Malaya What If

[Fatboy Coxy]

Here's one of those tidbits of history...

Baguio Air Crash Probed - Assembly Honors Ord Army Probers in Baguio Reported in Disagreement On Crash Cause - The Tribune (Philippines : 1932 - 1945) - 1 Feb 1938

Services for the late Col. James B. Ord, member of the MacArthur military mission, who perished tragically in an air crash in Baguio ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Lt. Col. James B. Ord may have been just another 20th Century Zapp Brannigan (Futurama).
He died trying to drop a message from a plane inbound to Baguio to a friend's house that he
was arriving at the airport. He should have at least be given honorary consideration for the
1938 Darwin Awards.

What no mention of Ords boss?, now he was a real talent!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Lord Gort. Desperate news. The Americans have beaten us to the pinnacle of the Staffs that are conceited, hide bound and danger to their own troops. This leaves us third, behind the Japanese.

Oh dear, third place, I need to write a little a bit about Colonel (he gets promoted Brigadier in November) Kenneth Sanderson Torrance, that'll move us up the list!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

MacArthur is full of it the Gurkhas would walk over the Philippine Scouts.

Not a historical quote, but I wanted something that would wind up Gort, and was something that MacArthur could quite believably say.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

MacArthur is full of it the Gurkhas would walk over the Philippine Scouts.

The Gurkhas have an almost mythical status with us Brits, I'm not sure the rest of the world understands that.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Depends on the Gurkha

There was 2 battalions OTL in Singapore both barely trained and 1 of them arrived full of 18 year olds raw recruits

I would choose the Scouts over them

But in general your point stands

and

I want to say that it was the 28th IA Bde in the OTL. I believe they (Gurkha) were mauled, not unexpectedly, due to inexperience and inadequate training and/or provisioning.
They had continual grinding actions at Asun, Jitra, Kroh, Gurun and Ipoh.

Hi Cryhavoc101 and Nevarinemex, 28th Gurkha Brigade arrived in September 1941, with three Gurkha battalions, and as said were very raw. In time, with training, they would have been as good as any other Gurkha unit, but time wasnt on their side.

Interestingly, later in India and Burma, a Gurkha battalion was often paired with two Indian battalions, instead of a British one , an indication of how much the British trusted them.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

I do hope that UK-US cooperation does better then it did IOTL, though considering just how low the bar is set, that should not be too hard. While it is likely that US and PH Ground and Air forces will get IOTL treatment, but maybe Adm. Hart could be spurred into action? With British making an effort, the Dutch building up their infrastructure (was there something about port being built up on the Western coast of Java?), and in general greater sense of purpose and direction shown by their European Allies, that could result in changes? I mean, we are not even talking about warships proper, take the Submarine Tender USS Canopus, any Australian based US submarines would have benefitted greatly from both the expertise of their crews as well as replenishment and sustainment capabilities provided by the ship and its specialized workshops.

and

As was discussed in an earlier post, Coxy is going by actual timeline for U.S. forces. To refresh OTL, Hart's wish list (4thMarines out of China mid summer and integrated with 2 Battalions and detachments, attached to 16thNaval District: 2 more cruisers , a squadron of newer destroyers and tender, and his own combat aviation. Need for an aviation unit going back to his predecessor Adm. Yarnell, who prior to commanding the Asiatic Fleet commanded the Lexington and Saratoga in a successful War Game attack on Pearl Harbor.

Hi Triune Kingdom and Butchpfd, as said, I'm staying historical with regard to Americans in the Philippines, at least up to the shooting. After that as things develop, I'll be looking to opinions of what could happen going forward with regard to American strategy. Of course you can't comment yet, because you don't know whats going to happen!

 

[kelgar04]

The Gurkhas have an almost mythical status with us Brits, I'm not sure the rest of the world understands that.

When you see a squad of them pull out knives when someone says it's time to get serious and take an enemy strong point its easy to believe.

 

[dave_r_gilbert]

When you see a squad of them pull out knives when someone says it's time to get serious and take an enemy strong point its easy to believe.

My father was in japan in '45-46 as part of the RN.
One of his anecdotes was travelling on a train, in the carriage reserved for occupation forces, when a number of japanese got into the carriage.
2 gurkhas who were also in the carriage stood up, and reached behind them.
The carriage cleared before they drew the kukris.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

My father was in japan in '45-46 as part of the RN.
One of his anecdotes was travelling on a train, in the carriage reserved for occupation forces, when a number of japanese got into the carriage.
2 gurkhas who were also in the carriage stood up, and reached behind them.
The carriage cleared before they drew the kukris.

My late father had a similar story regarding rioting Chinese communists in Hong Kong.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Actually, you've hit on something. It's a follow up to the prior 12 AUG 41 thread. I understand two things could be unfolding. The first is observing AND MENTIONING the pomposity of a "less than and never will be" in GEN Sutherland. The second is that Sutherland fellow reminds Lord Gort of someone familiar <insert name> in the British structure. The British military are far more adept where subtleties in politics are concerned. They've dealt for hundreds of years with "the Continent" and various prickly personalities. The way I read it is Lord Gort is suggesting that they remove Sutherland from the equation to achieve the desired results. And build up ADM Hart to ADM Stark, FDR, The Admiralty and the PM, so that some arms can be twisted in favor of mutual and powerful sea-based efforts. Never mention it yourself. Let your aides mention it and then they follow through.

Hi Nevarinemex, sorry to raise your hopes, Sutherland is staying!

