Map Thread XX

Status
Not open for further replies.
Walvis Bay was administratively part of Southwest Africa from 1922 to 1977, so it was included in OTL census totals for 1960.

The total permanent population of this state would be around 219,873 in 1960. Though given OTL population growth that figure would be around 800,000 at the present.

That's more people than Luxembourg or (geographically a bit more comparable) more than twice as many as Iceland. So, yeah, definitely big enough to be a state.

(I'll note Western Sahara is less insignificant than it used to be: it's increased something like 20-fold since 1960, and the latest estimate is over 600,000. How many of these are immigrants from Morocco or Mauretania, I dunno.)
 
Er, not something I was denying? (Edit). I was talking about white settler colonies specifically, not African colonization in general. My point was that in situations where the white settler population is proportionately large enough in comparison to the indigenous population to dominate things without Apartheid-type weirdness, there's probably a genocide or three in the closet. The original poster noted that a minor historical change in Namibia's borders gets us a much "whiter" SW Africa, which is interesting in AH terms for several reasons, including that it rather changes the dynamics compared to the historical norm in Africa, making decolonization less likely and increasing the odds the place might end up an overseas department of Germany/the UK/whatever or an independent "white, mostly" dominion, given extra white settlers in a more securely controlled area. Someone pointed out that the percentage of white people wouldn't be so high if the colony's history didn't also include OTLs native genocide, and I made a perhaps-too-soon funny about the history of European colonization.

(Really, a colony where the majority of the workforce is from native groups [1] is probably not going to be what we'd call a white settler colony in the first place. It may be a mestizo state, it may be an apartheid state, it may be a state from which a million Europeans will have to flee: it will not be a successful white settler colony, because Europeans historically have been shit at assimilating people of different color into their own ethnicity.)

[1] Leaving aside the ""majority of the labor force is slaves/coolies" situation, which generally doesn't count IMHO as a white settler colony either: would one call Jamaica a "white settler colony?"
yeah right sorry for being pedantic, I thought about "succesful" in a wider meaning, such as being economically succesful for its white minority of metropolitan business... yes in the end I agree.
>which generally doesn't count IMHO as a white settler colony either
Mississippi/South Carolina until the great migration probably count in that case
 
Walvis Bay was administratively part of Southwest Africa from 1922 to 1977, so it was included in OTL census totals for 1960.

The total permanent population of this state would be around 219,873 in 1960. Though given OTL population growth that figure would be around 800,000 at the present.
Indeed. Seems I forgot to type the part on wondering if they would bother separating the state from South Africa here. I imagine the Afrikaners would be happy enough with the independence here, given it would have one of the largest proportion of Whites on the continent, presumably with them controlling many of the mines, port facilities, etc. The question on the Caprivi State remains, though. I was unclear on your post about the border if it implied the Portuguese got Caprivi or if it was unrelated.
 
Indeed. Seems I forgot to type the part on wondering if they would bother separating the state from South Africa here. I imagine the Afrikaners would be happy enough with the independence here, given it would have one of the largest proportion of Whites on the continent, presumably with them controlling many of the mines, port facilities, etc. The question on the Caprivi State remains, though. I was unclear on your post about the border if it implied the Portuguese got Caprivi or if it was unrelated.

Regarding the Caprivi strip, I assumed that it wouldn't exist because the OTL strip wouldn't be contiguous with a Southwest Africa that had a northern border at Cape Fria (as to who it goes to, I imagine the British would probably get it, though Portugal is possible). Granted, I suppose an alternate version of the strip could possibly be negotiated, which would add about 25,000 people to South West Africa, and drop the White percentage down to about 28%.
 
1 December 1939.png

My attempt at a map. TLDR : Switched the alliances (Romania and and Bulgaria in the Allies) and the fate of Italy, Albania and Hungary with Finland. The Soviets also never enter the war, Francoist Spain continued with a pro-Allies diplomat. There is only the African and West European front, so when Germany's kaput, from Paris to Bucharest nobody objects to the FDR plan and the Polish Republic taking slightly more land,
 
View attachment 701986
My attempt at a map. TLDR : Switched the alliances (Romania and and Bulgaria in the Allies) and the fate of Italy, Albania and Hungary with Finland. The Soviets also never enter the war, Francoist Spain continued with a pro-Allies diplomat. There is only the African and West European front, so when Germany's kaput, from Paris to Bucharest nobody objects to the FDR plan and the Polish Republic taking slightly more land,
It's missing two things here : the Belgian, Dutch and Luxembourghish lands that were planned from annexation. The Austro-Czechoslovakian border is likely wrong.
 
