Map Thread XX
- Thread starter Balkanized U.S.A
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Well, I still need to flesh out the "TL" properly. The Byzantines and the Ottomans DO have emperors, but I still have to decide if I want places like the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, and France to also be ruled by Emperors... I'll change it for now. Thanks mate.
It really requires a pretty early POD to work: given relative population densities, even with P di Ci's 1300 BC POD [1] migrating indo-Europeans overrunning the yellow river civilization and doing unto their language what the Anglo-Saxons did to the Celts and Romano-Britains seems a bit iffy. Of course, this did not prevent SM Stirling from having this happen as a mere butterfly from a lasting Alexandrian Empire [2] during the Warring States period, at which time China _already_ had something like 1/4-1/5 the population of the globe and said Warring States were mobilizing more troops than anywhere else on Earth. (But then SM Stirling has always been an alternate history Edgelord.)
(Yes, thank to previous exposure to the Stirlingoccocus, this scenario is a bit triggery for me, for which I apologize)
[1] The earliest census we have is a 1000 BC or thereabouts Zhuo one of some 14 million: how accurate or even exactly what and who was being counted is uncertain, but it at least makes it clear we're talking about already pretty dense agricultural populations, at least by 1000 BC standards.
[2] "Conquistador"
Kaiphranos
Donor
To clarify, the Telephone Map Game maps aren't all necessarily in the same timeline - you're given the previous person's entry with no additional guidance and try to make a map of another part of what you think the timeline is. But with drift from one to the other, we started with "Indo-European China" and ended up with "Gallic Empire in Europe".
From one of the timelines, in which Germany had been split in seperate countries after WWII.
This is the Republic of Prussia, the former Soviet occupied zone.
During the last months of WWII, the allies agreed to split Germany (in its 1938 pre-Munich treaty borders) not just into four occupation zones but also into four seperate countries and give these own national identities, to punich Germany. Also it was agreed that East Prussia and Danzig go to Poland.
The border to the US-American zone and -influenced country is the same as in OTL. The border to the British ones differs here a bit: The Soviets get the formerly Braunschweigian part of Braunlage-Walkenried, the British get the Mecklenburgian county of Ratzeburg. Plus, the Soviets get the entirety of Berlin.
Additionally, the allies agreed they demilitarize their chunks of former Germany and a reunification is not provided / all requests of reunification will be rejected for a timeframe of one hundred years after the end of the war.
Soon after the formation of People's Republic of Prussia, the Soviets started their massive "Prussian identity"-reethicifation program with the objective that the population slowly reject their identity of being Germans for a new identity of "German speaking, but ethnically being Slavs". This whole "we are Prussians, not Germans!"-thing was actually surprisingly successful and at the end of the 80s, 57% of the population with German as a mothertongue saw themselves as Prussians instead of corresponding or related to the German-speaking populations of both Rhinephalia and Danubia.
Although the country was the communist country with the strongest economy, the People's Republic of Prussia was one the strictest communist countries of the Warsaw pact for a long time.
Since 1984, the situation slowly eased and gradually reforms have been made. Prussia could put communism behind itself with finality in late 1989.
In the 90s, the economic situation was as similar desastrous as in other former ex-eastern bloc-countries in central Europe the same time. But Prussia got economic help from Rhinephalia, Danubia, other western European states and the US. The country recuperated pretty quickly and today it is as wealthy as Czechia or Slovenia.
In 2004, Prussia joined the European Union, but other than its neibours not NATO. In a plebiscite in 2008, the Prussians rejected the question if Prussia should also join the Euro zone.
Since the mid-2010s, the country is increasingly criticized by western EU-members for its very conservative and anti-imigrant policies. Since 2013 the country followed a similar policy as Poland and Hungary. In January 2021, Prussia officially announced a very close partnership with the Visegrád Group, even joining the same "is absolutely conceivable". In the same breath, the country distanced further from Brussels. At the national election in October 2021, the population reapproved the EU-sceptical policy of the ruling party VEREUGE (= Vereinigung Rechtstaatlichkeit und Gerechtigkeit (German for "Association (of) Rule of Law and Justice").
