If its only additional support I'd think it'd at most save Hainan and no more, as the Nationalists kind of lost most of their army in battle at that point and they were more concerned about getting to safety. Hainan defo could've survived as part of the ROC if they gave more attention to it, which the American supplies should do, as the army there was under-equipped and would've benefited from the supplies.
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles
- Thread starter Lascaris
- Start date
I'm short of inclined to believe the outcome of the Chinese civil war was mostly determing by late 1945 - early 1946 events not least the rush for Mancuria but we are still a fair bit from that at the moment...
Part 162
Athens, December 3rd, 1944
Themistoklis Sofoulis second term as president of Greece came to an end. Unlike parliament extending it was neither possible nor necessary, the president was elected by a two thirds majority of a joint session of the parliament and the senate. But this brought forth the question of Sofoulis successor. Sofoulis was a Liberal and despite his age, he was already 84 was the preferred candidate of the Liberals. But the prospect of electing yet again a Liberal to the presidency had caused a near revolt to the MPs and senators of Dragoumis National Radical and Stratos Conservative Reform parties, the so called "United Opposition". The Venizelists were dominating Greek politics since 1917, all the more so since the royalist coup of 1923 and the proclamation of the republic in 1924. And while the tensions of the National Schism had gradually subsided at least to an extend, they were always present underneath the surface. The breakthrough of the right in the 1939 elections, after its landslide defeats in 1932 and 1936 elections had been shortly followed by the war and the union sacree of all parties, so the conservatives had once more been forced to accept the Venizelist domination of the armed forces and public service. But now the war, may not be over but was certainly well beyond the borders of Greece. Which was a good thing but also meant the united front of all Greek political parties, even the Communists after June 1941, was now fracturing.
Dragoumis and Stratos under the pressure of their voters base would refuse to support Sofoulis instead putting forth Ioannis Rallis as their candidate for president. On the first vote Rallis would win a majority with 191 votes to 169 for Sofoulis but this would be 56 seats short of the two thirds majority to elect him president. On the second vote Stratos would make a deal with his former Venizelist friends in the Liberal Party and put forward prime minister Aristeides Stergiadis as a candidate for the presidency. Rallis would drop down to 108 votes and Stergiadis come first with 227 votes, still sort of the needed two thirds majority, with Sofoulis by now supported only by George Papandreou's Democratic Agrarian party getting 25 votes. On the third vote Papandreou, despite his dislike for Stergiadis would fall behind him and Stergiadis would be elected the fourth president of the republic with 253 votes.
Hungary, December 3rd, 1944
The Soviet 2nd Ukrainian Front captured the twon of Miscolc. The Soviet westward advance continued with the 3rd Ukrainian Front taking Szigetvar two days later despite the German efforts to hold them back.
Athens, December 5th, 1944
Theodore Pangalos was promoted to field marshal, only the second in Greece history since king Constantine a generation before. But the promotion would also mark the end of his career in uniform as three days later the field marshal would resign from his position at the head of the Greek army after nearly half a century of service. General Ptolemaios Sarigiannis, the commander of the Greek 1st Army would be promoted to Greek army chief of staff with Alexandros Papagos, moved from commander of the Army of Asia Minor to command of the 1st Army.
Yugoslavia, December 5th, 1944
The Yugoslav People's Army, supported by elements of the Soviet 3rd Ukrainian Front liberated Vukovar. To the People's Army left, the British 10th army, the Greek 1st Army and the Royal Yugoslav army were also pushing westwards against the Germans and Croatians.
Athens, December 9th, 1944
The seventytwo year old Nikolaos Stratos became for the second time since 1928 the prime minister of Greece leading a coalition government with the Liberal party, with George Kafandaris as vice president, Sofoklis Venizelos as minister of foreign affairs, the just retired Theodore Pangalos becoming the minister of war and retired admiral Georgios Stratos a cousin of the new prime minister remaining as minister of the navy. Stratos had gotten his price for allying with the Liberals over the presidential election. Two weeks later George Papandreou would get his own price when the electoral law for electing member of Parliament would be altered from first past the post to proportional representation. It was true that proposals to change the electoral law were not new, the law had almost been changed back in 1932. But is was highly doubtful that the law would had been changed if Papandreou could not leverage his support for the presidency or for that matterdid not fear his prospects in the next election under first past the post...
Stockholm, December 10th, 1944
It had been hoped that Nobel prizes would be given this year, the first time since 1939. But with Sweden now part of the war such hopes would be dashed. Resumption of Nobel prize awarding would have to wait to the end of the war.
Italy, December 11th, 1944
Padova was liberated by the British 8th Army with the Germans pulling back behind the Brenta river to its east. The Allied advance slowly continued hampered by increasingly bad weather and the shorter front.