Also, Italy seems to have French Savoie and Corsica, which they would have had to obtain as allies of Germany in the war, and been forced to disgorge with an allied victory. And as a Nazi ally, they probably lose their Slovenian/Croatian lands as well.

(I'd suggest switching Italy with Spain rather than Finland - maybe the Republicans win in Spain, and Italy is neutral in WWII and remains so - but you'd still have to give Savoie and Corsica back to France.)
 
dew30th-632402a9-a12e-42b5-8cf0-221ef7e36b56.png


A World Without Columbus- Canahuase

It is not known if Christopher Columbus and his fleet were lost at sea, or if they reached the New World. The failure of the Columbus expedition killed off interest in westward routes to the Indies. At least, for only a while. With the Portuguese monopolization of the trade networks in the Indian Ocean, and the accidental discovery of Camarú (Brazil) by Afonso de Albuquerque in 1503, the Spanish Crown became even more desperate to organize a comeback. In 1509, Rodrigo de Bastidas landed on the coast of Ibinara (Florida) and turned northward, discovering the Bay of Martyrs (Chesapeake Bay) and Mojecato River (the Hudson River), claiming these new lands of the Indies for the Crown of Spain.

Sebastián Caboto, for Spain, voyaged further north of the Mojecato, and discovered what became known as modern Boréalie (Canada and New England) and the Saint-Louis River (the St. Lawrence River) before founding La Juana in Ibinara. Subsequent Spanish explorers claimed lands further south, such as the Antilles and Mesoalfonsina (Mesoamerica) for themselves. The Portuguese sounded the alarm, citing violations of the old north-south spheres of influence set out by the Treaty of Alcáçovas. The Spanish pled to the Pope for mediation. The Venetian Pope Gregory XII decreed by papal bull a meager modification of the line with the Treaty of Cuéllar. The new dividing line between Portuguese and Spanish spheres went from immediately south of the Canary Islands to south of the island of Cobán (Cuba).

The initial areas of colonization by the Iberian powers centered on New Spain (the eastern coast of the United States), Camarú (northern Brazil) and the All-Saints’ Sea (the Caribbean), far away from the Aztecs and Incans. And without Columbus’ sensationalist lies about the riches he found; a more truthful series of explorers spurred a more slow-drip colonization of the Alfonsinas. Portuguese influence in Mesoalfonsina and the Hurim Mountains (the Andes) in the form of trading posts and missions evolved into outright conquests of the Aztecs and Incans in the 17th century. Portugal became the eminent power of the world- dominating the East and the West.

In Europe, Spain became weaker in the short term without the vast wealth of Aztecs and Incans. But the Trastámaras survive. And no Hapsburg succession meant no costly interventions in England and the Holy Roman Empire. The result is a stronger Spain in the long term, with less of its colonial wealth escaping to northern Europe, considerably less economic stagnation, and a record of development more closely mirroring that of Britain and France.

The butterflying of Martin Luther resulted in more uncompromising breaks with the Catholic Church. A bloodier Reformation tore the Holy Roman Empire apart, with the “Reformed” churches being limited to Germany and the Alps thanks to fewer princely conversions. The Low Countries remained in Catholic Hapsburg hands. A Catholic England under Arthur I and a still-strong Tudor dynasty, forged a close centuries-long alliance with Spain against the French.

Back to the New World, the French, ignoring the demarcations set forth by the Treaty of Cuéllar, colonized New France- which would become Boréalie. In New Spain, the focus of the colonies became direct settlement along coasts, which struggled with creating a viable tobacco economy. The increased demand for sugar in Europe soon resulted in the southern colonies’ significant cultivation in the eighteenth century and an intensification in the usage of slavery. In time, the brutality of colonialism would be washed away in the First Age of Revolutions.

The world is roughly fifty years behind, technology-wise from OTL. The delayed plundering of precious metals in the lands of the Aztecs and Incans means a delay in the transfer of wealth to Europe and to Asia, delaying developments in both global trade and industrial capitalism. The introduction of syphilis to Europe is delayed, as is the potato. The New World is browner, with the much-delayed conquests of the most advanced native polities, the slower settler colonization, and the greater indigenous adaptability to disease and European warfare over time. It is blacker too, with Portugal’s near-monopoly of the African slave trade fueling its Alfonsinian colonies.


