NASA's Waterloo: A Realistic Mission to Mars Post Apollo

Let not turn this tl into a flame war about him

"Him?" Oh it may not be clear but "I" have suggested that "option" several times.
(And I think found a plausible way to have "Mac-the-knife" be the instigator no less :) )

And lets face it, for or against "Voyage" who didn't like the Orion presentation? :)

Randy
 
Given the limitations of the Russian system, an obvious move would be for them to send a couple of cargo modules to the moon. Hook them together and you have a "presence". One cosmonaut stays on the surface, if things are intact, the other goes home. Plan a swap out mission with a large margin of safety, send another module or two. You can even simply retrieve the cosmonaut - the "LEM" is still there. If you have a 3 person spacecraft, he can use the "LEM" to rendezvous with the module. Once you have the Soviet flag flying on a "base" even if not occupied full time, the US will have no choice but to respond.
 
The LK complex was total minimum approach for Lunar landing
One Cosmonaut down for around 6 hours to do its science exploration on foot - to compare Apollo LM up 72 hours with two astronauts and rover for 16 km exploration drive
They study to put second cosmonaut into LK lander but that had brought another problems: to put three astronauts into LOK or keep LOK empty in Lunar orbit what make rendezvous extrem complicated.

in End they abandon the LK-complex studies and took L3M Complex, a far larger Space Craft that bring 3 cosmonauts to Moon and was more of Temporary outpost as Lander.
you see in background of LK lander the Mockup of L3M, but that needed a modified N1 rocket with Hydrolox upper stages or dual N1 launch.
lklekr9.jpg
 
Err... What mineral resources are worth millions of dollars an ounce? Because that's the kind of price it would take to make shipping them to Earth worthwhile. At least assuming expendible rockets. Which, since the intro has a Saturn variant lifting the Mars mission, is still happening at that point. No?
Once you get on the moon (or better, a moon base), shipping minerals back is cheap as all hell. Even more so then getting things into LEO.
 
Once you get on the moon (or better, a moon base), shipping minerals back is cheap as all hell. Even more so then getting things into LEO.

It's only 'cheap' if you can manufacture fuel and re-entry vehicles on the moon.

Which is also cheaper than on Earth due to the low gravity.

Eh, no not actually. You have to bring everything first and that's massively expensive. Once you do so it arguably become "cheap" to ship the materials around Cis-Lunar space but not so much down to Earth. This is due to the cost of shipping things up the gravity well from Earth's surface but the cost of resources back on Earth will always be cheaper due to the vastly cheaper (and deeper) extraction and transportation system infrastructure on Earth. That was always the main advantage to Lunar materials for things like Space Colonies or space-based infrastructure. It was cheaper (and easier done right) to ship materials downhill from the Moon to Low Earth Orbit than lift them uphill from Earth but you had to pay more up-front to gain access to those materials.

Well, or some sort of mass driver. In either case the infrastructure that needs to be lifted before you can do much is huge.

Exactly. Even rather straight forward materials extraction (say LOX, aluminium, or water) takes a lot of shipped in equipment, and with 1970s tech people, to extract, pack and ship. Even with solar furnaces and solar powered mass drivers on the surface you need to process a LOT of material to get the resources and then ship them. And a lot of people which wasn't a bad point at all :) But still today, even if we found a deposit of easily extracted, processed rare-earth minerals on the Moon it is questionable if they'd be economic to ship back to Earth for use.

Space Colonization assumed that since we were up there anyway, using ISRU was more cost effective. Which it is but if you are limited (in time/money/people) then it only makes such sense in a local usage point-of-view and if the resources are fairly easy to extract and process.

Randy
 
Eh, no not actually. You have to bring everything first and that's massively expensive. Once you do so it arguably become "cheap" to ship the materials around Cis-Lunar space but not so much down to Earth. This is due to the cost of shipping things up the gravity well from Earth's surface but the cost of resources back on Earth will always be cheaper due to the vastly cheaper (and deeper) extraction and transportation system infrastructure on Earth. That was always the main advantage to Lunar materials for things like Space Colonies or space-based infrastructure. It was cheaper (and easier done right) to ship materials downhill from the Moon to Low Earth Orbit than lift them uphill from Earth but you had to pay more up-front to gain access to those materials.



