Place In the Sun: What If Italy Joined the Central Powers? (1.0)

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Bayern and Baden are finished, they did so in July 1916, in fact.

 

[Deleted member 117308]

Rip SPD. I was hopping the SPD wins and pushes for universal suffrage.

 

[Athelstane]

Bayern and Baden are finished, they did so in July 1916, in fact.

Right. But there were four ships in the class. Sachsen and Württemberg were still on the slipways.

The KM will almost certainly want to stop and analyze the lessons of Jutland and the rest of the war before finalizing the L 20e α class design. Odds are, in fact, that they'll end up doing something quite different.

​

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth]

So the Social Democrats lost and have fractured, yet those returning Veterans are likely still a thing, and if they continue to be ignored, things could turn nasty

Yep- veterans' interests will form a huge part in German politics for years if not decades

I don't think the conservatives would leave the veterans out to dry. Willy was no libertine, but he fancied himself a man of the people, and considering everything the men and boys in the trenches went through, he'd want to at least give them some measure of restitution for all their sacrifices for the Fatherland.

Well... they haven't, really. I didn't get too deep into the actual policies implemented by the new Conservative government largely because I need some time to think on what those might be, but veterans are a key portion of their constituency.

Couple thoughts:

1. I'm reading the new update, like what I'm seeing so far.

2. I *would* urge some caution on the economic state of Germany in these circumstances. I think it is easy to understate jus how badly even two years of Great War can run up the red ink and disrupt the economy. Wiki has a decent pull from Economic History Review:

Total spending by the national government reached 170 billion marks during the war, of which taxes covered only 8%, and the rest was borrowed from German banks and private citizens. Eight national war loans reached out to the entire population and raised 100 million marks. It proved almost impossible to borrow money from outside. The national debt rose from only 5 billion marks in 1914 to 156 billion in 1918. These bonds became worthless in 1923 because of hyperinflation.​

Now that's with four years of war. Cut that in half, roughly, for a war that ends in 1916. That's still *horrific*.

And then, you have to pay to take care of millions of wounded soldiers....

Reparations is the hope here, but it's not one that can make the Germans whole anytime soon. The French will be paying on the installment plan, and struggling to do even that, since their economy is in even WORSE shape than that of Germany. Russians will have to pay largely in commodities, and they may struggle to do even that, what with political instability.

This is one more reason why I cannot see a vigorous naval armaments program. I think they probably still finish out the Bayern and Mackensen classes on a reasonable (not frenetic) schedule, but they likely retire (or if they can, sell) all the pre-dreads and some older cruiser classes to save money and manpower. They know their minefields and torpedo boats can keep Britain from Copenhagening them now anyway.

So we're looking at a national debt of around 70-80 billion? Blimey!
Well, I imagine the new conservative government will do everything in its power to balance the budget.
I suppose you're right about putting the navy on the back burner. Kaiser Wilhelm will be unhappy, but what can you do?

Rip SPD. I was hopping the SPD wins and pushes for universal suffrage.

Oh, they're not dead- Ebert's party is just getting started. I don't know when the next election will be but Ebert will feature prominently. As I mentioned in the text, Imperial Germany was a broadly democratic country in OTL and that won't really change in Place In the Sun.

Right. But there were four ships in the class. Sachsen and Württemberg were still on the slipways.

The KM will almost certainly want to stop and analyze the lessons of Jutland and the rest of the war before finalizing the L 20e α class design. Odds are, in fact, that they'll end up doing something quite different.

​

Not really an expert, but it seems most likely that the Saschen and Wurttemberg would get finished anyhow- the idea being that since so much money has already gone into them, why not just finish the job? That way, the Kaiser and the navy will be happy and the country can get around to cutting expenditure, having thrown the military one last bone.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Not really an expert, but it seems most likely that the Saschen and Wurttemberg would get finished anyhow- the idea being that since so much money has already gone into them, why not just finish the job? That way, the Kaiser and the navy will be happy and the country can get around to cutting expenditure, having thrown the military one last bone.

On the other hand, Rape of Vienna: the army's going to need a bit more funding to reenact Otto the Great kicking the Magyars' collective asses.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth]

On the other hand, Rape of Vienna: the army's going to need a bit more funding to reenact Otto the Great kicking the Magyars' collective asses.

True. The Conservatives are going to be very eager to give their men a trip south.
"Getting the Band Back Together- the Imperial German Army!"

 

[Kylia]

Tank development will be considerably delayed ITTL. The Germans are more focused on infantry tactics and Sturmtruppen; their experience with these in the Danubian Civil War will only confirm them in this bias. No other country will have both the resources or the need to come up with tanks until the 1920s.

Germany certainly won't become the premiere North Sea naval power, but the KLM will grow in the wake of victory. Again, since the war ended so soon after Jutland, everyone ITTL considers it a German victory in a strategic sense... Hitler's OTL quote about "if we'd begun in the morning and had two more battleships and two more cruisers" is the general feeling. So there's a sense amongst the German Navy that if they can overwhelm the British in the inevitable next fight, they can defeat Britain in the next war.

These two things make me worry that come the second Weltkrieg or whatever this all ends up being called (The Greater War? 🤣 ) that germany is gonna get blasted, hard, because they'll have gotten very complacent.

 

[Thomas_Wellesley]

These two things make me worry that come the second Weltkrieg or whatever this all ends up being called (The Greater War? 🤣 ) that germany is gonna get blasted, hard, because they'll have gotten very complacent.

You mean like Britain and France were IOTL?

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth]

These two things make me worry that come the second Weltkrieg or whatever this all ends up being called (The Greater War? 🤣 ) that germany is gonna get blasted, hard, because they'll have gotten very complacent.

