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GreaterItaly(VictoryWW1).png



The Kingdom of Italy in 1936

With the Great War erupting across Europe in 1914, Italy despite being in the Central Powers, decided to stay out of the war for the time being, with their alliance being viewed as a defensive one. The race was on between the Entente and the Central Powers on which side should Italy join. The Austrians during their secret negotiation with the Italians agree to hand over Italian majority areas in their territories (mainly Trentino). Meanwhile, the Entente weren't doing so well on the battlefields, convincing both the Italian government and the people that the Central Powers were the best choice. On May 24, 1915, Austria agree to concede Italian majority land to Italy, and on May 30th, 1915, Italy declares war on Britain and France and only hours after that their troops would march into France. The Italians were able to take Nice on June 18 and would march onto Gap, where trenches started to be built by both the French and Italians. German and Austrian forces would also see themselves arrive to southern France causing even more stress to the Entente. In Africa, Italian forces would see themselves fighting both the British and French, having invaded Tunisia and seeing Libya get invaded by the British and Egyptians. By 1917, The French would ee themselves overextended, having to send troops in both northern and southern France. Meanwhile, the US would see itself remain neutral in the conflict, with no sinking of the Lusitania to cause Anti-German sentiment to rise in the US. By 1918, with both British and French troops exhausted, and Russia out of the war, and the US neutral, The Central Powers would launch their offensive to take Paris, and on October 28, 1918, Paris falls, and on November 3, Marseille fall. On November 20, 1918, the Treaty of Berlin is signed, ending the great war with a Central victory. Italy gains several parts of southeast France, Corsica, Tunisia, Djibouti, and Somaliland. Having gained more territory than in the OTL, Mussolini never gains power and Italy never goes fascist. In Austria-Hungary, in 1920 it became clear that drastic reform is needed, and so on March 8, 1920, The United States of Danubia is formed as a federalized Austria-Hungary. In Russia, with the assassination of Lenin, poor choice by the red army commanders, more unified white forces, and German intervention, the Bolsheviks would collapse and the Russian Republic continue their existence. By 1936, Italy would see its economy in poor condition thanks to the Great Depression. Russia and France turn into Fascist dictatorships, The UK remains out of European affairs and tension would see themselves rise between Germany and France and Russia.​
 
View attachment 699159


The Kingdom of Italy in 1936

With the Great War erupting across Europe in 1914, Italy despite being in the Central Powers, decided to stay out of the war for the time being, with their alliance being viewed as a defensive one. The race was on between the Entente and the Central Powers on which side should Italy join. The Austrians during their secret negotiation with the Italians agree to hand over Italian majority areas in their territories (mainly Trentino). Meanwhile, the Entente weren't doing so well on the battlefields, convincing both the Italian government and the people that the Central Powers were the best choice. On May 24, 1915, Austria agree to concede Italian majority land to Italy, and on May 30th, 1915, Italy declares war on Britain and France and only hours after that their troops would march into France. The Italians were able to take Nice on June 18 and would march onto Gap, where trenches started to be built by both the French and Italians. German and Austrian forces would also see themselves arrive to southern France causing even more stress to the Entente. In Africa, Italian forces would see themselves fighting both the British and French, having invaded Tunisia and seeing Libya get invaded by the British and Egyptians. By 1917, The French would ee themselves overextended, having to send troops in both northern and southern France. Meanwhile, the US would see itself remain neutral in the conflict, with no sinking of the Lusitania to cause Anti-German sentiment to rise in the US. By 1918, with both British and French troops exhausted, and Russia out of the war, and the US neutral, The Central Powers would launch their offensive to take Paris, and on October 28, 1918, Paris falls, and on November 3, Marseille fall. On November 20, 1918, the Treaty of Berlin is signed, ending the great war with a Central victory. Italy gains several parts of southeast France, Corsica, Tunisia, Djibouti, and Somaliland. Having gained more territory than in the OTL, Mussolini never gains power and Italy never goes fascist. In Austria-Hungary, in 1920 it became clear that drastic reform is needed, and so on March 8, 1920, The United States of Danubia is formed as a federalized Austria-Hungary. In Russia, with the assassination of Lenin, poor choice by the red army commanders, more unified white forces, and German intervention, the Bolsheviks would collapse and the Russian Republic continue their existence. By 1936, Italy would see its economy in poor condition thanks to the Great Depression. Russia and France turn into Fascist dictatorships, The UK remains out of European affairs and tension would see themselves rise between Germany and France and Russia.​

