How's the Start?


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I don't get why you added the harem part it seems to political for me plus you glossed over it to much and didn'tshow the other side nor their arguments at all completely unnecessary and seems to be added for nothing just to make some political statement that's all
What???
Showing the advancement in feminist movement is political?
Ottoman harem and it's abolition has a large symbolic significance. That the Sultan and the royal family acquiesced to the demand's of feminist movement is just not nothing! It has a effect on the politics of the ottoman empire as a whole and is really a great victory for the movement.

Your statement for it being unnecessary and adding nothing of value is just bizzare!
 
Well I dont think the US would do another slaughter of the Filipinos in an insane scale, the first war is where they killed almost 1/5 to 1/3 of the population I believe if my sources are right, it was horrible. Also why would they do that, it would only lit the fire more, it would just inspire more people to be more radical as it might happen to them and to their family.
I guess it would depend on the US population in the Philippines, while I doubt they would butcher them instead of see as assets like hostages, if a couple died in his troops then yeah I can see him kill himself to try and spare his family retaliation.

Wow that war killed a hell of a lot more people than I thought, I know US killed a island during war but given the many Islands that make the Philippines that's insane.
 
I don't get why you added the harem part it seems to political for me plus you glossed over it to much and didn'tshow the other side nor their arguments at all completely unnecessary and seems to be added for nothing just to make some political statement that's all
Seems a very odd thing to say' The question of Wonens rights has a large impact on a countrys political and economic development The developments covered seem appropriate for consideration when looking at how a society modernises and echo events elsewhere at the time' i know some men consider any discussion of Womens rights inherently divisive and inapproprizte though and whilst i hope this is not your intent that is rather the impression given by your comment
 
What???
Showing the advancement in feminist movement is political?
Ottoman harem and it's abolition has a large symbolic significance. That the Sultan and the royal family acquiesced to the demand's of feminist movement is just not nothing! It has a effect on the politics of the ottoman empire as a whole and is really a great victory for the movement.

Your statement for it being unnecessary and adding nothing of value is just bizzare!
Sadly some men consder any dicussion of sexual equality contraversial
 

Codyius

Banned
What???
Showing the advancement in feminist movement is political?
Ottoman harem and it's abolition has a large symbolic significance. That the Sultan and the royal family acquiesced to the demand's of feminist movement is just not nothing! It has a effect on the politics of the ottoman empire as a whole and is really a great victory for the movement.

Your statement for it being unnecessary and adding nothing of value is just bizzare!
Interesting that I find your statement as well as bizarre and adds nothing to the argument beside the other side has won that's what I said before the reason I like this timeline because it offers good points from the both sides not just the other side won because the second one agreed that what was so bizarre to me and lead to my statement
 

Codyius

Banned
Ban
Sadly some men consder any dicussion of sexual equality contraversial
Wow just wow me asking for good arguments with convincing talks is considered controversial sadly some women if you don't say my queen is controversial just wow now I get why people call you femekazi
 
Sadly some men consder any dicussion of sexual equality contraversial

Wow just wow me asking for good arguments with convincing talks is considered controversial sadly some women if you don't say my queen is controversial just wow now I get why people call you femekazi
Hows about we not throw slurs or generalizations of genders at each other ya? If you want to argue take it to DMs or some other site before the mods deal with you. You have the right to disagree all you like but try to keep it civil.
 
Wow just wow me asking for good arguments with convincing talks is considered controversial sadly some women if you don't say my queen is controversial just wow now I get why people call you femekazi
I simply said that some men cpnsider any discussion of Sexual equality as in this TL contraversial that surely is true. Whereas it seems to me to be an important part of the consideration of a nation's development. I would not have thought that statement was taking a position on anyof the debate merely stating that it is worth discussing. I do not believe i insulted anyone as your comments certainly suggest that for youi ft is contraversial. That is my last comment.
 
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And for this reason, food (or tea) derailments are better.

Back to the topic:
What will happen to Tunes?

It would either become independent from the Ottoman Empire (due to being an enclave) or it would be a kind of Alaska for the Ottoman Empire.

PS: The population in Arabia is still very small, Turkey could try to Turkize the population or at least part of it.

PS2: the Ottoman Empire as a solid power could have its sphere of influence, over North Africa and Muslim countries. If he succeeds, he should abolish customs to "connect" the Muslim market of different countries (and influence that market)
 
Back to the topic:
What will happen to Tunes?

It would either become independent from the Ottoman Empire (due to being an enclave) or it would be a kind of Alaska for the Ottoman Empire.

PS: The population in Arabia is still very small, Turkey could try to Turkize the population or at least part of it.

1. You mean Libya (or well, Tripoli/Tripolitania), Tunis has been a French protectorate for a while.

2. The Turkish and Arab population of the Ottoman Empire is very close I think, I am not sure that would be possible. Also going for a polyethnic civic nationalism is a much more workable idea than an ethnic based nationalism for the Ottoman Empire.
 
