Typo. It gave me a strange impression of Himmler's facial jewellery.
He was not one for direct involvement in violence - apparently on the only occasion he actually attended a mass murder (Minsk, '41), he nearly fainted.
"Our Struggle": What If Hitler Had Been a Communist?
- Thread starter The Red
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He was not one for direct involvement in violence - apparently on the only occasion he actually attended a mass murder (Minsk, '41), he nearly fainted.
Unfortunately for Himmler the medical staff won't be able to give him the same priority as the Red Front did. The latter were really annoyed that Goering managed to get away.
First Goebbels is drawn to the left instead of right, now Himmler has his taste for fascism beaten out of him. It seems like a lot of the more effective Nazi leadership is abandoning ship before it even leaves port.
Yeah, the Volkisch Bund is rather lacking in comparison to the Nazis in many areas but what they can count on is a lot of unemployed and angry men willing to replenish their ranks and friends in high places who can sell them to political and business elites who are even more scared of communism than they were IOTL. They aren't as formidable but they're still very dangerous.
Deleted member 92121
So let's get this clear: we have Goering leading fascists getting beaten up by communists led by Eric Mielke under orders presumably from adolf hitler, with Eva Braun inciting the communits to beat Heinrich Himmler presumably to death while Ernst (Thalmann?) tries to get away? Oh Germany you crazy land.
The "Ernst" is Ernst Mehr, the fictional Social Democrat who witnessed the rally and the beginning of the brawl in the previous update. Thalmann's role in this mess will become apparent later, but other than that you're pretty much spot on.
Chapter LV
"There's twenty-two singers!
But one microphone,
Back in the garage!"
~ The Clash
But one microphone,
Back in the garage!"
~ The Clash
The Red Front safe house was an abandoned factory on the outskirts of Berlin, as the economy continued to crumble such places had easier to find even as the paramilitary force grew larger and larger seemingly every day.
Johann wondered how yesterday’s battle might affect that recruitment.
A disused factory meant that there was more than enough space to fit all those who had opted to lay low in the event of a police crackdown. Many grinned jovially amongst the black eyes and broken teeth that they received from the state park riot, warm in the knowledge that their opponents had been dealt much worse.
“Hitler’s willing hangmen were happy to maim and murder the men, women, and children whose only crime was a love for Germany in these trying times.”
Laughter burst out at the Comrade reading out the story in an hysterical, high pitched voice, Eric Mielke seemed to be delighting in the panic amongst the German press he had helped to create. Now he was passing the time reading out the most hyperbolic headlines from the morning papers.
Die Rote Fahne, the paper of the Communist Party, had barely mentioned the scuffle, but the German press had otherwise been all over the story in a predatory fashion. Many within the present company were happy to hear the condemnations read out loud in mocking fashion. These articles were not designed for the working class of course and thus the Red Front didn’t need to care about what they thought
Johann could not help but feel as though their bravado was gained more in the exclamations of the capitalist press barons who had taken offence rather than the fascists they had dispatched. He was well aware of such feelings, they were the type that had caused him to crash planes trying fancy tricks against the Freikorps in the Ruhr. All the same, he did not feel it right to stop the revelry, they had done as they had been ordered to do, and Johann had followed Hitler’s orders ever since the insurgency against the French back in 1924. He could understand the triumphalism.
The laughter amongst the group was brought to a swift halt by the screech of the entry door being dragged open. Johann and his comrades arose from the concrete blocks that acted as their seats to see a shadowed figure appear from outside, his face silhouetted from the light shining in.
A moment later the soldiers of the Red Front snapped to attention with their left fists in the air. It was not every day the General Secretary of the Communist Party of Germany came to visit their little hidey hole. It was only as he got closer that it became clear that this was not a surprise courtesy call.
Johann couldn’t help but notice that the General Secretary was unshaven, his signature grey suit thrown on without the red cloth tied around his left arm. There was a newspaper clenched in his shaking fist. Adolf Hitler was seething.
Johann and the others stood frozen, waiting to be told to relax, but instead Hitler merely threw the paper to the the ground. A Hugenberg tabloid, just like the one that they had been making fun of in the moment that seemed it could have been a century ago.
“Why did I have to hear that the militant wing of the Communist Party undertook a major operation from A. CAPITALIST. RAG.” It was more of an outburst than a question, but Johann tried to avoid eye contact all the same.
“Who deemed themselves worthy to give orders to the organisation I crafted out of the worker’s sacrifice in the Ruhr? WHO?!” This time there was a question, with added venom, and Johann noticed that Mielke, the young enthusiast, had been chosen to be on the receiving end.
“The Zer-the Zentrale, the order came from the Zentrale, we were told you had given the go-ahead.” Johann realised that the tough street fighter who had happily led the charge against the fascists had suddenly been turned into a quivering schoolboy.
