I was indeed talking about a push from Turkey here plus an attack from army Group B from the steppes. You are correct on the difficulties of the push, I just pointed out that it would be closer and with better strike distance from the airforce although I doubt the Germans would bomb Baku as they want it's infrastructure for themselves. It is also a front that tanks aren't as useful due to the mountainous terrain. Anyhow a double attack on that front could be troublesome for the Soviets but either way with the Turks having 3 different open fronts and a lot of enemy troops on each of them that are better supplied and equipped I don't see it happening.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
This is interesting. And momentous. Essentially the Turkish decision makers have decided that they cannot take Smyrna/Izmir and are thus seeking resolution via victory in the wider war (throwing their weight against the USSR). Barring an unforeseen end of the wider war, this is the point were the security of Greek Ionia is probably assured. But we do not know how WW2 will end, and indeed how Turkish decision makers will manage a realization that the Nazis are going to lose.
I could see the war ending a few months sooner than OTL. With Greece holding out the Balkan front is still open and when additional UK and US aid arrives a counter offensive will likely be launched (and reclaim the rest of European Greece, maybe try to knock Bulgaria out of the war and reclaim as much of Yugoslavia as possible). Additionally Libya has fallen sooner and Tunisia could be occupied sooner, perhaps leading to an earlier Italian campaign, which could require Germany to send additional forces southwards - hastening its fall on either the Western and/or Eastern Fronts.
Maybe, but there are many things that can happen .For starters and if I am not wrong, Unconditional Surrender is not yet a official Allied doctrine in this timeline. Which opens many options for alternative outcomes.
Nah, after the fall of France and especially as the us enters the war is was already in everyones mind that the war won't end until Berlin has fallen. The US military industrial complex is kick-starting, they have zero reason to make peace and keep the current German government in place
Sure, though again I am referring in the timeline. I agree with your estimation of the writer's mind on this, but then again it might cover only Germany, and not the minor allies
At this point it is not making sense I think for the Turks to keep throwing resources at attempting to take Smyrna. The last offensive came just short of taking it but since their navy failed to cut it from reinforcements, and the Greeks just kept throwing in replacements only significant German aid can bring Smyrna down. Then with the Americans also in the war, the dynamics are much different. The only winning strategy for Turkey (and Germany) is knocking the Soviets out so they can concentrate their forces undivided against the Western powers. Smyrna is secondary before that...
For Germany this looks very much likely. But let me put the question differently. Of Germany's European allies how many had to surrender unconditionally?
I think if anything Turkey would be forced to unconditionally surrender too considering their position.
Why? There’s nothing that they can’t get in a normal surrender that they’d get in an unconditional one. Population exchanges, land transfers, and government overthrow are all still on the table in a conditioned surrender. They might be forced into one if they feel the Allies are demanding to much and therefore refuse to surrender. But the Allies gain nothing from forcing one for no real reason.
They have to at least lose Sivas I think, and it'd be an effective unconditional surrender in the minds of the Turks.
Simply the politics of ww2 would end up defining that it's an unconditional surround right on time or the allies or the Soviets breach your capital
Part 101
Sevastopol, July 1st, 1942
The fortress city finally fell to the German army. As soon as the news had reached Sivas a request had gone back for the siege artillery to be shipped ordered to finish off Smyrna. It would be declined politely but firmly. The massive siege guns like the 800mm "Dora" and the 600mm "Karl" mortar were needed to reduce Leningrad. Now as soon as Leningrad went down...
Toledo, Spain, July 6th, 1942
The Falangists, or the Nationalists, the name varied based on whom you asked, had reacted to the creation of the Spanish National Front between their former comrades under Ochoa and the former Loyalists, by attacking in Guadalajara in March in hopes of taking Madrid before their opponents could take advantage of their newly formed alliance. They had been beaten back with over 17,000 casualties in three weeks of fighting. Now it was the turn of the Spanish National Army to take the offensive and remove the threat to Madrid...
Rize, Turkey, July 7th, 1942
The Soviets army was pushed out of the small port and the town. All along the front the Turkish army and their German and Italian allies were advancing. But the advance was neither particularly fast, 23km had been taken in 10 days of fighting, nor cheap, casualties had already reached 16,000 men. But Soviet casualties were even heavier. The advance continued...
