What's the CSA's National Anthem?

  • Dixie

    Votes: 39 48.1%
  • God Save the South

    Votes: 31 38.3%
  • The Bonnie Blue

    Votes: 11 13.6%

  • Total voters
    81
  • Poll closed .

dcharles

Banned
So they drove even Frederick Douglas out......

If Frederick Douglass was driven out of the North ITTL then

Also Poor Douglas, the North did you so dirty man…

The Frederick Douglass section of this chapter…man, that’s some powerful, very depressing stuff.


I'm glad everyone seemed to enjoy that section.

Just to be clear, and this is my fault for not making it clear in the first place, but Douglass is leaving of his own power. He's not being chased away. He's just disgusted.

It's shortly after Seymour was elected to his own full term, if that helps explain it in context.
 
Just to be clear, and this is my fault for not making it clear in the first place, but Douglass is leaving of his own power. He's not being chased away. He's just disgusted.
And the quesiton on where he's going? Canada? The UK? Liberia?
Got it. We do need a glimpse at African-Americans at some point my good fellow.
On that note, I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few Northern Blacks go to Liberia ITTL in response to the North's racism and all that.
 

Deleted member 191087

My good fellows
I do not think WW2 is butterflied away. Instead I think the rest of World History goes as OTL (imho the best alternative history does not make huge changes, instead it accentuates trends that were already there historically).

Here is what I see happening
The New South gets broken on some stupid adventure in Central America. There is a incentive to make sure Mexico is either a) as racist as the USA or b) unable to police its border with the CSA so that slave patrols can operate with impunity to make escape to Mexico a hard option for slaves.

The collapse of the New South leads to its most populist elements to seek a Balck-White radical alliance (you had such dynamics OTL in Georgia imho). This will fail due to the power of racism and out of the upheaval I see a Estado Nuovo style regime in the CSA (remember the historical Estado Nuovo lasted into the 1970s).

The USA will be supportive of such a regime because a) its increasing engagement in the Pacific and Atlantic necessitate a quite southern flank b) racism and especially an interest in cutting down the amount of slaves escaping North (illegal immigrants)

The USA as in OTL engages in both WW1 and WW2.

Cold War as OTL. The USA tolerates or supports CSA intervention in Africa as an anti-communist measure. The CSA intervenes to a) support white minority states (Rhodesia, S.Africa) b) to seek to prop up friendly African states as propaganda tools (When African states recongize our need for our peculiar institution who are you to judge us). I can even see it setting up some kind of apprentiship (De-facto slavery) program with friendly African states.

The experience of the Vietnam War leads to a US movement that challenges the racist consensus. CSA adventures in Africa take their toll in the economy.

The USA amends the constitution permitting African emigration (The "No more, not anymore" speech of the US President). The CSA economy collapses.
Like the GDR the CSA goverment tries to stay in power but collapses. Slavery is abolished. The CSA enters a difficult period of economic, social and political transformation.
Well since you mentioned the idea that this timelines Confederacy would probably try to help out white minority states in Africa in the Cold War, do you think we’ll soon see The CSA try help out the Boers in The First Boer War in this tl?
 
And the quesiton on where he's going? Canada? The UK? Liberia?

On that note, I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few Northern Blacks go to Liberia ITTL in response to the North's racism and all that.

Yeah Liberia has always been an interesting point for atl history that I rarely get to see used. The whole place was founded as a place to relocate freed slaves by an independent abolitionist society and only went independent because the society went bankrupt and the government refused to buy them out. I could easily see this Union reviving Back to Africa to handle escaped slaves in a way that gets them out of the country while also not returning them to slavery. Hell the South might encourage it to get rid of the black freed men that were around in the South.
 
IIRC, the cotton-mill was considered the solution to the 'poor white' problem, even in the antebellum South.
 
Well since you mentioned the idea that this timelines Confederacy would probably try to help out white minority states in Africa in the Cold War, do you think we’ll soon see The CSA try help out the Boers in The First Boer War in this tl?
Nope. Imho they will not antagonize the UK.
 
I was thinking about the Liberia idea mentioned in the thread and I cannot see it making sense for CSA still committed to maintaining slavery. Such a big free Confederate-African population can only arise due to manumission on a big scale. And the slavecracy knew even before the Civil War that manumission is as a big threat to slavery as runways. Most slaveocracy dominated states had made manumission impossible exactly for this reason. Instead I think the colonization project will be a tool used by the USA to manage runaway flows. I can see more anti-CSA USA administrations preferring to dump runaways in Liberia rather then deporting them back to the CSA, wile more pro-CSA USA administrations preferring deportation back to the CSA, so it will ebb and flow but might become the preferred option as time passes. The evil genius of this is that it will still likely depress the number of runaways because many will not want to risk it if the result is deportation to a far away and alien place.
I think the tipping point is when the brookahs come to the conclusion that the only way to bring down the slavocracy in the CSA is to undermine the institution. It is then that we will see border state governments start doing things like making manumission easier, and it is then that I expect the underground railroad to become truly massive. And it is then that we will have a serious constitutional crisis in the CSA as the deep south states will try to use CSA federal power to stop border states from doing that. And it is then that we will have the same with the USA. Abolitionism will turn to a point of opposing deportation to Liberia, because that undermines the effect of border state manumission. That is the point of infection. If you get easier manumission in the Upper South + USA permission of free states and runaways to stay in its territory, slavery is dead. Except if the Lower South makes the intra-CSA border a hard border. This is why I cannot see how you avoid a Estado Nuovo style authoritarian regime in the CSA down the path. The Deep South needs to control the ability of Border States to end slavery in their own jurisdiction due to the possible domino effect. They need a slavery accommodating USA, they need states not being able to make manumission easy, and they need hard borders with Mexico and the USA.