Good map, but I doubt Italy would go that far into France; the pre-unitary borders of Nice and Savoy would be more than enough for the state, especially since Italy's getting Corsica and Tunisia as well. I also doubt Austria would be willing to cede that much land to Italy, IMO they'd agree to something similar to this, since the ethnic divide of Istria was also one between the coast and the mainland, due to Venice not really giving a damn about those places they couldn't reach by boat.

Istria1946.gif
 
Good map, but I doubt Italy would go that far into France; the pre-unitary borders of Nice and Savoy would be more than enough for the state, especially since Italy's getting Corsica and Tunisia as well. I also doubt Austria would be willing to cede that much land to Italy, IMO they'd agree to something similar to this, since the ethnic divide of Istria was also one between the coast and the mainland, due to Venice not really giving a damn about those places they couldn't reach by boat.

View attachment 699178
Wait. Are you the guy who drew these maps on UtopiaUcronia?
 
Wait. Are you the guy who drew these maps on UtopiaUcronia?
No, but I lurk on the website (I used to post there as well, before jumping ship to AH.com, since UtopiaUcronia's a bit amateur-ish in comparison) and I thought that map would display the situation nicely, even though it's about a completely different POD.
 
I dunno, like, there's nothing saying a freedmen's republic would ever have to be one hundred percent Black, and considering the fact that large parts of the area were majority enslaved before the OTL Civil War (including nearly the entire state of South Carolina), I think the demographics work out significantly better than you might think. That's not to say that there wouldn't be population movement: I can see a lot of White plantation owners emigrating after the confiscation of their lands and emancipation of their human "property", plus non-slaver White people uncomfortable with the idea of Black majority rule leaving for the whiter Upper South; there would also certainly be large-scale movement of Freedmen from further north seeking a better life somewhere they would be guaranteed to be enfranchised. I just don't think any of that at all necessarily requires "large-scale ethnic cleansing of White people".

Both Georgia and Alabama * were over 50% white (even South Carolina over 40%) and if you think white southerners of the era would peaceably abandon their lands and property to black people you have another think coming. This requires not merely a US defeat, but total US surrender, French military occupation of the place, arming the black population, disarming the white population, and dealing with the inevitable white rebellions. The US itself is going to be irredentist as hell.

* - the northern parts of Alabama included in this freedman state were rather whiter than the areas further south annexed by Louisiana, and ironically were the counties opposed to the southern secession OTL.

Sadly, looking at Haiti as an example, it seems that violence and atrocities are inevitable from both sides. The Freedmen would only be able to succeed in their ambitions with French aid - something that might see the French derided as race-traitors by the rest of Europe and America.

Yeah, as I said, this requires French boots on the ground: Haiti succeeded without outside help only because blacks outnumbered whites by better than ten to one.
Basically, for my admittedly half baked ideas regarding that state, all of this speculation is, within a few degrees, correct. I wasn't clear when precisely Freedonia was established, nor how long it will last-and if it fails, what its fate will be. My current idea is that there's a Franco-American War that's roughly analogous to the War of 1812, only with Napoleonic France being able to completely focus on the North American conflict. (part of my concept is Napoleon is able to win against the Coalition more convincingly earlier-how exactly that happened is still fluid).

Since this is a French Empire that's able to strike a deal-and more importantly keep that deal-with the Haitian Revolutionaries, it's possible to imagine a similar deal being struck with the African Americans of the Deep South. Additionally, with at least Upper Class White Flight, a land redistribution that benefits poor Whites, French military support, and African American and English speaking Afro-Caribbean immigration to Freedonia, you could probably get a plurality or a much larger minority of Black people in that area. I'd imagine small scale atrocities, especially since the model that would exist at the time for a Freedman republic would be a Louverture led Haiti, not a more willingly violent Dessalines led Haiti.