Eleutherias square, Thessaloniki, July 11th, 1942
The Bulgarian officer looked in some distaste at the spectacle before him. All the Jewish males between 16 and 60, had been rounded up by the RSHA with the aid of the Bulgarian gendarmerie and army in the square. There the nearly 9,000 men mostly teenagers and and middle aged ones, the cohorts between 20 and 35 were suspiciously scarce, their majority being with the Greek army in free Greece, had been abused for most of the day, several dying from the abused before being sent off into forced labour. Distasteful or not he couldn't do much about it. The royal government was protecting the Jews in Bulgaria proper. Nut in the annexed territories it had decided to cooperate with the Germans...
Patras, Greece, July 13th, 1942
The 12th Infantry Regiment, and the III Infantry Division to which it belonged had been stood down to reinforce other units battered by the German assault the previous year. Now it was activated again. But the new III Division was a different beast than the old one. Now it was the III Armoured Division, with the 12th, forming her infantry contingent and the 2nd Cavalry brigade the tank component. It would take months till enough tanks to fully equip the division were available, but months were needed to fully train it up as well...
Germany, July 18th, 1942
The prototype Messerschmitt Me 262, took to the air for the first time just on jet engines. It was true that this was well ahead of the British program. But the RLM and Messerschmitt had several much more mundane problems and serious problems. The Me 210 which had entered service with frontline units back in April was proving to be a disaster and Wever was already grumbling about ceasing production and replacing it. Me 309 the intended replacement of the older Bf 109 had made it's first flight together with Me 262. It had not impressed but it was perhaps to early to judge it. And the German advanced piston engines appeared to be going nowhere. Wever had already bitten the bullet and cancelled DB604 back in February. Now it looked as if its rival Jumo 222 should also be cancelled before even more resources were wasted on it.
Algiers, July 20th, 1942
The US 34th Infantry Division start disembarking, in the port, it would be carried by train to the Tunisian front to join up with the French Armee d'Afrique
Voronezh, July 24th, 1942
The last Soviet defenders were forced over the Don river. Nearly frour weeks of fighting had cost nearly 95,000 German casualties and nearly six times as many Soviet ones. The German army had also taken Rostov the previous day and Hitler with the Soviets apparently doing no better than the previous summer had ordered the reorganization of Army Group South into two Army Groups. Army Group A would advance southwards towards the Caucasus to capture the Soviet Oilfields and link up with the Turks who were advancing eastwards. Army Group B would advance to the Volga and cut off Soviet communications. If Franz Halder or anyone else in the OKW thought bad of splitting the German effort they failed to make any note of it. After all it was not the first time German armies were sent to take multiple objectives at the same time...
Washington D.C, July 28th, 1942
The plane carrying general Alexandros Papagos, landed in Washington. Papagos and a small staff, would represent Greece with the Allied combined chiefs of staff in Washington. His talents fitted him well for the role and both Dragoumis and Papagos felt it was necessary to have someone represent Greece in Allied military planning and protect her interest there. And of the major Greek field commander Papagos was the one Pangalos felt to be best suited for the role... and perhaps also the one he wanted to dispense with.
Caucasus, August 1st, 1942
The Turkish 3rd army crossed the Turkish-Soviet border. By now the Turkish offensives had developed into three distinct axes. The northernmost supplied from Trebizond, was advancing along the coast to threaten Batum. The main thrust in the centre, supplied by the Erzurum railroad threatened Kars. Further to the south-east where a Soviet thrust the previous year had aimed at lake Van a secondary Turkish attack had pushed the Soviets back only to find itself in front of mount Ararat. The Turks had instead shifted their attack towards the Iranian border in hopes of cutting off the railway from Tabriz to Nakhchevan. The Iranians had shifted forces from Tabriz to meet the threat but their logistics were highly problematic not least because neither Iran wanted to allow Soviet troops on its soil nor the Soviets Iranian troops on their soil...
