Malaya What If

[JWilly48519]

More Dutch 2/3 wheel stuff.

This is an early-1930s-Dutch-made Eysink motorcycle, somewhat similar to a Harley Davidson model of the time except for front suspension, with a Lewis gun.

The Dutch also operated American-made, late-1930s Harleys, and British-made BSAs and Triumphs.

I believe the Dutch army (KNIL) organization and TOE in NEI included motorcycle equipped forces, same as in Netherlands.

Dutch recon platoon. That's a (British-made?) Ford truck at upper right:

The car below in the background may be a 1938-39 Pontiac.

The photo below, I think, was from Java. Note the western-suit-clad man in the reviewing stand that appears to be wearing a fez. Not obvious garb for 1940 Java, but not for 1940 Netherlands either.

The Dutch armored car below is the type that had too much ground pressure to pursue the survivors of one of the (fiasco) German airfield paradrops as they fled into the adjacent sand dunes, so that those paras were able to hide and survive until German ground forces arrived.

 

[JWilly48519]

This APC, the Braat Overvalwagen, was manufactured by the Dutch Machinefabriek Braat NV company in Surabaya, Java in 1940. An armored car version also existed. All versions were open-top with available canvas covers for rainy weather, as far as I know.

Different sources say that 25 or 90 were built. Some historical analyses suggest that 25 was the number of armored-truck APCs built, and the remainder were armored cars.

This version obviously had APC capability, but was considered an armored car due to the integrated weaponry, which appears on the lead vehicle to possibly be a 20mm gun. Also note that the rear of the vehicle apparently has a pintle mount to accept one of the squad's LMGs.

Below, the third vehicle in line appears to be the same armored car model. The infantry-trucks also are of interest.

This photo is dockside in Surabaya port. The ship at dockside is the light cruiser De Ruyter. Note the multiple twin Bofors 40mm mounts on her afterdeck

 

[JWilly48519]

Other Dutch (NEI) fighting vehicles:

Marmon-Herrington CTLS (-3 series) light tank--"several hundred" ordered, 10 delivered before OTL hostilities commenced, ~150 more were OTL on the way and were diverted to Australia and used for training. If ITTL NEI remains viable for longer, that additional 150 tanks might arrive. Two man crew, armor 0,5 inch at most, armed with 1-Browning .50 M2 HMG and 2-Browning M1919 .30 MMGs.

Marmon-Herrington CTMS-1TB1 light-medium tank--about 200 ordered by the Dutch for NEI. OTL, scheduled to commence shipment in mid March 1942, but NEI fell on March 8. Three man crew, armor up to 1 inch thick, armed with 1-37mm semiautomatic cannon and 1-Browning M1919 .30 caliber, both mounted in a two man turret, plus 1-Browning M1919 .30 caliber in hull. By contemporary accounts, this wasn't the best tank, but was OK for the period.

Marmon-Herrington medium tank...OTL, 200 ordered, none delivered. Terrible design by a company that was even farther behind the state of the art than most other (non-German/British/French/Czech) tank makers. Not developed far enough, early enough, to have been useful OTL or TTL. Two semiautomatic 37mm cannons firing from five round clips, three hull mounted MGs, one coaxial MG, one ball mount MG in the turret side, two pintle mount MGs at the rear of the turret. Powertrain and suspension were designed for a ten ton tank and were marginal for it, but were used basically unmodified in this 22 ton tank. 1.5 inch armor on the hull front. Aberdeen testing by US Army showed that the cannons consistently jammed whenever they were fired. Four man crew, but only one hatch for entry/exit. Not enough crew members even to fire all of the guns, let alone reload them.

The US Army test report said, in relation to a proposal that some branch of the US military could take over the contract after NEI fell: “The vehicle is thoroughly unreliable, mechanically and structurally unsound, underpowered and equipped with unsatisfactory armament. The 4-Man Dutch Tank Model MTLS-1GI4 is not a satisfactory combat vehicle for any branch of the Armed Forces”.

Alvis Straussler AC3D Armored Car--12. MG armed, 4 man crew.

Vickers Utility Tractor--20 OTL, plus 30 more on order, but captured by the Germans at the Belgian factory when Belgium fell. Used in NEI to tow 47mm Bohler AT guns, behind a limber-trailer that carried ammo and most of the gun crew, as shown below:

A British version...the LMG mount was not a factory feature:

Marmon Herrington Mk. II and III armored cars--the ones in NEI were castoffs from the South African forces in Libya/Egypt. The British sent 50 of them to NEI as substitutes for a large prepaid order of Vickers light tanks that the British chose to confiscate and retain for their own use.