Exactly. Even rather straight forward materials extraction (say LOX, aluminium, or water) takes a lot of shipped in equipment, and with 1970s tech people, to extract, pack and ship. Even with solar furnaces and solar powered mass drivers on the surface you need to process a LOT of material to get the resources and then ship them. And a lot of people which wasn't a bad point at all :) But still today, even if we found a deposit of easily extracted, processed rare-earth minerals on the Moon it is questionable if they'd be economic to ship back to Earth for use.

Space Colonization assumed that since we were up there anyway, using ISRU was more cost effective. Which it is but if you are limited (in time/money/people) then it only makes such sense in a local usage point-of-view and if the resources are fairly easy to extract and process.

Randy
Also ONeil and friends were talking massive reusable Earth--LEO rockets to get that infrastructure up. Heck, the L5 colony itself was PART of that infrastructure.
So, if you can generate multiple billions of dollars a year in electricity sales with SPSs made from lunar material, then with that kind of infrastructure in place, shipping high value goods back to Earth on what would otherwise be empty cargo vessels returning, might well be economic. But with Saturn V based tech? Nope. No way.
 
Well, or some sort of mass driver. In either case the infrastructure that needs to be lifted before you can do much is huge.

Even if you do manage to build a mass-driver to launch cargoes from the Lunar surface, you're still going to want the capacity for your shipments to make mid-course corrections, which means fuel. Furthermore, most (all?) readily storeable fuels for this purpose contain carbon and/or nitrogen, both of which are in notably short supply on the moon. Hydrogen is of course an option, but long-term storage is an issue.
 
Part I Chapter 9
Part I Chapter 9:

Only those who dare to fail greatly, can ever achieve greatly

-Robert F Kennedy, 37th President of the United States


Before the crew of Apollo 11 had even returned to Earth, NASA planners were trying to figure out what to do post Apollo that could live up to the spirit expressed in Kennedy’s speech. Obviously, the ideas the president had expressed had not caught NASA off guard, they had been instructed to come up with plans months ago, but the publicity brought by the Apollo 11 mission had brought the question of America’s future in space into the public eye, and so the mood became more urgent. Generally, the planners fell into three groups, though there was plenty of overlap.


Group One advocated for further lunar development. They argued that the Saturn V and Apollo system lent itself to more to upgrades than the N1 Herakles and the Soviet systems. The planners envisioned flying the initial run of Apollo mission, through Apollo 20. The last four missions would be the extended H class missions, staying for three days, with the addition of the Lunar Roving Vehicle. Perhaps the Apollo 19 or 20 missions could travel to the lunar poles and/or far side to achieve a first. After the initial missions were complete, the Saturn V would be upgraded, likely simple changes, like switching to the more advanced F-1A and J-2S engines. The CSM and LM would be upgraded to support longer term stays. An unmanned Saturn V launch would place a habitat on the Moon, capable of supporting multiple multi month stays by a two or three man crew. This would lead to permanently occupied lunar base, perhaps accompanied by a lunar orbiting space station, some time around 1980.


Group Two pushed instead for the development of an Earth Orbit space station, and a reusable “Space Shuttle” to carry crew and cargo to it. They argued that a huge station could be launched by one or two Saturn V’s, perhaps a descendant of the planned Skylab station. The reusable shuttle could carry up to 12 crew to such a station, and would drastically bring down the cost of putting people into space, perhaps supporting up to 50 flights a year. Such a shuttle could be used to launch and service satellites, and future missions to the Moon or beyond could be assembled not by a single, expensive super heavy lifter, but by many flights of the cheaper reusable system. The station could support experiments studying the effects of zero g on biology, including that of humans, could support zero g manufacturing, astronomical observations, and could serve as a “port” for future spacecraft departing for other worlds. A small subset of this group suggested ditching the shuttle entirely, and instead supporting a station with Apollo CSMs, or a new crew vehicle launched atop Titan III’s or perhaps a second generation replacement for the Saturn 1B. This faction was largely shunted aside when it became clear that Kennedy was searching for a new, impressive big budget program.