Another piece of this is the purpose Freedonia serves for the French Empire (and also for Louisiana) is to be a buffer between the US and Louisiana-who would indeed be quite revanchist against the French. Something else to note is the PoD and Franco-American War would have been before the Trail of Tears, which would also impact the demographics of Freedonia-allowing the French to possibly divide and manage better with a more diverse population.
 
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Not awake enough yet to respond, G: will have to get back to you later on that.

In the meantime, a somewhat random map. I found on a 3-5 card a possibly two decade old description of a now unidentifiable TL:

"Conservative semidemocratic France-England-Netherlands center fragmented republics
giant empires to the east: Sweden, Prussia, Austria, Russia, Poland-Lithuania, Turkey
colonies west coast US, far west as Kansas "Deseret"
many small Spanish states
big east Asian empires, fragmented Africa
mid 19th century tech?"

So, I went from there.

Random2.PNG
 
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Here's a map of Brazil from my project Atlas Altera. You can find some explanations on the current Reddit post, check out a larger map on my DeviantArt, and see the mainthread I have on this forum.

I also started a twitter account, @fraportfrank, for putting out super short stories based/referring on Altera. The latest one refers to Brazil / compliments this post. Do follow it for a micro-dose of alternate history vs real world situational ironies! :)

Brazil_Political_Alt.jpg
 
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Here's a map of Brazil from my project Atlas Altera. You can find some explanations on the current Reddit post, check out a larger map on my DeviantArt, and see the mainthread I have on this forum.

I also started a twitter account, @fraportfrank, for putting out super short stories based/referring on Altera. The latest one refers to Brazil / compliments this post. Do follow it for a micro-dose of alternate history vs real world situational ironies! :)

View attachment 699206
This is really making me long for some new map plates on your official AA site.
 

Deleted member 169412

Both Georgia and Alabama * were over 50% white (even South Carolina over 40%) and if you think white southerners of the era would peaceably abandon their lands and property to black people you have another think coming. This requires not merely a US defeat, but total US surrender, French military occupation of the place, arming the black population, disarming the white population, and dealing with the inevitable white rebellions. The US itself is going to be irredentist as hell.
Maybe so, but this is a France that has lots of very good reasons to be very wary of America. I could quite easily see France giving some local freedmen guns and letting them take revenge on the plantation owners, and if France does that and gives the freedmen a state to boot then it will have a very good ally and buffer state.

That said, Freedonia will probably be a repressive, ethno-nationalist state that ends up as a French puppet, and France will have no qualms about coming in and toppling its government if it gets any vaguely anti-French ideas. I wouldn't say that it would be worse for the average Southerner than OTL, but I wouldn't say it'd be better either.
 

qazse

Gone Fishin'
Here's a Q-BAM version of RvBOMally's scenario Musical Chairs: Atomic Edition, which basically takes Iran, North Korea and Israel, the three small nuclear powers of our timeline, and plays musical chairs with them - a nationalist democracy in Korea, a Jewish religious state in the Holy Land, and a divided Iran with a pseudo-communist north.
5Q1UhP.png