“There was no such order,” Hitler snarled in retort, “you are trying to cover up this mess with vague answers but it won’t work.”
“General Secretary, this is the truth, I was given the order by the Party President himself. He said that you had convinced the Zentrale that the time had come to start clearing the streets of the Blackshirts.” Mielke’s pleading voice sounded surprisingly similar to the one of feigned hysteria he had put on when reading the article condemning their assault on the Volkisch Bund, however there was a sincerity to it now, one that appeared to make Hitler pause for thought rather than continue to make accusations.
“You got your orders from the Party President?” He mumbled, anxiously scratching at his unshaven face.
“Yes, General Secretary.”
Something appeared to click in Adolf Hitler’s mind, with a dawn of realisation in his eyes that he had been betrayed. It seemed now that his vaunted relationship with Ernst Thalmann was no longer as strong as it had once been. Together they had removed the incompetents, the sectarians and the zealots from the KPD, now it seemed as if Hitler’s ally had decided that he could no longer share power.
Hitler turned and began to head towards the door, seemingly lost in his thoughts,
“General Secretary?”
This comment gave Hitler pause, but only momentarily, as he swung round again with the same manic expression.
“No, Leader. From now on you will all address me as leader. That way there will be no further mistakes. You will never listen to an order that this not directly from me ever again. If someone attempts to say that I have given approval you will consult me. If anyone gives you an order otherwise, you will report it. To. Me.” Hitler shot daggers towards Mielke.
“Jawohl, mein Fuhrer.” He shouted, Hitler seemed satisfied with the response. The man who had christened himself leader walked back out into the sunlight, leaving his comrades in the shadows once again.
This time they waited for him to leave before turning to Johann,
“You’ve known him the longest, what the hell was that all about?”
Johann looked around all of his new comrades, unable to calculate how to reassure them or give them any explanation. All that he could do was shrug.
“I think we’ve just been part of a coup.”
---
Clash song here.
The painting is Glad to be Back by George Grosz
Assuming there isn't something even more grandiose afoot Thalmann would be smart to take a fast train to Cherbourg and book passage on whatever ship is crossing the Atlantic next.
I think this may the first time that this has ever been said in this world.
I like this thread (and definitely the ebook) because the idea of a communist Hitler in alternate history has always interested me, and not many people seem to touch on that possible idea. I was always interested in seeing what a "reverse" World War 2 would look like. So if we're talking about a communist Hitler, maybe the idea of a fascist Stalin could be interesting too? I'd like to hypothesise something different; to make an opposite to the Stalin in OTL just like here with communist Hitler. Perhaps something like this:
Hard to see what would happen from there, though. Britain might get involved when Germany attacks France, and if it fears the possibility of a "domino effect" revolving around either communism or fascism.
- Hitler goes communist at some point in his life, just like on this thread and the ebook. After WW1, Germany ends up falling to a communist revolution, which establishes a socialist/state capitalist union, which ends up being slowly purged and taken over by a totalitarian figure (Hitler) who has established a cult of personality and took away democracy, without exactly using racial rhetoric. The German Empire becomes its own Soviet Union (“Soviet Germany”).
- Stalin is still Georgian-born and an ethnic Georgian here, but he gets raised by a Russian family instead. He grows up to become a staunch supporter of Russian nationalism. After fighting in WW1, he becomes absolutely furious to find that Russia has lost territory from the conflict. Stalin participates in the White Movement (where they win in this scenario and a communist revolution ends up being very brutally suppressed), blames territorial losses on ethnic minorities (including Ukrainians, Kazakhs, and Germans) within the Russian Empire, becomes very popular amongst the White community and he finally becomes the leader of Russia. Stalin's ultimate goal is to expand Russian "living space" west into Poland, the Baltic states, and Germany, as well as to slaughter the Japanese and destroy their empire as revenge for the defeat in the Russo-Japanese War. In particular, Stalin has a deep-rooted hatred for Germany for the conflict they've had in the First World War. The Russian Empire becomes its own Nazi Germany (“Nazi Russia”).
- Commie Germany, which tried and failed to establish communism in Poland 1919-1921, and creates an allied communist puppet state in Czechoslovakia, all the while without annexing Bohemia or Moravia. Slovakia still becomes a puppet state, but is communist.
- Fascist Russia enacts a crash-industrialisation using nationalised corporations, and brings about a reign of terror against left-wing, far-left, communist, as well as right-wing but non-fascist factions. No collectivisation happens.
- Russia proposes a non-aggression pact with Germany, splitting the Baltic states between German and Russian spheres, but Fascist Russia secretly plans to take/colonise Germany, while Germany secretly plans to bring communism to Russia. In spite of that, the pact does resolve trade deficits for both nations.