Chapter 12: Canahuase from Politics of Latin America: The Power Game, Sixth Edition, by William Ables and Stéphane Massis

Introduction

In the second decade of the twenty-first century, Canahuase is a country beset with a host of complex problems. Although a formal constitutional democracy with an extensive history of civilian rule, Canahuase’s political regime has often been restrictive in character and even today fails to provide effective guarantees of basic civil rights and liberties to all its citizens. Since the onset of the Great Revolutionary Wars and the severing of old markets in Europe, it faces a still-ongoing economic recession, a growing inflation crisis, three established urban insurrectionary movements, vicious reactionary militia groups, and copious interference from the three polarities in its domestic politics.

Alongside these seemingly intractable problems, however, Canahuase is notable for the dynamism of its cities and the entrepreneurial spirit of its people. In the cultural realm, its artists demonstrate impressive creativity, ranging from the Jensen Prize-winning novelist Santiago Colgrave Jáuregui and the world-renowned painter/sculptor Luis Pinedo Berlanga to the actress Paulina Pérez and the popular music sensations Faustino and Daniela del Valle. The political arena itself is striking for the sheer valor of many nonviolent political activists, the historical capacity for compromise of political elites, and the notable ability of ordinary citizens to “muddle through” repeated crises.

Canahuase is located on the eastern coast of North Alfonsina, adjoining the Atlantic Ocean, the Straits of Ibinara, and the Gulf of Tectetan, and sharing borders with Jordania, Pelatepe, and Machasen. At 318,000 square standard miles in area, it is the sixth-largest country in North Alfonsina. Its geography is dominated by the Atlantic coastal lowlands and the rolling uplands of the Falda Hunerica, both of which enter the country through its northern border with Machasen and run southwards. Past the Falda Hunerica lie the Huneras Mountains, denoting the border with Pelatepe, and birthing Canahuase’s many flowing rivers. The majority of Canahuasans live in cities and towns strewn along the coasts and the fall line separating the coastal plains from the Falda Hunerica.

Canahuase’s population of 24 million is the third-largest among the Hispanic Alfonsinian countries, exceeded by Jordania, Pelatepe, and La Evangelista. Most Canahuasans are mestizos, that is, of mixed indigenous and European origin, with substantial numbers of Caucasians, Afro-Canahuasans, indigenous peoples, mulattos, and zambos. Spanish is the principal language, although indigenous languages are still spoken in some regions and are recognized as official by the 2017 constitution. The vast majority of Canahuasans identify themselves as Roman Catholic, with small Reformed and Jewish communities.


DeviantArt Link
 
Last edited:
Also, Italy seems to have French Savoie and Corsica, which they would have had to obtain as allies of Germany in the war, and been forced to disgorge with an allied victory. And as a Nazi ally, they probably lose their Slovenian/Croatian lands as well.

(I'd suggest switching Italy with Spain rather than Finland - maybe the Republicans win in Spain, and Italy is neutral in WWII and remains so - but you'd still have to give Savoie and Corsica back to France.)

The basic idea for this greater Italy would be a much weaker Free France combined with a quicker/better response from the turnaround from the King and those who aligned with him, plus Operation Achse failing miserably.

The basic idea of the map came from a complain from fellow Italians who viewed the changing sides turnaround as a very bad deal, not as bad as what happened to Germany from 1944-1949 but still a shitty deal. Basically like the meme of the deal guy "I receive : you changing side / You receive : nothing".

The only way I envision this Italy staying as it is on map is the WAllies completely botching or failing the Mediterranean and North African campaigns.
 
Also, Italy seems to have French Savoie and Corsica, which they would have had to obtain as allies of Germany in the war, and been forced to disgorge with an allied victory. And as a Nazi ally, they probably lose their Slovenian/Croatian lands as well.

(I'd suggest switching Italy with Spain rather than Finland - maybe the Republicans win in Spain, and Italy is neutral in WWII and remains so - but you'd still have to give Savoie and Corsica back to France.)
Regarding Spain, in my humble opinion it would be enough just to :
  1. Keep the same pro-Wallies diplomat
  2. Since there is no Spanish sent to fight the Soviets because there is no Ostfront / Great Patriotic War.
On again the Meditteranean campaign, I discussed once with a military guy who was doing high school exams with me, who had said Hitler should have gone for the Middle East Oil, so that is why you see Sinai belonging to Mandatory Palestine and a United Syria. The first is just my doing but the second was proposed but rejected by many local Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis and others. In my head, if the Wallies DO get desperate that the Italo-German forces are close to the Sinai it could happen, although HIGHLY IMPROBABLE, but with still a 1% chance of happening.
 