LORE (taken from the original map):
  • The PoD is the Germans winning the Battle of Kursk, allowing them to slow and somewhat reverse the Red Army’s advance. With the Eastern Front going better for Germany, the Soviets were in Poland by the time the Western Allies reached Berlin. Poland was divided during the Cold War, while Germany was rendered into a neutral state, which it still is today.
  • In Asia, the war against Japan ends before the Soviets invaded Korea, although the Soviets did invade Manchuria and give the CCP safe harbor there. The whole of Korea falls under American occupation, with the Soviets being promised occupation zones in Japan. The latter never happens as the Cold War begins.
  • The Soviets, with a smaller foothold over Europe, consolidated those gains. A Soviet-backed government took control in Greece after the civil war, and the Soviets assassinated Tito and kept Yugoslavia firmly within their grasp. Along with the fall of China to communism, tensions between the East and West grow, beginning the Cold War.
  • After the end of WWII and the attempted genocide of the Koreans by the Japanese, the Korean National Republic was formed by the Americans, who had control of the whole peninsula. After the Korean War and the subsequent engagement against Mao's China (the Chinese wanted to spread communism to Korea against the Soviets' wishes), Korea went on to unite the peninsula and take portions of what was once China that the Koreans considered their sovereign territory. The humiliated Chinese signed a ceasefire, but never a peace treaty, and they continue to claim the occupied territories. Korea remains a rather contentious actor in international politics, backed almost completely by America, but with poor relations with its neighbors.
  • Korean nationalism has become extremely wacky thanks to the efforts of the KNR government. The Korean government claims that Korea is the true progenitor of many things they obviously had nothing to do with, including, most controversially, Buddhism. This has caused a lot of trouble between Korean Buddhists and other Buddhists overseas. It has also contributed to the Chinese government’s very negative view on Buddhism, which it suppresses with more vigor than IOTL. Christianity in Korea has also been suppressed in favor of Buddhism, ironically leading to communist China supporting Christianity in its own country as a counter to Korean Buddhism.
  • The Cold War ITTL focuses more on the Third World than in Europe. With the road to revolution stymied in Europe, the Soviets put more effort into fomenting revolution throughout the Third World, the idea being that Europe would become irrelevant once the European powers lose their colonies. As a result, there are more violent independence wars throughout Asia and Africa, with many Soviet-backed governments being placed in power. In India, the Soviet-backed socialist movement becomes the political hegemon, placing India firmly in the Soviet sphere, although Indian democratic institutions remain.
  • As a counter, the Americans and Western Europeans also invest more in the Third World, with the former backing post-independence governments when the latter inevitably gave up on holding onto their colonies. The Americans are more anti-colonial than IOTL, as their policies focused on offering a better alternative to colonialism than the Soviets, rather than maintaining colonialism as the Europeans wanted. This was also aided by the fact that the Europeans and Americans had more differences in foreign policy than IOTL, as Europe was not perceived of as being under existential risk from Soviet invasion.
  • The USSR did eventually fall, although more slowly, and it retained more of its pieces. A new union was quickly negotiated between Russia, Ukraine and Belarus, leading to the modern Union State. Although initially a democratic federation of states modeled on the United States, the Union State quickly fell under the control of Russian nationalists, who turned the Union State into a de facto one party state. The Russians have, ironically, become the center for the international far right, backing old rivals and old allies in an attempt to regain international power. The Russians also depend on Eastern Orthodox religion and pan-Slavism to extend their influence; an example of this is its support for the very religious Ethiopian regime.
  • Iran was invaded and divided by the Soviet Union and Britain during WWII, ostensibly to prevent it from falling into Axis control, but in truth it was to secure Iranian oil. While the Soviets and British promised to withdraw from Iran by the end of the war, growing tensions between the two sides led to continued occupation, and eventually de facto division of Iran. The Iranian Soviet Republic, or North Iran, would be organized under strongly Stalinist lines, maintaining the system even after the denunciation of Stalin in the Soviet Union. During the Sino-Soviet split, the North Iranians were at first neutral, and then sided with China in the 1980s. North Iran would survive the fall of the Soviet bloc, and it has no friends in the world except China, and even they are starting to sour on the antics of the north.
  • Established by the British, Israel was long a toadie for Western powers, particularly Britain and America. Rather than establish a genuine democracy, out of fear of ethnic conflict between the Jews and the Arabs, the British maintained a protectorate over Israel. A popular movement against the Protectorate of Israel would be ended by CIA intervention in the 1950s. This protectorate would persist until the late 1970s, when things boiled over and a full-blown revolution occurred. The Jews, far more religious than OTL, established the Orthodox Jewish state of Zion. A "theodemocracy," Zion has become an ally of post-Soviet Russia and a proxy for anti-Western activities in the Middle East.
  • Russia’s relationship with the Jews is viewed very positively, by both Russians and Jews around the world. Russia is seen as the savior of the Jewish people from the Nazis, and the progenitor of one of the world’s first Jewish states in the form of the Jewish Autonomous Oblast. Jews, on the other hand, are seen as critical to the Bolshevik Revolution, ITTL a positive link (to Russians, at least) as it saved Russia from the backward Romanovs. Russians in particular, and the Eastern Orthodox more broadly, are seen as the defenders of the Jewish people from the anti-Semitic West and Islamic worlds.
  • As a result of a divided Iran and continued British influence in Israel, America had considerably more involvement in the Middle East than IOTL in the same period. America supported anti-communist governments in the Middle East earlier, particularly facilitating the formation of the Mesopotamian Republic, which becomes a very successful, economically powerful secular democracy. The Americans also supported Arab governments, such as the Egyptians, after the withdrawal of the Western Europeans; in fact, this support for the Arabs was a major sticking point in American-European relations. In America, Middle Easterners are viewed rather positively and “just like us,” only with a different religion. Indeed, many Persians are seen as “white” by Americans.
  • Islamic fundamentalism is less of a problem than IOTL, and the Islamic world’s view of the West is more positive. A somewhat secular, deist interpretation of Islam is rather popular in the Mesopotamian Republic and South Iran; in North Iran, Islam is banned.
  • One of the Soviet Union’s greatest successes was creating the East African People’s Union. The Soviets invested heavily in Nyerere’s socialist Tanzania, making it one of the most successful post-colonial governments in Africa. This success eventually attracted other East African states, leading to the creation of the East African People’s Union. The EAPU led much of the struggle against South Africa and its allies during the Cold War, with the EAPU eventually triumphing as the stronger African power.
  • After the end of WWII, Spain found itself isolated, particularly as a lot of Nazi officials sought refuge in the country. The Western powers saw no reason to normalize relations with Spain, as Europe was not perceived to be under threat from communism, so Spain remained a diplomatic pariah. The Spanish did become the go-to for the European powers in the 1970s and 1980s when it came to extending their influence in Africa. Fascism managed to survive Franco, even as it fell in neighboring Portugal. Although it has peaceful relations with the rest of Europe, Spain is still considered an embarrassing throwback to the bad old days which will fall apart any day now.
 