I believe Dutch forces in Netherlands operated Marmon Herrington Mark III ACs in their 1940 fighting. I referenced them in a post above about Dutch airfield defense against fallshirmjagers.

These ACs were an old design by late 1941/early 1942, had been heavily used and minimally maintained in the Western Desert fighting, and mostly were worn out. A majority had major engine problems, transmission failure or both. Also, all of the ACs had been disarmed. OTL, about 27 were made functional by NEI mechanics through cannibalization and substitution of close-enough parts, and those were re-armed with a range of available weapons.

White M3A1 Scout Cars--OTL, 400 ordered, 40 arrived before NEI fell. All equipped with radios.

M3 light tanks--OTL, 200 ordered. 50 were on the way but none arrived before the NEI surrender. All to be equipped with radios.

Bantam Jeeps--OTL, 700 ordered, 300 received before NEI fell. Many were armed with pintle mounted M2 or M1919 MGs. Many (all?) to be equipped with radios.

 

[Aussie]

Good afternoon;
From a Facebook feed, I follow.
Slightly off topic, and undated, but could be relevant.
HNLMS Java, in Sydney.

 

[Aussie]

Good afternoon;
From a Facebook feed, I follow.
Slightly off topic, and undated, but could be relevant.
HNLMS Java, in Sydney.

Apology, the copy across isn't the best.
Tap the image for a clearer view.

 

[JWilly48519]

Very late in the available time, probably following the events in Netherlands and then in France and Belgium, the NEI Dutch realized that mobile AA was going to be critical to their forces' ability to survive against Japanese air-to-ground attacks. Efforts were made to equip available platforms with available weapons.

I don't know what the main weapon is below. The water jacket is too long for an MG 08 or a Vickers, the two heaviest MGs that NEI forces were known to have. I'd guess it was a Vickers two pounder pom-pom...the Low Velocity model that was the standard version through most of the 1930s, obtained somehow by the Dutch from their British neighbors...but see the next photo which shows two of that same gun side by side in the truck bed. I don't think two pom-poms would physically fit in that configuration.

In any case, clearly the Dutch were making efforts to upgrade their mobile AA capability.

This might be the same unit as the first photo, or another vehicle, part of the same project. This appears to have two of the primary armament, side by side, plus the LMG on the front pintle.

 

[Amir]

It looks like the fit is a single water cooled M1921 (.50 cal browning), 2-4 water cooled M1917s (.30 cal browning), and what I’m guessing is a BREN. Plus a guitar.

 

[Driftless]

(Snip) Plus a guitar.

Well.... the secret weapon against invading Martians was broadcasting a yodeling Slim Whitman.😁

Maybe the KNIL entertained somewhat similar ideas that a guitar-strumming troubador could bring down Japanese aircraft? 😉

( Its way past my bedtime I think)

 

[JWilly48519]

It looks like the fit is a single water cooled M1921 (.50 cal browning), 2-4 water cooled M1917s (.30 cal browning), and what I’m guessing is a BREN. Plus a guitar.

Hmmm. OK, obviously I've misinterpreted the second photo, and it seems likely that both photos are of the same unit. Either that, or the Dutch built more than one identically.

In my (weak) defense, I had cataract surgery a week ago and today, and things are a bit of a blur.

Here are some water cooled .50s. Definitely could be a match. It'd be easier to be certain if the distinctive ammo can and sustained-fire cooling-water hoses were present on the Dutch guns. But, most everything else looks like it fits.

 

[JWilly48519]

It must be hard to keep an acoustic guitar in tune and mildew-free in Java's humidity.

 

[Amir]

If only Eddie Van Halen was born 30 years earlier. He’d have defeated the IJA Six String Samurai and turned the tide of battle!

 

[Butchpfd]

Hmmm. OK, obviously I've misinterpreted the second photo, and it seems likely that both photos are of the same unit. Either that, or the Dutch built more than one identically.

In my (weak) defense, I had cataract surgery a week ago and today, and things are a bit of a blur.

Here are some water cooled .50s. Definitely could be a match. It'd be easier to be certain if the distinctive ammo can and sustained-fire cooling-water hoses were present on the Dutch guns. But, most everything else looks like it fits.