1. You mean Libya (or well, Tripoli/Tripolitania), Tunis has been a French protectorate for a while.

2. The Turkish and Arab population of the Ottoman Empire is very close I think, I am not sure that would be possible. Also going for a polyethnic civic nationalism is a much more workable idea than an ethnic based nationalism for the Ottoman Empire.

Yes, is Libya. My mistake.
 
Chapter 40: Germanic and Societal Developments
Chapter 40: Germanic and Societal Developments

***

“The creation of the German Republic in 1917 was the signal throughout Europe that a new era was beginning. Historically Germany had been the place where a monarch in desperate need of a marriage could get free prince’s and princess’s for basically free, however under the leadership of Gustav Noske, the new Chancellor, the country of Germany was to move past their imperial and monarchical heritage and look forward to becoming a proper social democratic country in Europe. A shining beacon of democracy, and democratic socialism with proper partisan legislation and no power of the military over the legislation.

Well, at least that was the hope. The reality of the situation turned out to be rather different. The country was riddled with economic problems. During the Great War, the Germans had funded the war entirely by borrowing from banks and any lenders, intent on repaying them after winning the war and imposing war reparations on the defeated Entente. Of course, the situation turned out to be rather different, and the country was now in severe debt, with a total war debt of around 98 Billion gold marks. And the situation on the ground deteriorated to such a degree that all of the former Royal families of Germany were allowed to return to Germany, barring the Hohenzollerns, in order to make sure that the vast amount of wealth that the monarchs, grand dukes, and dukes possessed would be able to stymie the economic downfall a bit, and that did work out favorably for the Germans.

Their economic problems however continued, due to the heavy war reparations that was levied on Germany by France and Russia, all of whom wanted to get their ‘fair share’ of the reparations that would arise from the German payments, so that they could pay off their own debts that they owed to private banks and the United Kingdom, both of whom had funded their own war efforts against the Central Powers. Furthermore, the Gold Standard continued to compound economic recovery of the country. Before the Great War, the global monetary system was based on the gold standard with fixed rates of exchange. During the Great War, the Gold Standard was removed to make sure that a constraint against more printing of money was removed, however the cost for removing the Gold Standard was that the cost of living in Germany increased by four times on average, which only compounded the political debate about whether or not the government should or should not re-instate the Gold Standard.

The political situation of the German Republic wasn’t stable either. The so-called Suicide Clause, or Article 48 of the new constitution basically allowed any president to rule by decree in any emergency, (what kind of emergency was left vague and would create a massive amount of problems in the future), and the Proportional Representation system of the new government and country guaranteed by the new constitution ensured that whatever party or government was in power, it would always be weak, and would have to compromise, consuming precious amounts of time that many didn’t believe the government had.

But the greatest problem that the government would have would be the political radicalization. For many in Germany, you were either on the right or on the left, and there was no center, which was a bad thing for the Zentrum Party, as their support base was slowly eroded. Of course, there were moderate leftists, like the SPD, and the hardline Leftists, like the USPD, and then there were moderate and hardline rightists as well. But the center was gradually being eroded due to political polarization. The situation came to a head during the 1918 German Coup.

Noske had ordered the disbandment of around 20 regiments of the German army and paramilitary conforming with the Treaty of Versailles, however several generals in the army hated that idea. Two prominent German Generals of the Great War, Oskar von Hutier and Walther von Luttwitz started to conspire with one another in order to dethrone the new Republic and install a new military regime in Germany, which would openly flout the Treaty of Versailles. Most of the Freikorps, all of whom were involved in the brutal massacres during the Silesian Uprisings, were mostly extremely opposed to the democratic government and this provided Hutier and Luttwitz with the opportunity that they needed.


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Von Luttwitz

On the 7th of April, 1918, Luttwitz, who was also the highest military commander in Brandenburg at the time, told Noske that he would not accept the dissolution of 20 elite regiments, which would destroy the offensive capability of the already downtrodden army. This open rejection of governmental orders horrified many moderate officers in the army and they managed to create a meeting between Luttwitz and the right-wing parties and the government.

Noske and President Liebknecht both agreed to meet with Luttwitz so that they could sort out the differences of the military and the government. Luttwitz demanded that the National Assembly be dissolved, and that new elections of the Reichstagg take place under the electoral system of Imperial Germany, and the appointment of technocrats as the Secretaries for Foreign Affairs, Economic Affairs and Finance to make sure that the economic situation of the country improved, and he also demanded that Luttwitz himself be appointed as the Commander of the German Army. Liebknecht was so angered by the demands that he threw Luttwitz out of the presidential mansion (not literally), and demanded his resignation the next day.