@Guildencrantz , @Louis IX

I remain unconvinced that this would be anything but a horrendous mess (you do realize that outsiders coming in, arming the slaves, and setting the black man above the white was the gut-level nightmare of the old south, right?) but I am currently all stressed out about four or five other things, and just don't have the energy to argue about it. In any case it's good to see a new map from you, @Guildencrantz : we don't see them anywhere near as often as I'd like.
 
it seems that violence and atrocities are inevitable from both sides
Don't expect that a people treated like animals since birth will show humanity to their enslavers.
The white killed tenfold what the black haitians killed, but in a lawful, organised way, and that doesn´t hurt our sensibilities as much as a bunch of black people running around with machetes.
Ten whip strikes to your back and you´d want to butcher your owner´s whole family too. At least i know I would.
 
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@Guildencrantz , @Louis IX

I remain unconvinced that this would be anything but a horrendous mess (you do realize that outsiders coming in, arming the slaves, and setting the black man above the white was the gut-level nightmare of the old south, right?) but I am currently all stressed out about four or five other things, and just don't have the energy to argue about it. In any case it's good to see a new map from you, @Guildencrantz : we don't see them anywhere near as often as I'd like.
Thanks man. Yours and everyone else's comments and critiques helped me firm up what was a very loose concept-which I might return to this TL and do some more with it at some point
 
Not awake enough yet to respond, G: will have to get back to you later on that.

In the meantime, a somewhat random map. I found on a 3-5 card a possibly two decade old description of a now unidentifiable TL:

"Conservative semidemocratic France-England-Netherlands center fragmented republics
giant empires to the east: Sweden, Prussia, Austria, Russia, Poland-Lithuania, Turkey
colonies west coast US, far west as Kansas "Deseret"
many small Spanish states
big east Asian empires, fragmented Africa
mid 19th century tech?"

So, I went from there.

View attachment 699204
1638296938007.png

Curious German presence in the Arctic Circle. 😛
I really like your card again. How do you come up with so many different ideas and manage to represent them. I am jealous!
 
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