Hard to see what would happen from there, though. Britain might get involved when Germany attacks France, and if it fears the possibility of a "domino effect" revolving around either communism or fascism.
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Problem with this is that Stalin is Georgian which are a South Caucasian People and not Slavic. I mean I guess Stalin could easily forge his birth documentation and history and say he was always Slavic (thoughts of Joe Steele from What Madness is This come flooding back where he portrayed himself Anglo-Saxon). Or maybe baby Stalin is looked at as an abomination by his father Besarion and mother Keke for his webbed feet and left in the streets where a Russian family adopts him and the young Stalin grows up embracing Russian nationalism and looks down on the other ethnicities for being backward and needing the Russians to prop them up.
He despises the Tsarist system for its backwardness as well and like Commie!Stalin believes Russia needs to undergo aggressive expansionism and industry before it risks being broken apart by capitalist nations. He participates in the White Movement and due to butterflies like maybe Lenin and Trotsky getting killed in 1918, the Whites win the Civil War and a Russian Republic is formed. Stalin like in the Soviet Union, uses the bureaucracy to appoint people he likes in positions of power until he is the leader of the oligarchy of Russia. The 1920s and 30s see massive industrialization and mass deportation of ethnic minorities as aggressive Russification takes hold and minority languages are wiped out. Millions die as ethnic republics are deliberately starved like the Holodomor in Ukraine. Collectivization won't really be employed though and a stronger private market exists but one that heavily favors ethnic Russians.
This alt-WW2 breaks out when the Soviets pursue an invasion of Poland and the Baltic States and Finland to reclaim all lost territories of the Russian Empire while also allying with a Balkan Slavic Pact and even a war breaks out in China against Japan (a Turkish front is possible to dislodge British and French colonies in the Middle East while also supporting Arab Nationalist groups. That's about all I got.
Actually I was imagining something a bit similar, and what I was finding "interesting" was thinking about how this idea of a master Russian race would go about and how this Stalin would be so fond of imagining a living space for Russians, and embracing Russian nationalism, all the while actually being a Georgian and not a Russian.
I quite like your ideas!
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I wonder if Hitler actually did order the attack and is now pretending he didn't as an excuse to destroy Thalmann. I doubt it, but it wouldn't be beyond Hitler.
You can’t fake a rage that is so strong that it can leave strong men in tears.
Deleted member 92121
I just now realized something. Has Rohm been dealt with? I don't remember him being mentioned, but by now we've seen most of the notorious figures of the Nazi party pre-rise to power. What's up with him and his nationalistic antisemite revolutionary rethoric?
This also leads to a question, which concerns a hypothetical scenario. Just got very curious seeing Goering leading a fascist party without Hitler: If OTL Hitler was to die, say, 1931 to July 1932(election time), what would the subsequent impact be on the Nazi party? Could a figure like Goering, who I presume would be the likely sucessor, keep the party together and achieve significant electoral victories? Would there be a split between his faction and Rohms SA? I imagine so.
This also leads to a question, which concerns a hypothetical scenario. Just got very curious seeing Goering leading a fascist party without Hitler: If OTL Hitler was to die, say, 1931 to July 1932(election time), what would the subsequent impact be on the Nazi party? Could a figure like Goering, who I presume would be the likely sucessor, keep the party together and achieve significant electoral victories? Would there be a split between his faction and Rohms SA? I imagine so.
Rohm could easily lean either way, depending on what side appeals most to him at the right moment. To me, he sounds like someone who would appreciate the red front's work though.
Rohm was a big believer in the socialist part of national socialism more than many other Nazis. Wouldn't be surprised if he "barnacles" himself to the Communists, especially of the "hitlirite" style.
If Hitler died in 1931/32, I don't think Göring would be in the running. He had contacts among industrialists and the upper classes, but no power base in the Party at the time. His hour came after the Nazi 'seizure of power'. I think Gregor Strasser taking over would be more likely. Ironically, at the time many elements in the German conservative elites considered Strasser a more agreeable fellow than Hitler because he supported the NSDAP joining a coalition government as a junior partner, whereas Hitler insisted that he should be chancellor. He also had a power basis within the Party as Reichsorganisationsleiter.
That said, to a large degree Nazi ideology was Hitlerism. It's quite telling that when it came to a confrontation with Hitler after the elections in November 1932, Strasser threw the towel and made no attempt to conspire. So it's likely that the Nazi Party would fracture.
As for Röhm I believe his socialist beliefs are very overstated. It was 'socialism of the trenches', hostility to the old elites in German society and the old officer corps of the Reichswehr, which he wanted to supplant with his SA. But it had nothing to do with Communism. Hell, he had good things to say about the Wittelsbachers in the 20s. His ideas for a 'Second Revolution' were vague and never went beyond rhetoric.
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