Over the years since the 90s, the country emerged as a moderator between western countries and Russia.
please note that with "Rhinephalia" (German: Rheinfalen) is ment West Germany without Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria (Capital in Frankfurt/Main) and with "Danubia" (German: Danubien) is ment South Germany (Baden-Württemberg + Bavaria) + Austria (Capital in Munich).
France got all areas left of the rhine river as a occupation zone and country of its influence (United Rhinelands (Vereinigte Rheinlande) with the capital in Coblence) but after 15 years it joined Rhinephalia, thus the British influenced German country, what will be the only exception of reunification-permission as of an additional treaty in 1959 (treaty of Sankt Goar).
Also - as in ALL my TLs - the COVID-19 pandemic did not appear in this TL. ;-)
This is the Republic of Prussia, the former Soviet occupied zone.
During the last months of WWII, the allies agreed to split Germany (in its 1938 pre-Munich treaty borders) not just into four occupation zones but also into four seperate countries and give these own national identities, to punich Germany. Also it was agreed that East Prussia and Danzig go to Poland.
The border to the US-American zone and -influenced country is the same as in OTL. The border to the British ones differs here a bit: The Soviets get the formerly Braunschweigian part of Braunlage-Walkenried, the British get the Mecklenburgian county of Ratzeburg. Plus, the Soviets get the entirety of Berlin.
Additionally, the allies agreed they demilitarize their chunks of former Germany and a reunification is not provided / all requests of reunification will be rejected for a timeframe of one hundred years after the end of the war.
Soon after the formation of People's Republic of Prussia, the Soviets started their massive "Prussian identity"-reethicifation program with the objective that the population slowly reject their identity of being Germans for a new identity of "German speaking, but ethnically being Slavs". This whole "we are Prussians, not Germans!"-thing was actually surprisingly successful and at the end of the 80s, 57% of the population with German as a mothertongue saw themselves as Prussians instead of corresponding or related to the German-speaking populations of both Rhinephalia and Danubia.
Although the country was the communist country with the strongest economy, the People's Republic of Prussia was one the strictest communist countries of the Warsaw pact for a long time.
Since 1984, the situation slowly eased and gradually reforms have been made. Prussia could put communism behind itself with finality in late 1989.
In the 90s, the economic situation was as similar desastrous as in other former ex-eastern bloc-countries in central Europe the same time. But Prussia got economic help from Rhinephalia, Danubia, other western European states and the US. The country recuperated pretty quickly and today it is as wealthy as Czechia or Slovenia.
In 2004, Prussia joined the European Union, but other than its neibours not NATO. In a plebiscite in 2008, the Prussians rejected the question if Prussia should also join the Euro zone.
Since the mid-2010s, the country is increasingly criticized by western EU-members for its very conservative and anti-imigrant policies. Since 2013 the country followed a similar policy as Poland and Hungary. In January 2021, Prussia officially announced a very close partnership with the Visegrád Group, even joining the same "is absolutely conceivable". In the same breath, the country distanced further from Brussels. At the national election in October 2021, the population reapproved the EU-sceptical policy of the ruling party VEREUGE (= Vereinigung Rechtstaatlichkeit und Gerechtigkeit (German for "Association (of) Rule of Law and Justice").
Over the years since the 90s, the country emerged as a moderator between western countries and Russia.
please note that with "Rhinephalia" (German: Rheinfalen) is ment West Germany without Baden-Württemberg and Bavaria (Capital in Frankfurt/Main) and with "Danubia" (German: Danubien) is ment South Germany (Baden-Württemberg + Bavaria) + Austria (Capital in Munich).
France got all areas left of the rhine river as a occupation zone and country of its influence (United Rhinelands (Vereinigte Rheinlande) with the capital in Coblence) but after 15 years it joined Rhinephalia, thus the British influenced German country, what will be the only exception of reunification-permission as of an additional treaty in 1959 (treaty of Sankt Goar).