Luttwitz returned back to the outskirts of Berlin to the barracks and told Hutier that the coup that they had planned would have to go on ahead. Aided by Waldemar Pabst, Traugott von Jagow, and several other members of the far right militias of the country, the 10,000 men in the barracks began to march to Berlin itself. Luttwitz the next day wasn’t dismissed but he was suspended from his post as commander and Noske ordered three regiments to take up positions in Berlin, but he figured that a coup was unlikely. Nonetheless, commanded by General Hans von Seeckt, the German military that was ordered to stop any coup attempt decided that they wouldn’t fire on any German.

Their reluctance to fire at Germans was one sided. When the 10 or so regiments under the personal command of Luttwitz and Hutier entered Berlin, they opened fire and marched to occupy all major governmental buildings in Berlin. An hour later Noske, Luxemburg and Liebknecht were told of the impending Coup. The three were forced to retreat from the capital, and they made their base at Hanover, whilst the capital city quickly fell under the command of the coup plotters. Noske asked for the troops defending Berlin to fire and shoot, however Seeckt replied back stating, ‘Troops will not fire on troops. We can disapprove of their actions, but we will not fire at them.’ [1]


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Supporters of the Coup marching in Bonn in support of the coup.

Brandenburg, Pomerania and Silesia as well as Saxony mostly accepted the new military regime, and Luttwitz’s appointment of himself as President and Hutier as Chancellor was even celebrated in many places, however in the western tracts of Germany they found resistance. Luxemburg, popular among the labourers and working class, and the commoners pleaded through radio asking them to resist the new coup attempt. And they responded. The labourers went on strike, and factory workers refused to work until the government was restored to power. The economic power of the new military regime quickly collapsed as the industrial economy refused to work unless their government was rescinded. The agrarian populace started to riot as well, and finally with the country paralyzed, the sub-commanders of the entire coup attempt started to defect over to Liebknecht and Luxemburg.

On April 15, the military regime was toppled when the commanders took their regiments with them and recaptured Berlin from the would be plotters. Luttwitz was forced into exile into Switzerland and Hutier withdrew to some of his estates in the Netherlands. However the actions of the left wing militias that participated in the liberation of Berlin was horrendous. They massacred several families of right wing politicians, and this only further radicalized the populace of the country. Now, all hopes of conscious debate and conscious rapprochement was dead. Now, only a state of unspoken war existed between the left and right militias of Germany.

As Liebknecht and Noske tried to desperately reform the country, the country was starting to devolve into paramilitary caused ideological warfare. Militias fought with each other on the streets, and they heckled poor old politicians just trying to move from their offices to their homes, intimidating them. Several politicians caught trying to act against them were killed and assassinated, leading to the killings of nearly 300 politicians from 1918-1919. The most prominent killing was that of the Foreign Secretary, Paul Levi when he tried to use British and French intelligence to monitor militia operations in Germany, it backfired on him spectacularly.

Finally it was time for the German nation to go to polls. Noske, humiliated after the 1918 Coup Attempt, had stated that he would resign from the post of chancellor after the elections, regardless of outcome and was succeeded to the post of leader of the SPD by Phillip Scheidemann. Scheidemann was much more wary of the USPD and the hardline leftists that the party held, and the USPD-SPD Coalition that the government had formed was starting to become strained due to the mutual dislike that Luxemburg and Scheidemann had for one another. Meanwhile the right had all coalesced under the pragmatic and well intentioned leadership of Rudolf Heinze, who led the merger of the German Conservative Party, German Fatherland Party, Free Conservative Party and the German People’s Party into the German Nationalist and Social Party, or in German, the Deutschenationale und Soziale Partei or simply the DUSP. The DUSP had several factions within their party, but the most powerful and prominent was that of Heinze himself, which advocated for the return to a Prussian-constitutionalist monarchy, and a more middle rightist government. The DUSP had been discredited by the Coup Attempt of 1918 but not by much and they were a power in German economics to be reckoned with.

Zentrum and the FDP were essentially the only real party that was in the center of all things and moderate and they didn’t manage to campaign all that well, considering everyone was being ensnared by the leftist and rightist propaganda, nonetheless, led by the able leadership of Adolf Grober, Zentrum did manage to conduct some well paced campaign speeches and conventions that probably swayed some of the electorate.


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By the end of the elections, the SPD had won 120 seats and the USPD had won 113 seats in the Reichstag, with the SPD-USPD Alliance and Coalition gaining absolute majority of 233 seats out of a chamber with 386 seats. The DUSP succeeded in gaining 90 seats, whilst Zentrum received 58 seats and the FDP won 3 seats. Independents managed to nab 2 seats as well. As per the agreement between the USPD and SPD party, the chancellorship was rotated every federal election, and Rosa Luxemburg was chosen from the USPD to become the Chancellor of Germany whilst Philip Scheidemann became the vice-Chancellor representing the SPD party in the executive branch of the government.