Ardennes, December 16th, 1944
Over four hundred thousand German soldiers supported by more than 1,200 tanks and assault guns in thirteen infantry and seven Panzer divisions went to the attack. If all went well for the Germans they would hopefully catch the Allies off guard once more, cross the Meuse and capture Antwerp. This in turn would hopefully give Germany enough of a breathing space to stabilize the front in the East as well and put into mass production advanced weaponry that would allow it to cancel out the Allied numerical superiority. Or at least that what Hitler believed. Model and von Rundstedt in command of the German forces in the west while in agreement with his logic feared that capturing Antwerp would prove too ambitious. Still they had considered a more limited offensive to reach the Meuse advisable instead of staying solely on the defensive. And thus Germany once more would throw everything in a single roll of the dice hoping everything would go for the best, as they were doing since the days of Frederick the Great.
Bastogne, December 20th, 1944
Elements of three US Army divisions, the majority of them belonging to the 82nd Airborne Division were encircled by advancing German forces. But over the next six days the Americans would beat back all German attempts to destroy their pocket.
Vietnam, December 22nd, 1944
Vo Nguyen Giap had start life studying law in the university of Hanoi and being a teacher. But now he took a different task as at the instructions of Ho Chi Minh begun organizing the first unit of what was to become the People's Army of Vietnam.
Philippines, December 26th, 1944
Leyte island was liberated by the US 6th Army. The handful of surviving Japanese, out of an initial force of over 70,000 men defending Leyte 65,000 had been killed, would continue waging a guerilla campaign for the next three months before being completely eliminated.
Italy, December 26th, 1944
The German 14th army would launch a limited offensive trying to arrest the advance of the US 5th Army. But the Germans would be driven back in three days of fighting in the face of overwhelming Allied superiority. On December 29th Verona would be liberated by the US 92nd Infantry Division.
Hungary, December 29th, 1944
Soviet and Romanian forces reached the outskirts of Budapest, encircling the Hungarian capital. But the German and Hungarian troops inside the city would fight on for several weeks before being finally forced to surrender.
Themistoklis Sofoulis second term as president of Greece came to an end. Unlike parliament extending it was neither possible nor necessary, the president was elected by a two thirds majority of a joint session of the parliament and the senate. But this brought forth the question of Sofoulis successor. Sofoulis was a Liberal and despite his age, he was already 84 was the preferred candidate of the Liberals. But the prospect of electing yet again a Liberal to the presidency had caused a near revolt to the MPs and senators of Dragoumis National Radical and Stratos Conservative Reform parties, the so called "United Opposition". The Venizelists were dominating Greek politics since 1917, all the more so since the royalist coup of 1923 and the proclamation of the republic in 1924. And while the tensions of the National Schism had gradually subsided at least to an extend, they were always present underneath the surface. The breakthrough of the right in the 1939 elections, after its landslide defeats in 1932 and 1936 elections had been shortly followed by the war and the union sacree of all parties, so the conservatives had once more been forced to accept the Venizelist domination of the armed forces and public service. But now the war, may not be over but was certainly well beyond the borders of Greece. Which was a good thing but also meant the united front of all Greek political parties, even the Communists after June 1941, was now fracturing.
Dragoumis and Stratos under the pressure of their voters base would refuse to support Sofoulis instead putting forth Ioannis Rallis as their candidate for president. On the first vote Rallis would win a majority with 191 votes to 169 for Sofoulis but this would be 56 seats short of the two thirds majority to elect him president. On the second vote Stratos would make a deal with his former Venizelist friends in the Liberal Party and put forward prime minister Aristeides Stergiadis as a candidate for the presidency. Rallis would drop down to 108 votes and Stergiadis come first with 227 votes, still sort of the needed two thirds majority, with Sofoulis by now supported only by George Papandreou's Democratic Agrarian party getting 25 votes. On the third vote Papandreou, despite his dislike for Stergiadis would fall behind him and Stergiadis would be elected the fourth president of the republic with 253 votes.
Hungary, December 3rd, 1944
The Soviet 2nd Ukrainian Front captured the twon of Miscolc. The Soviet westward advance continued with the 3rd Ukrainian Front taking Szigetvar two days later despite the German efforts to hold them back.
Athens, December 5th, 1944
Theodore Pangalos was promoted to field marshal, only the second in Greece history since king Constantine a generation before. But the promotion would also mark the end of his career in uniform as three days later the field marshal would resign from his position at the head of the Greek army after nearly half a century of service. General Ptolemaios Sarigiannis, the commander of the Greek 1st Army would be promoted to Greek army chief of staff with Alexandros Papagos, moved from commander of the Army of Asia Minor to command of the 1st Army.
Yugoslavia, December 5th, 1944
The Yugoslav People's Army, supported by elements of the Soviet 3rd Ukrainian Front liberated Vukovar. To the People's Army left, the British 10th army, the Greek 1st Army and the Royal Yugoslav army were also pushing westwards against the Germans and Croatians.