The third and final group advocated for a human mission to Mars, the red planet. The argued that this was something that would unequivocally prove that the United States was number one when it came to spaceflight. A mission to Mars was a dream for almost every NASA planner, and even the other missions pointed towards an eventual Mars trip. However, in the other scenarios, no one expected a trip to the red planet until the 1990s at the earliest, and likely such a new mission would have to wait until the new millennium. The advocates in group three saw that now, with Robert F Kennedy as president, a unique funding opportunity, like that which led to Apollo existed that would likely would not come again. To them, a mission to the red planet could be achieved, on an Apollo like timescale, now, but only if the opportunity was seized.


The debate raged within NASA even before the proposals were presented to the president. Each side argued over petty things, like the order that the options were listed in on the report that would be sent to Kennedy’s desk, or the exact wording of the project descriptions. The groups each believed that their proposal was the only real path for America to follow, and all recognised that this would likely be their only chance. Each side reached out, looking for influential backers, who might be able to lobby their position. Initially, Wernher Von Braun, the German scientist considered the father of the Saturn V and Apollo, was in favor of all three proposals, at once. He argued that his Space Transportation System, supported by a reusable shuttle, could lead to affordable and sustainable colonisation of Mars and the Moon. However, in the face of economic and political realities, Von Braun was forced to eventually consider picking a side. He eventually settled the Mars mission, as like nearly everyone at NASA, it had always been his dream. Despite the support of Von Braun however, the Mars Mission, or “Option C” as it was called in the report, was seen as the longshot of the group.


The report, which landed on the president’s desk in April of 1970, shortly after the launch of Apollo 12, then became the focal point of the President and his National Space Policy Council. The report, hundreds of pages long, went into intricate detail on every proposal. It including cost and timeline estimates, feasibility analysis, and each section even contained a section arguing why their proposal would best demonstrate American mastery in Space. Despite being the force behind the NSPC, president Kennedy only attended a single meeting due to his presidential responsibilities. Most of the time, a proxy served to argue his position. The NSPC, going off the report, began the decision making process. One of the main things Kennedy had made clear was that he wanted a goal that the Soviets would not be able to one up the Americans on. This question was one of the first asked during the first meeting of the NSPC. A rough estimate of the N1 Herakles’ capabilities was made, assisted by top secret Department of Defense images taken of the rocket at Baikonur. In the end, after weeks of discussion, the question was answered. The only things that NASA would unequivocally be able to do FIRST, would be to develop a Space Shuttle, or to send humans to Mars. Expanded lunar activities and a space station were both programs that the Soviets could feasibly embark on, right now, and potentially beat the US to the punch. While advocates for for each program argued that America could do it better, the same could be said of Apollo, and yet, because Apollo was second, this council existed and was having this discussion. Out of the two, a mission to Mars was seen as the much flashier one, better understood by the general public, and more impressive. The main concern that the council had with the Mars mission was the cost and the timeline. Mars mission advocates pointed to the Skylab and NERVA programs, both already in development, with NERVA already showing much promise. Both of these projects would greatly support a mission to Mars, and were already mostly funded, and nearing a finished result. They also pointed to the many Saturn V upgrade studies, most of which were pretty straightforward and simple, being much cheaper than the original development of the Saturn V. The team confidently stated that such a mission could launch by 1979 (though this was with an unrealistic budget assumption, anything realistic would occur in 1981 or after). Supported by the legendary Von Braun, confident, with all the answers, and a more detailed proposal than the others, the Mars mission advocates slowly began to warm the NSPC to their position.


Finally, in July of 1970, President Robert F. Kennedy asked the NSPC for their official opinion on what the next great step in American spaceflight should be. Their recommendation surprised him at first, but as it was explained to him further, the President began to agree, reportedly getting almost giddy. On July 28, 1970, in a speech at the space center that bore his brother’s name, Robert F Kennedy announced to the public his plans. Standing beside him were Alan Shepard, John Glenn, and the crews of Apollo 10 and 11. The speech was long and characteristically eloquent, but the climax of the speech was what stuck in everyone’s minds.


We have done great things in space, we have much to be proud of. Indeed, standing with me today are brave men, the best of the best, who are all American pioneers, and heroes to us all.


Applause broke out at this point. Indeed, for the rest of the speech, applause broke out so much, that it seemed that there was less time being devoted to this actual speech, than time spent applauding it.


