within the confines of the state and through 5 year plans, but would be more or less an ambitious propaganda and policy program. Romanov and Honecker on a personal scale may be motivated by their age and the contrived romanticism that they put this in action during their lifetimes, especially Honecker. I don't think Romanov would really consider it that much of a gamble, despite what exactly endorsing an attempt like that would mean in both the eyes of the west, academics and their own parties.
Edit: It would also be an attempt to strike at West Germany, which already is becoming infested with an active and dangerous radical leftist terrorist groups and student movements.
Last edited:
If you're looking for a real woman from East Germany who went into politics and isn't Angela Merkel, I do have a suggestion - Petra Bläss, who served in the Bundestag as a member of the PDS (the successor to the SED). She is young (29 in 1993), but maybe could be a successor to someone such as Krenz. Another suggestion for a woman successor could be Honecker's wife, Margot.
- Status