Also - as in ALL my TLs - the COVID-19 pandemic did not appear in this TL. ;-)
If even an early conquest of China is implausible, what about the converse - what could be done to preserve the Harappans? An Indo-European warlord deciding to move into Central Asia instead?
Hello, everyone! It's been a long time since I posted a map, and even longer since I posted a vector map, so I thought I'd try getting back into the swing of it. I didn't sink a lot of effort into the lore (a recurring theme in my maps), but that was sorta beside the point. I've been busy with work over the past few months, and I wanted something to take my mind off it. I started off making a map of a United States where all the states that had western claims after the Revolution didn't have any, and all those that didn't did. That spiraled into a British/Spanish wank, which evolved into the map below.
With the British holding onto the South and seizing the West Coast, and the Spanish holding onto some of Luisiana, the United States lacks much of its OTL territory, but a war between the US and Britain ended in the US forcing them to cede much of Western Canada. In the aftermath, Manitoulin Island falls into geopolitical limbo and becomes a sort of Canadian Transnistria. As a result, Canada is severely reduced, and Britain's western territories become a separate nation, which calls itself Pacifica. Elsewhere, in the South, the British kept some of the original native territory around as protectorates and buffer states, which were creatively named East Indiana and West Indiana. Instead of successfully revolting against Spanish rule, Mexico takes a route much like OTL Canada, gradually getting more autonomy and separating from Spain in the 20th century with most of Central America under its control.
With the British holding onto the South and seizing the West Coast, and the Spanish holding onto some of Luisiana, the United States lacks much of its OTL territory, but a war between the US and Britain ended in the US forcing them to cede much of Western Canada. In the aftermath, Manitoulin Island falls into geopolitical limbo and becomes a sort of Canadian Transnistria. As a result, Canada is severely reduced, and Britain's western territories become a separate nation, which calls itself Pacifica. Elsewhere, in the South, the British kept some of the original native territory around as protectorates and buffer states, which were creatively named East Indiana and West Indiana. Instead of successfully revolting against Spanish rule, Mexico takes a route much like OTL Canada, gradually getting more autonomy and separating from Spain in the 20th century with most of Central America under its control.
So what are politics like in the TTL United States?Hello, everyone! It's been a long time since I posted a map, and even longer since I posted a vector map, so I thought I'd try getting back into the swing of it. I didn't sink a lot of effort into the lore (a recurring theme in my maps), but that was sorta beside the point. I've been busy with work over the past few months, and I wanted something to take my mind off it. I started off making a map of a United States where all the states that had western claims after the Revolution didn't have any, and all those that didn't did. That spiraled into a British/Spanish wank, which evolved into the map below.
With the British holding onto the South and seizing the West Coast, and the Spanish holding onto some of Luisiana, the United States lacks much of its OTL territory, but a war between the US and Britain ended in the US forcing them to cede much of Western Canada. In the aftermath, Manitoulin Island falls into geopolitical limbo and becomes a sort of Canadian Transnistria. As a result, Canada is severely reduced, and Britain's western territories become a separate nation, which calls itself Pacifica. Elsewhere, in the South, the British kept some of the original native territory around as protectorates and buffer states, which were creatively named East Indiana and West Indiana. Instead of successfully revolting against Spanish rule, Mexico takes a route much like OTL Canada, gradually getting more autonomy and separating from Spain in the 20th century with most of Central America under its control.
I'm not saying an early conquest of China is impossible, given an invasion during a time of weak and fragmented government [1] - other steppe folk managed it on multiple occasions (although it got easier after the move from chariots to fulltime horseback riding, and the development of the stirrup and improved bows substantially increased the mobility and lethality of nomadic armies) - it's the cultural replacement which is the problem. I can see a Tocharian takeover of China during an anarchic period, but what would happen would be the historical norm in the case - the conquered become rather more Chinese than the Chinese become the invaders. Of course, the establishment of a *Yuezhi dynasty in 1300 BC so butterflies Chinese history that the place would be unrecognizable nowadays, but that's not the same as the yellow river basin becoming Indo-European.