This map was inspired by @Dking527 TL and also my idea of a better N.Africa Campaign for the Axis, followed by a Belgian-style collapse of most of French Africa, with the colonial neighbors. I think it could happen but France would need to be in a very much poor state. Ethiopia (now just Amhara basically) isn't doing great either since the Italians left hurriedly and left many weapons and equipment to the local Somalis, Eritreans and others.

I didn't do anything besides changing colors. I left the borders with the same colors since there is no way in hell they would recognize the changing of the flags.

dd8xfwg-3f118043-3d1c-4439-b68d-a0d71732af99.png
 
This map was inspired by @Dking527 TL and also my idea of a better N.Africa Campaign for the Axis, followed by a Belgian-style collapse of most of French Africa, with the colonial neighbors. I think it could happen but France would need to be in a very much poor state. Ethiopia (now just Amhara basically) isn't doing great either since the Italians left hurriedly and left many weapons and equipment to the local Somalis, Eritreans and others.

I didn't do anything besides changing colors. I left the borders with the same colors since there is no way in hell they would recognize the changing of the flags.

View attachment 702208
After decolonization and before the Biafran and Katangan Wars of Independence. I tried adding them myself but with my limited resources it will take me a ton of time.
dd8xfwg-3f118043-3d1c-4439-b68d-a0d71732af99.png
 
1639231934661.png


A friend and I have worked on a TL called "Sanssouci", where Germany quickly wins WW1, France gets all lefty and revanchist and Russia becomes a social-democrat republic under a Labor/Menchevik/KD Troika, and that is one of the outcomes (namely: Poland sides with Russia and France, and France goes the worse possible route aka Marcel Déat gets in power, Britain doesn't intervene and Russia isn't disgusted enough to renounce vengeance over Germany). The dark blue is obviously France, light purple is Poland, Beligum advocated Luxemburg was "the German Emperor's first victim" and managed to get it as a sort of little puppet, avoiding it the horrible French occupation. The blue area in Ruhr and around Frankfurt is an occupation zone, one that is managed with incredible amounts of cruelty (so bad that the Austrian Empire, that remained neutral and is kind of running around to prevent the former warzones from fully collapsing and rescuing orphans from both sides of the war, actively asked to just be allowed to evacuate the German civilians from the occupation zone and let the French have the coal and the factories). Also, since they didn't get their hands on the German Imperial Family, they killed them in effigy by blowing up Hohenzollern Castle.

I'd like to make it 100% clear that this isn't a Germanophobe or Francophobe piece, this is 100% the worst possible scenario you can go for Europe (best scenario being dovish Etienne Bonnet realizing that with the amount of gases and biological weapons each side can produce, neither France, nor Germany nor Russia will come out on top and this will be a disaster, and getting the German Emperor to see that too, thus peacefully settling the boundaries back to 1815 boundaries). At first we wanted to think of a quick German victory, and I came up with the idea that instead of converging towards French Hitler, it'd be more interesting to have a genuinely left-wing democracy all worked up on revanchism in command in France and feel more specific, until we arrived at the conclusion that this would end in a fucking horrible massacre where all the worst weapons of WW1 would be in full swing without any qualms about using them.
 
The basic idea for this greater Italy would be a much weaker Free France combined with a quicker/better response from the turnaround from the King and those who aligned with him, plus Operation Achse failing miserably.

The basic idea of the map came from a complain from fellow Italians who viewed the changing sides turnaround as a very bad deal, not as bad as what happened to Germany from 1944-1949 but still a shitty deal. Basically like the meme of the deal guy "I receive : you changing side / You receive : nothing".

The only way I envision this Italy staying as it is on map is the WAllies completely botching or failing the Mediterranean and North African campaigns.

My immediate reaction shows I was correct earlier - I'm definitely not in a good enough mood to offer constructive criticism. I am therefore giving up discussion of other people's work for the holidays. :coldsweat:
 
Excellent. What are the three polarities?

Hope we see more of this world.
Thank you! The three polarities are a revolutionary German-Chinese bloc, a reactionary Luso-British bloc, and a catch-all Russian sphere.

I do hope to explore this further. Though probably in smaller projects.
 

Deleted member 163405

This map was inspired by @Dking527 TL and also my idea of a better N.Africa Campaign for the Axis, followed by a Belgian-style collapse of most of French Africa, with the colonial neighbors. I think it could happen but France would need to be in a very much poor state. Ethiopia (now just Amhara basically) isn't doing great either since the Italians left hurriedly and left many weapons and equipment to the local Somalis, Eritreans and others.

I didn't do anything besides changing colors. I left the borders with the same colors since there is no way in hell they would recognize the changing of the flags.

View attachment 702208
That’s actually really cool! Thank you I’m honored
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top