Tunisia, August 4th, 1942
The British 8th army, six divisions, with 150,000 and a thousand tanks under general O'Connor attacked the Mareth line, just as the French Armee d' Afrique, reinforced by the British 44th and 51st Infantry Divisions and the US II Army corps with the 1st and 34th Infantry Divisions, another 181,000 men and 356 tanks attacked from the west. The Germans and Italians were well entrenched and with sufficient air support from airfields both in Tunisia and Sicily proper. But the had only 151,000 men and 578 tanks to face off the Allied assault...
The fortress city finally fell to the German army. As soon as the news had reached Sivas a request had gone back for the siege artillery to be shipped ordered to finish off Smyrna. It would be declined politely but firmly. The massive siege guns like the 800mm "Dora" and the 600mm "Karl" mortar were needed to reduce Leningrad. Now as soon as Leningrad went down...
Toledo, Spain, July 6th, 1942
The Falangists, or the Nationalists, the name varied based on whom you asked, had reacted to the creation of the Spanish National Front between their former comrades under Ochoa and the former Loyalists, by attacking in Guadalajara in March in hopes of taking Madrid before their opponents could take advantage of their newly formed alliance. They had been beaten back with over 17,000 casualties in three weeks of fighting. Now it was the turn of the Spanish National Army to take the offensive and remove the threat to Madrid...
Rize, Turkey, July 7th, 1942
The Soviets army was pushed out of the small port and the town. All along the front the Turkish army and their German and Italian allies were advancing. But the advance was neither particularly fast, 23km had been taken in 10 days of fighting, nor cheap, casualties had already reached 16,000 men. But Soviet casualties were even heavier. The advance continued...
Eleutherias square, Thessaloniki, July 11th, 1942
The Bulgarian officer looked in some distaste at the spectacle before him. All the Jewish males between 16 and 60, had been rounded up by the RSHA with the aid of the Bulgarian gendarmerie and army in the square. There the nearly 9,000 men mostly teenagers and and middle aged ones, the cohorts between 20 and 35 were suspiciously scarce, their majority being with the Greek army in free Greece, had been abused for most of the day, several dying from the abused before being sent off into forced labour. Distasteful or not he couldn't do much about it. The royal government was protecting the Jews in Bulgaria proper. Nut in the annexed territories it had decided to cooperate with the Germans...
Patras, Greece, July 13th, 1942
The 12th Infantry Regiment, and the III Infantry Division to which it belonged had been stood down to reinforce other units battered by the German assault the previous year. Now it was activated again. But the new III Division was a different beast than the old one. Now it was the III Armoured Division, with the 12th, forming her infantry contingent and the 2nd Cavalry brigade the tank component. It would take months till enough tanks to fully equip the division were available, but months were needed to fully train it up as well...
Germany, July 18th, 1942
The prototype Messerschmitt Me 262, took to the air for the first time just on jet engines. It was true that this was well ahead of the British program. But the RLM and Messerschmitt had several much more mundane problems and serious problems. The Me 210 which had entered service with frontline units back in April was proving to be a disaster and Wever was already grumbling about ceasing production and replacing it. Me 309 the intended replacement of the older Bf 109 had made it's first flight together with Me 262. It had not impressed but it was perhaps to early to judge it. And the German advanced piston engines appeared to be going nowhere. Wever had already bitten the bullet and cancelled DB604 back in February. Now it looked as if its rival Jumo 222 should also be cancelled before even more resources were wasted on it.
Algiers, July 20th, 1942
The US 34th Infantry Division start disembarking, in the port, it would be carried by train to the Tunisian front to join up with the French Armee d'Afrique
Voronezh, July 24th, 1942
The last Soviet defenders were forced over the Don river. Nearly frour weeks of fighting had cost nearly 95,000 German casualties and nearly six times as many Soviet ones. The German army had also taken Rostov the previous day and Hitler with the Soviets apparently doing no better than the previous summer had ordered the reorganization of Army Group South into two Army Groups. Army Group A would advance southwards towards the Caucasus to capture the Soviet Oilfields and link up with the Turks who were advancing eastwards. Army Group B would advance to the Volga and cut off Soviet communications. If Franz Halder or anyone else in the OKW thought bad of splitting the German effort they failed to make any note of it. After all it was not the first time German armies were sent to take multiple objectives at the same time...