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Rosa Luxemburg

The unstable government would move on ahead with their new chancellor, however as 1919 ended, the Germans were going to enter one of their most horrible experience in history. The Great German Panic was about to begin.” Germany in the Interwar Era: Radicalization of All. © 2009

***

“The government of Otto Ritter von Dandl in Bavaria was also an unstable one. Whilst Rupprecht I himself was exceedingly popular among the Bavarian population, the government did not afford the same kind of popularity as their sovereign. Otto von Dandl was attacked from all sides for various weakness that sometimes did not even exist and were simply made up. For example in 1918 despite the fact that the yearly budget that was made upon by von Dandl had clear exemptions and tax breaks included to make sure that industrial growth was emphasized by the government, many opponents of his government claimed that the budget held no exemption to make industries grow. These ‘facts’ were blatantly untrue and made up to discredit von Dandl.

Von Dandl responded by making sure that the loose federation of partisan politicians that were allied with him were merged to become the new Bavarian People’s Party, which was a soft Bavarian Nationalist, and pro-protectionist political party within Bavaria. To meet this challenge were mostly the leftists of Bavaria. Officially they were rather like the SPD in Germany, and moderate in their policy outlook, however their leader, Eugene Levine, was a known republican and even though he told Rupprecht I that he would not disavow the monarchy unless the people demanded it through popular referendum, he was still a wily fellow that no one really trusted. And then there were the German nationalists and unionists who believed that independence for Bavaria was a mistake, and that they should rejoin Germany. This party, called the German Nationalist Party In Bavaria was a mixed bag of moderate unionists and radical right unionists who wanted union with Germany at any cost. There was also a faction of people present who wanted to join Austria instead of Germany to retain the monarchy and not join the unstable mess that was Germany during this time period.


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Eugene Levine

Where the Left and the Bavarian People’s Party (BPP) disagreed with one another in policy and foreign ideas, the two were united in their hatred and anger at the German Reunification Party. They wanted to stop any idea of reunification and wanted to cherish the independence of Germany and the Lefts and the BPP repeatedly allied with one another to undermine the presence and the influence of the German Reunification Party, which was led by Franz Ritter von Epp, an avowed radical nationalist who believed in the Stab in the Back Myth that was being flowed throughout Germany during this time period.

Whereas the BPP and the Lefts in Bavaria were wary of using violence, and by and large did not use violence to meet their own goals, the violent faction of the German Reunification Party had no such qualms and repeatedly instigated several tension raising events in Germany and Bavaria. In particular, German citizens in Wurzburg were killed by several radical members of the party to incite Germany to invade but Bavaria gave reparations to the killings, and the event blew over. Austria, too exercised heavy influence in Bavaria and was the largest backer of the Bavarian regime, with Austrian troops even occupying the mountain passes as a safeguard against German invasion. Austrian investment poured into Bavaria and many German nationalists bitterly complained that Bavarian was turning into little more than an Austrian puppet state, which to be fair to them, was not that far from the truth.

Led by Otto von Lossow, several Bavarian German Nationalists started to boycott the entire independence process of the nation and demanded that they reintegrate with the German government, however all aspects of the Bavarian government opposed this and the Bavarian Paramilitary pre-empted a military response in early 1919 which saw von Lossow and the would be civil conflict makers killed and or imprisoned for life.

Amidst this backdrop, the Bavarian country went to polls on the 27th of October, 1919. The Bavarian People’s Party won the plurality of the total seats available in the Landtag, taking 84 out of 205 seats whilst the Left Faction trailed behind at 66. The German Nationalists and Reunification members gained 51 seats in the Landtag and 4 independents were elected to the Landtag as well.

This gave a clear mandate to the BPP to continue ruling the nation and Otto von Dandl made a minority government and formed a new cabinet, whilst retaining the position of Minister-President.


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Hans Ritter von Seisser became the President of the Bavarian Landtag and became involved in stabilizing the government. He entered talks with the Left and managed to calm them down enough to make sure that a stable bipartisan government could be formed out of the chaos that was Bavarian politics during this time period. As the country entered the new decade, the Bavarian nation, though quite unstable, would manage to flourish and become prosperous, before the downturn of the 30s truly devastated the country. Nonetheless, for the moment, the increased cooperation between the Left and the BPP allowed the country to stabilize its internal politics.” Rupprecht I, the Martyr of Bavaria, A Biography, © 1999.

***

“Society in the Ottoman Empire at the end of 1919 and the beginning of the new decade was a totally new one, and one that was full of optimism. Let us begin this small analysis by looking at three major societal factors – women, religion and sports.