Athens, December 9th, 1944
The seventytwo year old Nikolaos Stratos became for the second time since 1928 the prime minister of Greece leading a coalition government with the Liberal party, with George Kafandaris as vice president, Sofoklis Venizelos as minister of foreign affairs, the just retired Theodore Pangalos becoming the minister of war and retired admiral Georgios Stratos a cousin of the new prime minister remaining as minister of the navy. Stratos had gotten his price for allying with the Liberals over the presidential election. Two weeks later George Papandreou would get his own price when the electoral law for electing member of Parliament would be altered from first past the post to proportional representation. It was true that proposals to change the electoral law were not new, the law had almost been changed back in 1932. But is was highly doubtful that the law would had been changed if Papandreou could not leverage his support for the presidency or for that matterdid not fear his prospects in the next election under first past the post...
Stockholm, December 10th, 1944
It had been hoped that Nobel prizes would be given this year, the first time since 1939. But with Sweden now part of the war such hopes would be dashed. Resumption of Nobel prize awarding would have to wait to the end of the war.
Italy, December 11th, 1944
Padova was liberated by the British 8th Army with the Germans pulling back behind the Brenta river to its east. The Allied advance slowly continued hampered by increasingly bad weather and the shorter front.
Ardennes, December 16th, 1944
Over four hundred thousand German soldiers supported by more than 1,200 tanks and assault guns in thirteen infantry and seven Panzer divisions went to the attack. If all went well for the Germans they would hopefully catch the Allies off guard once more, cross the Meuse and capture Antwerp. This in turn would hopefully give Germany enough of a breathing space to stabilize the front in the East as well and put into mass production advanced weaponry that would allow it to cancel out the Allied numerical superiority. Or at least that what Hitler believed. Model and von Rundstedt in command of the German forces in the west while in agreement with his logic feared that capturing Antwerp would prove too ambitious. Still they had considered a more limited offensive to reach the Meuse advisable instead of staying solely on the defensive. And thus Germany once more would throw everything in a single roll of the dice hoping everything would go for the best, as they were doing since the days of Frederick the Great.
Bastogne, December 20th, 1944
Elements of three US Army divisions, the majority of them belonging to the 82nd Airborne Division were encircled by advancing German forces. But over the next six days the Americans would beat back all German attempts to destroy their pocket.
Vietnam, December 22nd, 1944
Vo Nguyen Giap had start life studying law in the university of Hanoi and being a teacher. But now he took a different task as at the instructions of Ho Chi Minh begun organizing the first unit of what was to become the People's Army of Vietnam.
Philippines, December 26th, 1944
Leyte island was liberated by the US 6th Army. The handful of surviving Japanese, out of an initial force of over 70,000 men defending Leyte 65,000 had been killed, would continue waging a guerilla campaign for the next three months before being completely eliminated.
Italy, December 26th, 1944
The German 14th army would launch a limited offensive trying to arrest the advance of the US 5th Army. But the Germans would be driven back in three days of fighting in the face of overwhelming Allied superiority. On December 29th Verona would be liberated by the US 92nd Infantry Division.
Hungary, December 29th, 1944
Soviet and Romanian forces reached the outskirts of Budapest, encircling the Hungarian capital. But the German and Hungarian troops inside the city would fight on for several weeks before being finally forced to surrender.
With that in mind, what happened to the other two Collaborationist PMs in our world here, considering Rallis was the third and last Collab PM IOTL?
It seems like Hungary will fall to the USSR, so things are going as per otl...
I do wonder how that would affect Austria though. With the WAllies at Verona they'll go closer and closer to Austria, and they may be able to send troops earlier than the soviets did, with the stipulation that it prob means that Austria probably still is going neutral bc the Americans doing this alone would probably mean that the Germans focus on them first and the Soviets would probably take advantage.
I think if we get a Western Austria it probably would happen bc the Soviets tried to coup it as the Americans feared in otl.
I do wonder how that would affect Austria though. With the WAllies at Verona they'll go closer and closer to Austria, and they may be able to send troops earlier than the soviets did, with the stipulation that it prob means that Austria probably still is going neutral bc the Americans doing this alone would probably mean that the Germans focus on them first and the Soviets would probably take advantage.
I think if we get a Western Austria it probably would happen bc the Soviets tried to coup it as the Americans feared in otl.
Because he wanted to join politics and be a government minister, i guess.
I wonder what the Greek military industry in general is looking like nowadays? We've seen the intended replacement for their service rifle but what about the aviation/armoured vehicle/naval industries? Are there any new indigenous designs being floated around for next generation of tanks, planes, and ships etc?
Well the Soviets are on the other side of the Danube. The situation in Yugoslavia is gonna be ridiculously messy post war. That immediate civil war feels more and more likely.