The MG behind the .50 cal AAA, could be a standard .50 water cooled MG.
As a note; the Marine Defense Battalions used both types of .50 cal MG at this time; as did the AAA batteries of the Cavite and Olopongo separate marine Battalions in the Philippines . The USMC guns were part of each Battalions Heavy Weapons Company.

 

[JWilly48519]

There have been plenty of descriptions over the years of "killer" guitar riffs.

 

[freelander]

My step father had a Universal Carrier in the late 70’s we used it on the farm I spent many hours flying through the fields in it. Sadly when he passed away it was left to my step brother who left it to rot away I spent many a year trying to buy it of him alas he refused. In the end he sold what was left of it to a collector.

Looking at what the U.K. military used in Afghanistan I always think a carrier would have come in handy much better than a Quad Bike that I had the unfortunate experience of driving.

 

[Julius Vogel]

My step father had a Universal Carrier in the late 70’s we used it on the farm I spent many hours flying through the fields in it. Sadly when he passed away it was left to my step brother who left it to rot away I spent many a year trying to buy it of him alas he refused. In the end he sold what was left of it to a collector.

Looking at what the U.K. military used in Afghanistan I always think a carrier would have come in handy much better than a Quad Bike that I had the unfortunate experience of driving.

Must have been loads of stories like that. I recall finding a photo on an archive website from a local flour mill, who purchased a universal carrier to use as a tractor/transport unit

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Hi all, apologies for no recent posts, the festive holiday has been very hectic, leaving me no time to write. Normal service will resume in the new year.

 

[Amir]

The MG behind the .50 cal AAA, could be a standard .50 water cooled MG.
As a note; the Marine Defense Battalions used both types of .50 cal MG at this time; as did the AAA batteries of the Cavite and Olopongo separate marine Battalions in the Philippines . The USMC guns were part of each Battalions Heavy Weapons Company.

Watercooled MGs in sustained fire roles are a thing of beauty as long as you can keep them fed and watered. Aircooled guns require more in the way of operator training in firing techniques, barrel changes, and maintenance procedures as the price for their relative portability and utility.

Bergerud has a section in “Touched by Fire” detailing the sustained employment of Vickers HMGs by the AIF against IJA positions in Ramu Valley and Shaggy Ridge. The guns and 3” mortars were in near continuous use in both direct fire and plunging (indirect fires) to prevent the movement of Japanese forces and supplies. Plunging MG fire is possible with an air cooled gun (ex. FN MAG), but the volume of fire is nowhere near equivalent to what you get from a water cooled gun.

 

[vetinari]

Watercooled MGs in sustained fire roles are a thing of beauty as long as you can keep them fed and watered. Aircooled guns require more in the way of operator training in firing techniques, barrel changes, and maintenance procedures as the price for their relative portability and utility.

Bergerud has a section in “Touched by Fire” detailing the sustained employment of Vickers HMGs by the AIF against IJA positions in Ramu Valley and Shaggy Ridge. The guns and 3” mortars were in near continuous use in both direct fire and plunging (indirect fires) to prevent the movement of Japanese forces and supplies. Plunging MG fire is possible with an air cooled gun (ex. FN MAG), but the volume of fire is nowhere near equivalent to what you get from a water cooled gun.

The Vickers MMG was considered the King of MGs. I had a friend who was summoned back to Singleton in the mid-1980s to rewrite the training pam on the Vickers when it was re-adopted by the Australian Army. He believed there was nothing to match it as an SFMG. The Australian Army condemned all it's M60 GPMGs because of cracked receivers and decided to re-adopt the Vickers. However it proved too expensive and in the wrong calibre for use and was only temporary as the FN-MAG was adopted to replace the M60. The FN-MAG won the competition for a new GPMG in 1959 but a political decision saw the Army forced to adopt the M60 instead which it was saddled with for 25 years.

 

[steamboy]

and there's the thing about the 5 million rounds a Vickers fired.

What is the longest that a machine gun ever continuously fired? In 1963 a vickers machine gun fired 5 million rounds over 7 days. Fired in 250 round bursts, teams of 3 took 1/2 hour shifts firing and shovelling shell casings away. barrels were changed every hour and a half

Whilst its ROF isn't great, the Vickers is utterly reliable, and, as was said earlier, if you keep feeding it water, ammunition and when needed barrels, its just going to keep TAKA-TAKA-TAKAing away.

Gun Jesus did a great video about them

 

[Julius Vogel]

Hi all, apologies for no recent posts, the festive holiday has been very hectic, leaving me no time to write. Normal service will resume in the new year.

Enjoy your holidays!