Women in 1910 had the right to vote, granted that they had a suitable amount of landed wealth to back their claim to vote up, however universal Women’s votes was not available and certainly old Islamic Law on Women persisted throughout the Ottoman Empire and they had negligible rights, even though the rights of everyone was guaranteed by the 1908 Constitution. However the passage of the Women’s Rights Acts had allowed Women to become involved in all facets of Ottoman society at the time, and ensured that the Women would be able to become proper manpower and economic assets of the Ottoman nation state. The near doubling of the Ottoman electorate from the inclusion of all women over 18 fundamentally shifted the Political sphere of influence of the Ottoman political parties as all of them jockeyed with one another for influence in women’s participation in politics. Women were given property rights, and social rights, and they were also able to inherit land and property from their parents, something which had been kept from them, even in the 1908 Constitution. Polygamy was still prevalent in the Ottoman Empire’s Islamic population during this time period, however the laws passed to protect Women and their fundamental rights allowed the Woman to choose of her own free will to join a polygamous wedding, with the permission of the first wife explicitly required before any such wedding according the Women Rights Act. Women were guaranteed equal pay in the industrial sector and Women became a vital part of the Ottoman industrial working class as the Ottomans, who industrialized late, had no qualms about shoving the Women into industries if it meant better industrial showing. The abolition of the Ottoman Imperial Harem from a total sexual connotation to becoming a singularly educational institution was also a great victory for Ottoman Women.


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Halide Edib Adivar

During the 1918 Ottoman General election 13 women deputies were elected, chief among them women like Halide Edib Adivar, and Hayriye Melek Hunc, both of whom had been ardent women right’s leaders in the Ottoman Empire. Both of them had been included in the Ottoman Chamber of Deputies as a part of the Liberal Union political party. Women were allowed to have their own Women Leagues and Women Trade Unions, which only increased the productivity of the nation. One famous catchphrase among Canadian Women’s Suffragettes after 1918 was that ‘Look the Oriental Women in the Ottoman Empire have the vote, but you don’t!’. This catchphrase was shown in several posters in Quebec and throughout Canada during the entirety of the Canadian Women’s Suffrage Movement.

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Seniha Sultan, the Ottoman Princess who supported the Women's Movement in the Ottoman Empire.

There was also a growing movement in the Ottoman Empire within the women’s community about installing a permanent absolute primogeniture succession system in which the eldest regardless of gender would become the Ottoman Sultan/Sultana. This was aimed at the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Abdulmejid I because, after the death of Sehzade Ahmed Nihad in the Balkan War, Osman Fuad was the heir apparent to the Ottoman Empire. Abdulmejid II’s eldest son, Sehzade Omer Faruk had renounced all claims to the Ottoman Throne to live a solitary life [2], which would make Abdulmejid II’s second child, Princess Durru Shehvar Durdana Begum Sahiba, popularly known as Durrusehvar Sultan, would become the heir apparent of the Ottoman Imperial Throne if absolute primogeniture was adopted by the Ottoman Imperial household. This movement was supported by prominent Ottoman princesses, such as the kind and gentle Mediha Sultan and the cunning, sly and beautiful Seniha Sultan, who joined forces with the Ottoman Absolute Primogeniture Movement to make sure that the Ottoman Imperial family adopted absolute primogeniture. While they would not succeed in the 1910s or even the 1920s or 1930s, the 1942 Act of the Succession Settlement would allow absolute primogeniture in the Ottoman Empire and allowed Durrusehvar Sultan to succeed Osman IV in 1947 as the first Sultana of the Ottoman Empire.

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Islam and Christianity in the Changing Ottoman Empire

Most members of the Ottoman Islamic community were the followers of the Hanafi school of Islam within the Sunni community. The Hanafi believe that the Quran, Hadith, Ijma (concensus), and Qiyas (legal analogy) alongside Istihsan (Juristic Preference) combined together with Urf (normative customs) formed the basis of the Sharia or Islamic Law within the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans also followed the doctrine of Ahl al-Ray, which is a movement which roughly translates into Common Sense. It advocates the use of reasoning to arrive at legal decisions and proper decisions. Over turn, the al-Ray movement was sidelined during the 16th century, however after the 1908 Revolution, this movement was revived, and the al-Ray movement within Islam, which called for proper reasoning and common sense became an important aspect of Ottoman Sunnism within the empire.

Shias and Ibadis within the Ottoman Empire were also relatively free, and the state was tolerant towards them since time immemorial. The last major attack on the Shia community under Ottoman lands had been in 1632 when the Ottomans and Safavids had gone to war and several Shia Turkmen supported the Safavids. But after that the Shias and Sunnis had lived on in peace. The Ibadis were too small a community within the Ottoman Empire to truly become a large representation of the Ottoman Islamic community. The only Ibadi majority areas on the planet was in Berber lands in Algeria and Oman. Though many Ottoman businessmen and groups did give refuge to many Ibadis fleeing French colonization in Algeria.

The Ottomans, unlike the Egyptians, Maghrebis, Iranians and other Islam majority areas, were also unusually extremely superstitious. All good Ottoman Islamic peoples wear little charms, such as necklaces, and bands across their writs to protect themselves from evil spirits and forces. The greatest of these evils according to Ottoman theology is called the Evil Eye. Funnily enough the Evil Eye is not a specific evil spirit such as the Ghoul or any other spirit that Western media has ripped off of Turko-Arabic Mythology, but it pertains specifically towards envy and jealousy, which the Ottomans considered to be a great evil in its own right.