So now the UK and Greece both have proportional representation correct? Am I missing anybody else? I’m assuming it’s going to be a more popular government form ITTL? I can’t help but thing that’s a good change overall.
So the Red Cross doesn’t get a second peace prize. Can’t imagine that changes much but it makes sense not to award it with Sweden not being at peace
So with Verona and Padova being liberated is the Brenta more or less the line up to around Trento? Or is Vicenza still a Nazi stronghold on the other side of the river?
How long “several weeks” is likely determines which camp Austria belongs the ITTL. I’m very interested to see what may happen with that.
Beyond all of that the Battle of the Bulge is effectively the same except the Germans are in an even more dire position than OTL and can afford the loses even less.
So it seems, and perhaps, it may lead to a two Koreas like situation for the post-war Yugoslavia...
And Stergiadis is keep rising! What an illustrious he had!
That's very interesting! It will lead to coalition governments in the post-war era. The parties have already shown they can work together and it will do wonders for the country's stability.
To get promoted to minister of war?
Tsolakoglou got retired from the army due to health problems, Logothetopoulos was a gynecologist, one of the best Greek doctors of his time. But he had studied in Germany and his wife was German, and apparently was personally a nazi. So probably got eased out of his position and is in house arrest, not unlike Mosley in Britain.
Well there is that little thing known as the Julian Alps on their way to Austria of course...
That. The war is as good as won at this point and Pangalos is 66 years old and ambitious. He stayed in the army TTL given how Venizelos was dominating Greek politics without interruption. If he is to achieve his ambitions of governing Greece he can't be still in the army in the coming elections...
OTL Romania and Australia are I think a good model here, with Australia likely being the closer one, although overall Greek industrial capacity is about half that of Australia. In the air Ierax the Greek version of OTL PZL 55 has gone through multiple iterations
1940: Ierax I, Merlin III 1,030hp engine, 570 kph
late 1941: Ierax II, Merlin 45 1,300hp engine, 615 kph
late 1942: Ierax III, Merlin 61 1565hp engine, 655 kph
late 1943: Ierax IV, Griffon 61 2,035hp engine, 715 kph
1945: ierax V, Griffon 83 2340hp engine, 749kph
Now Ierax V may or may not see combat given how the war goes and is about as close to the original as a Spiteful was to an original Spitfire...
Britain has alternative voting rather.
Or gets retired, couts on how you view the presidency...
That is one way to view it...
Retired is a far better description , given that the Greek President is something akin to a nice looking potted plant...
I think Greek politics will be tulmutous. With the Dragoumis administration and the common war effort wiping the shame of 1916-1924 for the ex-Royalists, they are likely to demand a redistribution of the political pie dominated by the Liberals. They already got some, they are likely to want more (relative deprivation theory).
Greece is doing really good when it comes to planes. Do they have the same capabilities on ground vehicles?
I think that they have a series of tanks ittl, though I don't know if they are the standard in place of British or American tanks. Do they manufacture their own trucks and logistics vehicles, or any tank destroyers and self propelled guns? (even in prototype form)
I think that they have a series of tanks ittl, though I don't know if they are the standard in place of British or American tanks. Do they manufacture their own trucks and logistics vehicles, or any tank destroyers and self propelled guns? (even in prototype form)
I think at the moment the Greeks are making some version of the centaur tank although I’m not sure if that got changed at some point. And I’m pretty sure they have some domestic truck production.
It's... team of Polish designers certainly do. After all both Zygmund Pulawski (who did not die in an aircraft accident TTL) and Jerzy Dabrowski are working in Greece at the moment, Greece was the only allied country license building Polish designs when Poland fell in TTL. But otherwise I'd think the Greeks are within the bounds of possibility here. They had a small but reasonably well working aircraft industry even in OTL, start with a reasonably good basic aircraft in PZL 55 not unlike the Romanians and IAR 80 but unlike Romania they are in the right side of history so they can access engines of ever increasing power, Griffon 81 in the final Ierax variant has ~230% the power of the original. Plus of course technical information, Ierax V has frex a laminar flow wing, and ever importantly machine tools.
To quote from part 134.
Now if you think that Leon Mk1 and Mk2 sound surprisingly similar to the Canadian Ram tanks or for that matter the Australian Sentinel tank with Leon Mk3 being pretty similar to AC4, aside from the Bofors derived 75mm gun... why that is not at all accidental as I had the Greeks using the same solution to the same problem they had with the Canadians and Australians.
As for trucks they were locally building Ford models back in 1940. By 1945 I short of suspect they are concentrating more on tanks. American industry is providing floods of tracks and utility vehicles. But there were relative shortages in the deliveries of Sherman tanks to the European theater of operations so from thhe Greek point of view tank production is of more use. Not any different from what the Soviets were doing actually...
That's a reasonable assumption even just on grounds of the track record proportional representation tends to have I would think.