The War to End All Wars... For Real This Time!

Seriously, that is a danger, but only to an extent- these are still the same old Prussians who love to plan for everything. They're going to be very difficult to catch with their trousers down.

You mean like Britain and France were IOTL?

Certainly no worse than that.

 

[Kylia]

You mean like Britain and France were IOTL?

Yes, but those are Britain and France.

Germany shouldn't be so stupid

(Yes, this is irrational to a great extent, but let me bask in my somewhat inexplicable Kaisarreich fan-ness before in-universe reality smacks me in the face)

But I don't mean complacent in the same way that France and Britain did either, entirely.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth]

Yes, but those are Britain and France.

Germany shouldn't be so stupid

(Yes, this is irrational to a great extent, but let me bask in my somewhat inexplicable Kaisarreich fan-ness before in-universe reality smacks me in the face)

But I don't mean complacent in the same way that France and Britain did either, entirely.

Part of the problem is that in the '20s, France and Danubia will still be pulling themselves back from their respective crises, Russia will still be in civil war, and Britain will be weakened, so... *shrugs*, I guess we can lower our guard and go have a pint, no?

 

[Kylia]

Part of the problem is that in the '20s, France and Danubia will still be pulling themselves back from their respective crises, Russia will still be in civil war, and Britain will be weakened, so... *shrugs*, I guess we can lower our guard and go have a pint, no?

True, true.

What I'm worried about, frankly, is that the German High Command will indeed plan for everything they can imagine, but get so inflexible there that they leave no room for the unimagined. That's where I think they'll get complacent.

also, Germany needs to keep their conscription/reserves program going. Fingers crossed.

 

[Thomas_Wellesley]

Yes, but those are Britain and France.

Germany shouldn't be so stupid

(Yes, this is irrational to a great extent, but let me bask in my somewhat inexplicable Kaisarreich fan-ness before in-universe reality smacks me in the face)

But I don't mean complacent in the same way that France and Britain did either, entirely.

It's good to see cultural favoritism alive and well on this site

True, true.

What I'm worried about, frankly, is that the German High Command will indeed plan for everything they can imagine, but get so inflexible there that they leave no room for the unimagined. That's where I think they'll get complacent.

That... does sound kinda plausible.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth]

True, true.

What I'm worried about, frankly, is that the German High Command will indeed plan for everything they can imagine, but get so inflexible there that they leave no room for the unimagined. That's where I think they'll get complacent.

also, Germany needs to keep their conscription/reserves program going. Fingers crossed.

That's a valid fear... and will probably end up happening! Sounds exactly like the sort of mistake the Prussians would make.
Conscription won't be going anywhere- the victorious Germans credit their militarised society as helping to win the war; even with extreme debt the Conservatives wouldn't jettison that for anything.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth]

Whoops, sorry I missed these!

A few other thoughts, what I describe could serve to push a earlier European economic integration here with Germany and Danubia as the core. Whether France or Italy would also join depend on domestic policies in those countries.

I've given thought to European integration in this TL and I'm not sure what to do with it. Maybe, maybe not.

Speaking of the economy and France: The troubles in France aren't that good for Germany actually. Back in 1913 Germanys biggest trade partner wasn't A-H as one might assume, but France. Loosing their biggest foreign market to a Civil War isn't a positive even if it's a rival tearing itself apart.

I see your point, yeah. Hard to get specie from France when it's been destroyed by Jean-Jacques Famride or Paul Deschanel...
*has a think*

Why would Germany don't need them, they know that they don't have a real way of attacking the UK, with planes that changes, there would be no place to hide in the UK with carriers.

Also the idea that the success of a relative cheap airplane sinking a ship diden't have some strategic talks in high command is hard to swallow, u know like in OTL that was one of the reasons Japan/US build them..

Sealion will never be possible in this universe either. If Germany attacks the UK in a hypothetical round two, it would be with U-boats and in the colonies, never the home island.
I haven't given much thought to German naval doctrine ITTL... carriers won't become big until the 1920s so I've got a little time to think!

Thanks as always for commenting and reading! Seeing people react to one's work is the best feeling out there for an author!

 

[Hadrian.Caeser]

Is there going to be a peaceful 'germanization' I'm the east? (I mean german as a lenguage)

 

[Kylia]

It's good to see cultural favoritism alive and well on this site

Well, actually, I'm American and my ancestry is Anglo, Scots-Irish and Polish, not that I'm particularly concerned with any of those in my daily life.

But I am just... like, a huge fan of the Kaisarreich, just, in general. For reasons I have trouble grasping, tbh.

 

[Kaiser Wilhelm the Tenth]

Is there going to be a peaceful 'germanization' I'm the east? (I mean german as a lenguage)

As time goes on, to an extent.
I've got a chapter on the German East planned for... some point soon. The Polish Border Strip will be germanised, and I imagine the United Baltic Duchy and Courland-Semigalia will to a limited extent. As for the Kingdom of Poland and the Kingdom of Lithuania, as well as... whatever I do with proto Belarus, less so.

 

[Thomas_Wellesley]

Well, actually, I'm American and my ancestry is Anglo, Scots-Irish and Polish, not that I'm particularly concerned with any of those in my daily life.

But I am just... like, a huge fan of the Kaisarreich, just, in general. For reasons I have trouble grasping, tbh.

Fair enough

 

[Alpha-King98760]

Part of the problem is that in the '20s, France and Danubia will still be pulling themselves back from their respective crises, Russia will still be in civil war, and Britain will be weakened, so... *shrugs*, I guess we can lower our guard and go have a pint, no?

Beware Germans lest the Danes develop the tank and steamroll you in a bid to regain Schleswig-Holstein.