Washington D.C, July 28th, 1942
The plane carrying general Alexandros Papagos, landed in Washington. Papagos and a small staff, would represent Greece with the Allied combined chiefs of staff in Washington. His talents fitted him well for the role and both Dragoumis and Papagos felt it was necessary to have someone represent Greece in Allied military planning and protect her interest there. And of the major Greek field commander Papagos was the one Pangalos felt to be best suited for the role... and perhaps also the one he wanted to dispense with.
Caucasus, August 1st, 1942
The Turkish 3rd army crossed the Turkish-Soviet border. By now the Turkish offensives had developed into three distinct axes. The northernmost supplied from Trebizond, was advancing along the coast to threaten Batum. The main thrust in the centre, supplied by the Erzurum railroad threatened Kars. Further to the south-east where a Soviet thrust the previous year had aimed at lake Van a secondary Turkish attack had pushed the Soviets back only to find itself in front of mount Ararat. The Turks had instead shifted their attack towards the Iranian border in hopes of cutting off the railway from Tabriz to Nakhchevan. The Iranians had shifted forces from Tabriz to meet the threat but their logistics were highly problematic not least because neither Iran wanted to allow Soviet troops on its soil nor the Soviets Iranian troops on their soil...
Tunisia, August 4th, 1942
The British 8th army, six divisions, with 150,000 and a thousand tanks under general O'Connor attacked the Mareth line, just as the French Armee d' Afrique, reinforced by the British 44th and 51st Infantry Divisions and the US II Army corps with the 1st and 34th Infantry Divisions, another 181,000 men and 356 tanks attacked from the west. The Germans and Italians were well entrenched and with sufficient air support from airfields both in Tunisia and Sicily proper. But the had only 151,000 men and 578 tanks to face off the Allied assault...
Ouch, a weaker southern group could mean a harsher Stalingrad for the Germans, unless the Germans manage to distract the Soviets elsewhere. But while Leningrad was a meaningfull city idealogically, Moscow was the logistics centre. The Germans are shooting themselves in the foot here unless the Turks by miracle manage to come close enough to Baku to threaten it.
Although perhaps ittl landlease for the Soviets could add more oil so Baku while devastating wouldn't be the end if the axis bleed themselves dry for it.
I do wonder what a Turkish/axis offensive of Azerbaijan is going to mean for future relations though. All in all, I feel like the Turks might have brought a good degree of unity for the Caucasus depending on how harsh they are.
Although perhaps ittl landlease for the Soviets could add more oil so Baku while devastating wouldn't be the end if the axis bleed themselves dry for it.
I do wonder what a Turkish/axis offensive of Azerbaijan is going to mean for future relations though. All in all, I feel like the Turks might have brought a good degree of unity for the Caucasus depending on how harsh they are.
Well if the azeris openly support the turks during the offensive things are not going to be good for the Soviets as they could lose the baku oil for a time...now after the war i expect some territorial changes in the ssr in the Caucasus..maybe Armenia and Georgia gain some land at the expense of Azerbaijan? And maybe Stalin could deport some lf the azeri population to central asia.. although I think the azeris wouldn't openly support the axis before any turks enter into Azerbaijan itself
The Eastern Front appears to continue with little divergence. Good that Greece is getting a seat at the table, albiet a small one. I can't wait to see how the first American units perform and what Patton's role will be. Rommel is good but we will see how good quite soon. I'm curious to see if the Allied Units in Iraq and Syria will continue to advance or not, could potentially play a major role in how successful the Axis Caucasus offensive. Or even an air campaign from Mosul could wreak havoc upon the Turkish logistics. The Iranians and the Soviets not coordinating is to be expected but disappointing, still as long as they keep the supply lines open, the very presence of Iranian troops will require some Turkish troops to be stationed across the border. As always great job and can't wait to see what's next
Tbf considering it originally only the US and Britain are there so Greece getting in there to influence policy is much better than otl.
Oh for sure, and including the rest of the Allies in some grand strategy will hopefully led to better or at least more informed decisions. I was just saying that not everyone has the same seat at the table.
Tbf at least for Greece the borders in the ME will be the de facto borders of the Soviet and WAllies armies it's more how much land Greece is granted and how much goes to the puppet, and I highly doubt that the Soviets could get to western Anatolia.