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A typical wrist necklace used to ward off the Evil Eye. Worn by virtually every Ottoman Muslim in the empire even today.

For the first time since the rule of Suleiman the Magnificent, the Ottoman Christian population were also allowed to mingle with the larger population at large freely. They were allowed to do anything they wished as long as they didn’t breach Ottoman laws and jurisdiction. In fact the Christian community was at times over-represented by the Ottoman government to make up for their past mistakes, and to dampen nationalist feelings. The Patriarchate of Constantinople was strengthened by the Ottomans by giving more money and funding to the Patriarchate, and Mt. Athos had its autonomy re-affirmed, and the governmental bodies in Mt. Athos began to issue Ottoman passports for citizens of their semi-independent realm in recognition of Ottoman efforts in their territories. For the first time in centuries as well, intermarriages between the Islamic and Christian faith was allowed in equal terms. Christian women and men were allowed to marry Islamic men and women on equal grounds. As per Ottoman law, both sides of the families would have the consent and pressing to convert the other spouse was explicitly prohibited by the government due to it being a breach of freedom of religion. Spouses were allowed to keep their faith and in the case of interfaith marriages, marriage ceremonies in both faiths were conducted. Generally the children borne of these interfaith marriages chose to adopt the faith of their father, as was and is typical of all interfaith marriages in the entire world. Some even adopted both, which forced the Ottoman Empire’s census department in 1937 to create a new religious option of ‘Islam-Christian Syncretism’ due to the large amount of interfaith marriages going on after 1908 between the Islamic and Christian community of the country.

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Sports In the Changing Ottoman Empire

Perhaps the greatest and most well popular sport in the Ottoman Empire would be football, followed closely by cricket. Football was played in the Ottoman Empire for the first time in 1853 after some British and French officers in Constantinople during the Crimean War got bored and began to play football with one another in an open field, attracting the local populace to look on at the strange game. By 1898, it was one of the more popular sports of the Ottoman Empire, though repressed under the rule of Sultan Abdul Hamid II.

In 1909, the game was stopped from being oppressed due to the constitutional government taking power, and the game exploded in popularity throughout the Ottoman Empire. Several attempts to create a proper professional league in the Ottoman Empire had taken place in the decade following the official legalization of the game, however it was only in 1918 when these attempts succeeded, and the Ottoman National Football League was founded with 10 major football teams:-


  • Constantinople Sultans
  • Izmir Sailors
  • Tirana Foxes
  • Salonika Rangers
  • Baghdad Wizards
  • Jerusalem Monks
  • Jeddah Lions
  • Tripoli Warriors
  • Trabzon Eagles
  • Prishtina Serpents
These ten football teams formed the aegis of Ottoman professional football community and the 1918 League would see the Izmir Sailors win whilst in 1919 the Baghdad Wizards won the cup. The League still exists today, though with 16 teams rather than just 10.

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Members of the Baghdad Wizards posing for a photo after winning the 1919 Cup.

Cricket was introduced to the Ottoman Empire by a joint British-Canadian ecological survey group in 1881 when the British Ecological communities were on their frenzy of conducting ecological surveys throughout the Ottoman Empire and Africa at the time. The first Cricket game was played in Erzurum in 1881 after an exhausting journey up the nearby mountains, when the British and Canadians decided to have a small game. The game became immensely popular in eastern Anatolia. However unlike Football, which was repressed, but many still turned a blind eye towards it, Cricket did not afford that same luxury and the sport was brutally suppressed by Abdul Hamid II to the point that revitalizing the sport after 1918 proved to be a massive task. It was only through the efforts of Rupert Hickmott, a member of the New Zealand National Cricket Team and a part of the British Military Attache in Constantinople during the Great War that the game was revived and in the year of 1919 the Ottoman Vilayet Cricket System was implemented, allowing a low level professional league for prospective cricketeers in the Ottoman countryside take place.

Several other sports in the Ottoman Empire such as volleyball and high jumping also became popular in the Ottoman empire during this time period.

---

As one might expect, the Ottoman society had been changed radically during the decade of 1910, and the development would continue.” The Evolution of Ottoman Society, © 2018.

***

***

[1] – true quote from OTL during the Kapp Putsch.

[2] – true story from otl.

***

Coming Next

The Bulgarian Recovery

Serbian Revanchism

Russian Politics

The 1920 Regional Ottoman Elections


***
 
I think succession change is a little too far, entire religious establishment would oppose it, and threaten legitimacy of the caliph and destroy the very office. Also would threaten the dynasty legitimacy aswell so house of osman dies with a female line?. Why on earth would conservatives allow it? Woman getting the vote doesn't mean equal succession is inevitable no muslim monarchy has it as far as im aware, places like Japan its controversial. Its just going to cause more problems than its worth religious establishment and religious unity can easily be broken with this.