Today, at two spots on the surface of the Moon, a banner of freedom waves. We have, through the effort of our people, the advancement of our science, and the collective will of our nation, gained this capability, and I will not see it squandered away. Investing in space is a worthy goal, now when every human looks up at the Moon, they will know that man has touched it’s surface. Our creator has given us this vast and unknown universe, and I believe that it is our destiny to explore it. Not because there is an enemy to conquer, but because it is there. The Earth is only a small world compared to the rest of our cosmos, and I believe that this great nation, with all her people behind her, can reach out and touch the sky. But a great nation requires a great goal. And so, with this in mind, I believe that the American people should commit themselves to the goal of putting a man on the planet Mars. This great voyage will not be easy. But neither was landing a man on the Moon. Neither was crossing the Atlantic, or settling the Western Frontier. Let every American know that this country can do great things. Last decade, we accomplished an impossible dream, and man walked on another world. Well, let us commit ourselves, in the coming decade of making another dream, a reality. We will put a man on the planet Mars, and we will do it first! Because it is in our capacity to do it. Let us show the world what a free nation, fully committed to a peaceful goal, can accomplish. I will devote my every energy to the fulfillment of this goal, and I hope you all will join me.”
 
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Of course with the benefit of hindsight, we know IOTL what a costly detour STS turned out to be.

In part due to the sheer difficulty and complexity of reusable launch vehicles in and of themselves, but mainly due to how they had to build it in order to get it built at all - in many ways like an F1 Race Car, on Permanent Life Support.

That said, none of the above will be known to those in the early-70's.

From where I stand, the Soviet N1-Herakles biggest Achilles Heel at this time is the lack of High-Energy Upper Stages. They simply didn't have the time or resources needed in order to build one, let alone test any. Which massively impacts (adversely) on its BEO capabilities. This may or may not (though I lean towards 'may') be known to US Intelligence, but if they do, it's something I can be being another factor in swaying them towards Manned Mars Missions, knowing that they already have an advantage there - amongst countless others.
 
Of course with the benefit of hindsight, we know IOTL what a costly detour STS turned out to be.

In part due to the sheer difficulty and complexity of reusable launch vehicles in and of themselves, but mainly due to how they had to build it in order to get it built at all - in many ways like an F1 Race Car, on Permanent Life Support.

That said, none of the above will be known to those in the early-70's.

From where I stand, the Soviet N1-Herakles biggest Achilles Heel at this time is the lack of High-Energy Upper Stages. They simply didn't have the time or resources needed in order to build one, let alone test any. Which massively impacts (adversely) on its BEO capabilities. This may or may not (though I lean towards 'may') be known to US Intelligence, but if they do, it's something I can be being another factor in swaying them towards Manned Mars Missions, knowing that they already have an advantage there - amongst countless others.
The Soviet plans for the future will be addressed in one of the first few chapters in part II, so you'll just have to wait until then.
 
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I believe that the American people should commit themselves to the goal of putting a man on the planet Mars.

Oh boy the Reaction of Capitol Hill on that News in TL
the Republicans will scream murder and Mayhem "WE WASTED 25 BILLION DOLLARS AND LOOSE THE MOONRACE AND PREZ WANT NOW A MARSRACE ? NO WAY ! ! !"
I wonder if Schwarz tell Mondale to shut up his mouth and support His POTUS ?

One thing is sure Apollo Continue until its hardware runs out, except Bob Kennedy manage to restart Hardware production like Saturn V, what LBJ shot down in July 1968
there Possibly that NERVA survive in this TL but the Hardware R&D need allot money and Time
But one thing is sure they need Skylab and Follow reusable Space station to test Astronauts on long term space flights
 
Any chance NASA might contemplate the Sea Dragon* as a way to get a lot of tonnage up there at "reasonable" costs?

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Dragon_(rocket)
See, the thing is, that only 15 Saturn Vs were built for Apollo, and I can't imagine needing more than 20 or so heavy lifters for the Mars program, maybe more for follow on missions. This means that the per-unit cost of each launch is less important than development time and cost. While Sea Dragon would be cheaper and more capable per flight, the cost of developing it would be equal to or greater than developing the Saturn V. It just seems more plausible that NASA would stick with upgrading the Saturn V as opposed to developing Sea Dragon, Nova, or any other type of more advanced vehicle.
 
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