And mind you this does not require some moral change among racially prejudiced whites. They will just come to their own conclusion that it is in their interest to smash slavery as an institution. The slavocracy knows it cannot survive if border states do not participate any more in propping up the system. Hell you do not even need runaways. Just abolitionist societies buying large amounts of slaves, moving them to a border state and then manumissioning them. Still though a lot depends on what those borders states do with the freed now Confederate-Africans and what the USA does.

An interesting question is the role of the Mississipi here. Depending on the regime of internationalization, if i.e it prohibits search and seizure of boats while they are not in port, it will become the main route of the underground railroad.
So the political economy of slavery points to its downfall. If brookahs want to break the planter elite they have to break slavery. Breaking slavery can take two forms, assisting runaways + making manumission easier. But both these require a sympathetic USA that does not enforce deportation (either back to the CSA or to Liberia). There is no way the lower south lets the upper south put the institution on its death path there. States rights be damned...and you all know what that will mean.
That is the dangerous alliance for the CSA elite structure : white brookahs determined to break the planter elite + slaves seeking freedom + northern abolitionists determined to change USA policy. The moment the USA decides to stop propping slavery in the name of racism is the moment planter elites will see the writing in the wall.
 
Last edited:
If the US gov't gets interested in settling escaped slaves, they might not be sent to Liberia. During the OTL civil war, Lincoln looked into resettling freedmen in Haiti and Central America. Perhaps if Washington does annex the Dominican Republic, then Santo Domingo might be a tempting location to resettle slaves.
 
Sure. And there is one use the CSA could have as a extra-terrirorial colony. As a hellish punishment camp for captured or deported runaways. We catch you or the USA deports you and we send you to die over there.
 
Jackson turning into a religious hermit seems on-brand for him. Though the outsize number of high-ranking Catholics in the CS is going to have an outsize cultural impact on the two Americas (wouldn't shock me if another wave of Know-Nothingism burns through the US). Out of curiosity, do you know if Cleburne was a Catholic or a Protestant?

Hints of Golden Circle-esque misadventures in the New South Party's future. Given their broad appeal, I don't think their opponents have much future without severe gerrymandering or property restrictions on voting rights (might even lead to peculiar circumstances where state laws on property for voting end up making slave ownership de facto a necessary step on the way to voting rights!).
 
Jackson turning into a religious hermit seems on-brand for him. Though the outsize number of high-ranking Catholics in the CS is going to have an outsize cultural impact on the two Americas (wouldn't shock me if another wave of Know-Nothingism burns through the US). Out of curiosity, do you know if Cleburne was a Catholic or a Protestant?

Hints of Golden Circle-esque misadventures in the New South Party's future. Given their broad appeal, I don't think their opponents have much future without severe gerrymandering or property restrictions on voting rights (might even lead to peculiar circumstances where state laws on property for voting end up making slave ownership de facto a necessary step on the way to voting rights!).
I believe Cleburne was a Protestant of Irish ancestry if I recall correctly. I remember looking it up one time and that's what I believe to have found.
 
Jackson turning into a religious hermit seems on-brand for him. Though the outsize number of high-ranking Catholics in the CS is going to have an outsize cultural impact on the two Americas (wouldn't shock me if another wave of Know-Nothingism burns through the US). Out of curiosity, do you know if Cleburne was a Catholic or a Protestant?

Hints of Golden Circle-esque misadventures in the New South Party's future. Given their broad appeal, I don't think their opponents have much future without severe gerrymandering or property restrictions on voting rights (might even lead to peculiar circumstances where state laws on property for voting end up making slave ownership de facto a necessary step on the way to voting rights!).
Totally. It is folly to think that once voting rights are given they cannot be taken back. It is not easy but we have examples (i.e either Bremen or Nuremburg, I do not remember which, restricted the suffrage in 1910 , warrant is in Ziblatt "Conservative Parties and the Rise of Democracy").
 
Totally. It is folly to think that once voting rights are given they cannot be taken back. It is not easy but we have examples (i.e either Bremen or Nuremburg, I do not remember which, restricted the suffrage in 1910 , warrant is in Ziblatt "Conservative Parties and the Rise of Democracy").

Even happened in the OTL United States. The Bourbon Democrats in the 1890s.
 
Top