We also never seen it any real strong movement in any muslim monarchy otl. The ottomans where you have arabs and very conservative and religious groups plus the caliphate makes that too far. Whats the argument argue the Rashidun, Umayyad, and Abbasid are wrong?
 
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CalBear

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Wow just wow me asking for good arguments with convincing talks is considered controversial sadly some women if you don't say my queen is controversial just wow now I get why people call you femekazi
Well, thanks for stopping by.

Made 5 posts, two of them trolling, including dropping "femekazi" since joining five days ago.

Trolling Straight Out of the Gate is one of The Eight Ways to Crash Land.
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I think succession change is a little too far, entire religious establishment would oppose it, and threaten legitimacy of the caliph and destroy the very office. Also would threaten the dynasty legitimacy aswell so house of osman dies with a female line?. Why on earth would conservatives allow it? Woman getting the vote doesn't mean equal succession is inevitable no muslim monarchy has it as far as im aware, places like Japan its controversial. Its just going to cause more problems than its worth religious establishment and religious unity can easily be broken with this.
Actually many Islamic theologicians advocate for women succession which is why the ottomans in 1878 came very close to implementing absolute primogeniture. Though yes like you said it will not be easy. It takes a total of 32 years of movement, protests and influence to change the succession law and that too under a progressive sultan
 
Actually many Islamic theologicians advocate for women succession which is why the ottomans in 1878 came very close to implementing absolute primogeniture. Though yes like you said it will not be easy. It takes a total of 32 years of movement, protests and influence to change the succession law and that too under a progressive sultan
can i have a source on this, this seems to be a anomile rather than normal again no muslim monarchy does this, and any attempt have been massive challanges. Again this isn't just a random sultanate its the ottoman empire the caliphate. Your effectively going to destroy its legitimacy one way or another doing this. People won't except a female caliph nor will they except a caliph who isn't sultan. Your just giving anyone a chance to use a valid argument to declare the caliphate forefitted. Again i think your overestimiating how big an issue this would be when there not otl example of a mass movement for female succession in muslim world with how important the religious conotations are here. So 32 years of a movement will change a 1,000ish institution in the caliphate?
 
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can i have a source on this, this seems to be a anomile rather than normal again no muslim monarchy does this, and any attempt have been massive challanges. Again this isn't just a random sultanate its the ottoman empire the caliphate. Your effectively going to destroy its legitimacy one way or another doing this. People won't except a female caliph nor will they except a caliph who isn't sultan. Your just giving anyone a chance to use a valid argument to declare the caliphate forefitted. Again i think your overestimiating how big an issue this would be when there not otl example of a mass movement for female succession in muslim world with how important the religious conotations are here. So 32 years of a movement will change a 1,000ish institution in the caliphate?
If it's just about the Ottoman Sultan, that maybe fine. But because the Ottoman also claim the title of the caliphate, it will be more problematic.
 
If it's just about the Ottoman Sultan, that maybe fine. But because the Ottoman also claim the title of the caliphate, it will be more problematic.
Thats the issue ottomans have 2 major forms of legitimacy the dynasty which is male bloodline even modern otl, and caliphate of islam, both lost with this change. People fought for both of these reasons otl. Im not against female succession but with the ottomans without special reasoning such as no male heirs or them being children you can't just change it.
 
can i have a source on this, this seems to be a anomile rather than normal again no muslim monarchy does this, and any attempt have been massive challanges. Again this isn't just a random sultanate its the ottoman empire the caliphate. Your effectively going to destroy its legitimacy one way or another doing this. People won't except a female caliph nor will they except a caliph who isn't sultan. Your just giving anyone a chance to use a valid argument to declare the caliphate forefitted. Again i think your overestimiating how big an issue this would be when there not otl example of a mass movement for female succession in muslim world with how important the religious conotations are here. So 32 years of a movement will change a 1,000ish institution in the caliphate?
If it's just about the Ottoman Sultan, that maybe fine. But because the Ottoman also claim the title of the caliphate, it will be more problematic.
Thats the issue ottomans have 2 major forms of legitimacy the dynasty which is male bloodline even modern otl, and caliphate of islam, both lost with this change. People fought for both of these reasons otl. Im not against female succession but with the ottomans without special reasoning such as no male heirs or them being children you can't just change it.
No it really isn't. Late Ottoman Society: The Intellectual Legacy states in 1877, the First Ottoman Chamber of Deputies stopped a bill passing a law to allow women to be able to inherit the Ottoman Throne by 7 votes. By 1915, despite Western claims, Ottoman society, barring the Harem of the Sultan, had become largely progressive in regards to Women so much so that when Abdulmejid II made his daughter the heir apparent in 1923 for the role of Caliph, almost everyone in the Islamic world accepted it, (people forget that the Islamic world was far more progressive until the 1920s and 30s) with Mustafa Kemal even stating that it was a good day for women in Islam with that proclaimation. In Islamic Theology, there are both for and against arguments for Women as head of state. Going to quote Islamic View of Women Leadership as Head of State: A Critical Analysis by Mohammad Elius for this.