(And what for the love of Philip Guedalla do the Harappans have to do with this? They're the Indus river civilization, not the Tarim basin one, and are generally not considered to have been Indo-European speakers.)
[1] I may seem to be contradicting myself, but while China was certainly fragmented during the Warring States period, the major players were hardly weak states.
Hello, everyone! It's been a long time since I posted a map, and even longer since I posted a vector map, so I thought I'd try getting back into the swing of it. I didn't sink a lot of effort into the lore (a recurring theme in my maps), but that was sorta beside the point. I've been busy with work over the past few months, and I wanted something to take my mind off it. I started off making a map of a United States where all the states that had western claims after the Revolution didn't have any, and all those that didn't did. That spiraled into a British/Spanish wank, which evolved into the map below.
With the British holding onto the South and seizing the West Coast, and the Spanish holding onto some of Luisiana, the United States lacks much of its OTL territory, but a war between the US and Britain ended in the US forcing them to cede much of Western Canada. In the aftermath, Manitoulin Island falls into geopolitical limbo and becomes a sort of Canadian Transnistria. As a result, Canada is severely reduced, and Britain's western territories become a separate nation, which calls itself Pacifica. Elsewhere, in the South, the British kept some of the original native territory around as protectorates and buffer states, which were creatively named East Indiana and West Indiana. Instead of successfully revolting against Spanish rule, Mexico takes a route much like OTL Canada, gradually getting more autonomy and separating from Spain in the 20th century with most of Central America under its control.
I'm just going to say it's a very nice map and not argue about the plausibility. Life's too short, and now that I'm well past 37.9, mine is shorter than most.
I believe "the converse" means "instead of thinking about the Indo-Europeans conquering a civilization they didn't IOTL, think about them not taking over a civilization they did IOTL".
Are the Yue meant to be *Vietnamese or South Chinese here? The original scenario made them South Chinese but it probably makes sense for them to be *Vietnamese here.
In this world, an Indo-European group related to the Tocharians kept moving east and settled in OTL China, establishing new states and empires. Based on Prince di Corsica's "The Land of Pyramids and Redheads". First map in the Telephone Map Game: 10th Edition.
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A very nice run of maps over the last seven pages. I particularly liked these:
Looks like this thread is going out with a bang.
Map Thread XX
The Kingdom of Italy in 1936 With the Great War erupting across Europe in 1914, Italy despite being in the Central Powers, decided to stay out of the war for the time being, with their alliance being viewed as a defensive one. The race was on between the Entente and the Central Powers on which...
www.alternatehistory.com
Map Thread XX
We are but 20 pages away from Map Thread III. *excited airhorn noises*
www.alternatehistory.com
Map Thread XX
We are but 20 pages away from Map Thread III. You mean XXI? also, it's 18 pages now
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Map Thread XX
Ladies and gentlemen, after a one month, one week and one-day hiatus, I present to you: the NEDERLANDSE KEIZERRIJK. As it happened with the Byzantine and Ottoman maps, there isn't much lore for this one, so I'll just give a short description of each region presented on the map. Anything...
www.alternatehistory.com
Map Thread XX
Ladies and gentlemen, after a one month, one week and one-day hiatus, I present to you: the NEDERLANDSE KEIZERRIJK. As it happened with the Byzantine and Ottoman maps, there isn't much lore for this one, so I'll just give a short description of each region presented on the map. Anything...
www.alternatehistory.com
Map Thread XX
het does anyone have a copy of that one alt-history map, where the North West Passage is real (as early explores and cratogrifers guessed it was) the map also had other differences based on early theories of what America looked like
www.alternatehistory.com
Looks like this thread is going out with a bang.
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