Arguments against women's leadership in Islam:-

1. Though the women have similar rights as men, yet men have a degree above them (Al-Quran 2:228). Hence the argument issince the man is superior to woman; she cannot rule over men.​
2. Evidence of two women is equal to that of one man (Al-Quran 2:282). So, the argument is that a woman is half of a man and she cannot rule over him.​
3. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women (Al-Quran 4:34). So, the argument is: If men are the protector of women, how can women rule over men?​
4. When the prophet of Islam (Peace be upon him) heard that Persians had made the daughter of Kisra ruler over them, he said: Never shall a people prosper who make a woman their ruler​

Arguments for Women's Leadership in Islam:-

1. There is no verse in the Quran regarding the permission or prohibition of a woman's rule in a country. The Quran is silent on this particular point. The silence of the Quran on this crucial issue means that it has been left to the Muslim community to decide according to the circumstances.​
2. The women have rights similar to those of the men (Al-Quran 2:228). If men have the right to become head of the state or government, why can't a woman aspire for this office?​
3. The story of a woman ruler, Bilqis, the Queen of Sheba, has been related by the Quran in its chapter 27 (Sura 27). From the description of the Holy Quran, we come to notice that:​
a) Her rule was not that of an autocrat. She had the very good quality of consulting others on all important affairs of the state.​
b) She was a very wise woman and her sound opinion could not be ignored. Prophet Solomon (A) tested her judgment by miraculously producing her throne in a disguised form and she recognized it.​
c) And on the top of all she accepted Islam when she met the Prophet Solomon (A), despite the fact that she was the ruler of disbelievers and had lived all her life among the polytheists​
4. The Quran has not talked to the rule of the Queen of Sheba with disapproval and condemnation. Rather her habit of the consulting others before taking decision on vital issues, her wisdom and sound judgment and her readiness to accept Islam at once rather than persisting in disbelief, have found special mention in the Quran.​
5. According to the Holy Quran (9:71) both Muslim men and women are protecting friends of each other, they are to enjoin the right and forbid the wrong which is primarily the duty of the state and one needs to have a position to discharge it effectively. For performing this duty, Allah has made women as much protecting friends of men as men are of women. The Holy Quran directs women to discharge the duty of enjoining good and forbidding wrong which can be discharged most effectively by the ulil amr (person in authority) who symbolizes the State. The verse paves the way for the women to become the repository of state authority including the authority of the Head of the State (Usmani 1991: 258-61).​
6. The functions of an Islamic state have been outlined by the Holy Quran in its verse 41 of chapter 22. These functions include establishing of prayer, collection of Zakat and enjoining good and forbidding wrong. The responsibility of discharging these functions has been laid on the shoulders of both Muslim men and women.​
7. The supporters of the women's rule does not accept as authentic the narration (riwayah) pertaining to the daughter of Kisra since its reporter Abu Bakra was found guilty of false evidence and was even punished by Hazrat Omar (R) (Choudhury 1997:172).​
8. Regarding the second narration (riwayah) Maulana Abdul Halim opines that this tradition has no origin (Hossain 1987: 225). According to Nawawi, it is fabricated and false (Hossain 1987: 225). Professor Doctor Abdul Hamid Mutawali gave his opinion that this tradition is one of the many forged and fabricated traditions (Hossain 1987:221). The reasons are:​
a. It is not agreeable with human reason, logic and rationality. In fact, intelligence or rationality is not the preserve of men only. A large percentage of the male species is not intelligent enough. There may be women having more intelligence than man.​
b. The tradition is contrary to the Quran when Allah stressed that the duty to enjoin the right and forbid the wrong is of men and women alike [Q.9:71]. How can the authenticity be acknowledged when women are considered defective in reason and religion?​
c. It is contrary to the historical facts pertaining to the period of the Prophet (pbuh) and his rightly guided Caliphs (Khulafa AlRashidun). There are a number of precedents in which women were consulted or their opinions prevailed. It is widely known that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) consulted Hazrat Umme Salma (R) on the occasion of Treaty of Hudaibia and he followed her advice. Prophet Muhammad also followed the advice of Khadija (R) at the very beginning of revelation when he was frustrated. Hazrat Aisha (R) corrected Hazrat Abu Huraira (R) in respect of traditions on the basis of their contradicting the Quran. A lady interrupted Hazrat Umar (R) successfully with regard to his proposal about fixing the dower (Mahr) at a low level. After the assassination of Hazrat Umar (R) the board appointed by him for selection of a Caliph consulted women too.​

There were also several Islamic Prophets and theologicians such as Mawlana Ashraf ali Thanvi, Imam Malik Allama Syaid Sulaiman, Syaid Sulaiman Nadvi who preached women's right to leadership as well.

Whew, my crash course on Islamic theology last summer paid off.
 
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