Lord Gort and GEN MacArthur are peer level. Lord Gort was CIGS. GEN MacArthur was US RA CoS. Both have been at the top. Please do not dismiss the potential for their working cordially or complementing each other. Their pride is a bit hurt. A few quips over pink gins are merely remarking on ones' first impressions. The delivery of marching orders to subordinates. And agreeing whom to go after and who to support. The reality is that both Generals would appreciate that they now have a someone in theater who is on THEIR level. And both Generals are isolated from the powers in charge by an enormous distance. A pleasant but fruitful and supportive rivalry could be hatching.

I agree they are peers, but whether they could get on, character wise, I doubt. The big thing here is their land armies are too far apart to be able to help each other, other than tie down Japanese forces that might otherwise be free to support the other arm of attack. Both air forces were smashed in a few days.

ADM Stark, not ADM King runs the USN at this time. ADM Stark is appreciative of the efforts the RN. Vice versa. Is the RN more serious about its SE Asia commitment? This can segue into more belated commitment of US resources. it's a matter for discussion aboard USS Augusta in a few weeks. At this point in time, the USN has many of its decisions issued as GO or EO. It won't require the reshuffle until after FDR's Battleline Yacht Club rests in the mud of Pearl Harbor.

I've always viewed the US Navy as being out of step with Roosevelt regarding dealing with Japan. He wanted the fleet deployed forward to Hawaii, to help apply pressure on Japan, the Navy very much didn't want to go. MacArthur seemed to convince Roosevelt that the Philippines could be held, the US Navy never did, which is why they never built up the Asiatic Fleet.

At the start of the war, putting the devastation caused by the attack on Pearl Harbor to one side, the US Navy simply didn't have enough of a fleet train to support a substantial force projection towards the Philippines, and they most defiantly didn't have it before it all kicked off. So where does Roosevelt get this gung ho attitude towards the Japanese, did he appreciate he was bluffing the Japanese, or did MacArthur, with talk of turning the Philippines into a strategic base from which to bomb Taiwan (Formosa), China, and the Japanese mandate islands, add to his belief in any Japanese military action was a lost cause.

If you research Foggy Bottoms dismay with US Secretaries Morgenthau (Treasury) and Ickes (Interior) shenanigans while FDR was incommunicado aboard Augusta, the war could have been temporarily delayed. Their joint actions to shut off Japan totally were insubordinate to FDR's expressed plans to use the embargoes to throttle Japan. Reducing and then reopening resources were his thoughts. It provides the non-seppuku nationalists maneuver room. I've always wondered whether Japan had purchased oil from Interior and paid for it through reserves deposited at Treasury. Except Ickes sold the oil off and Morgenthau invested the funds elsewhere.

Its interesting you mention these guys, because a part of me thinks that some of this Gung Ho attitude stems from those around him, and not the military chiefs. I've been researching the defence of the Philippines to help me write those chapters, as well as understand what America might do once the fighting starts and my changes take effect. A source I use a lot, and highly recommend is Hyperwar http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/. And while I was going through one page re the defence of the Philippines, I found that military decisions were being overturned by FDR aides, with FDR later confirming that. Now I know in the democratic world we live in, even during war, sometimes its the democratically elected leader that makes the final decision, and bases that decision on whats right democratically, or even morally, while a military decision is based on hard military fact.

My example is the Pensacola convoy, and whether it should continue its journey or return to Hawaii, after the Pearl Harbor attack. Have a read of Chapter IX: Strategy and Logistics, see https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-P-PI/USA-P-PI-9.html. Mr Stimson kind of leads it for FDR initially, with a "we can't give up on them" (MacArthur) viewpoint to justify the decision, while Admiral Stark, ably supported by Hart is very realistic about what can be done militarily, and what can't, and Stark seem to be having to run a damage limitation exercise on what the civilians want to happen in the Philippines.

I'd welcome others views on this

 

[Driftless]

^^^ US Admiral James Richardson was an ardent opponent of FDR's plan to move the heavies of the US Pacific fleet from the US West Coast to Pearl Harbor, to the point where he was sacked - to be replaced by Adm Husband Kimmel, who in turn was later to take the fall for the Navy's part in the Pearl Harbor disaster.

Both Richardson and Hart(in 1942) were excluded from combat commands, ostensibly because of age, but you can probably make some case for both Admirals had the temerity to prove the CIC catastrophically wrong.

 

[Butchpfd]

And GEN MacArthur had an almost mythical status with us Yanks! Now once the shooting starts. if Malaya can send a squadron of Buffaloes or Hurricanes, up the Makassar to Del Monte and on to Del Carmen...Or just before the shooting starts divert the SS President Harrison with one of the HK Battalions to Manila...

Once the war starts Malaya will need every plane. An additional squadron will not make any difference. Those fighters do not have the range to make those flights, also, once the war starts Malaya will need every plane . As to moving the HK units to the Philippines, where are the British units going to get ammunition? U.S. forces use .30-06 or some Philippine units .30-40Krag the British forces use .303.

 

[vetinari]

The Gurkhas have an almost mythical status with us Brits, I'm not sure the rest of the world understands that.

They have an almost mythical status amongst us, Aussies, too.

 

[Butchpfd]

^^^ US Admiral James Richardson was an ardent opponent of FDR's plan to move the heavies of the US Pacific fleet from the US West Coast to Pearl Harbor, to the point where he was sacked - to be replaced by Adm Husband Kimmel, who in turn was later to take the fall for the Navy's part in the Pearl Harbor disaster.

Both Richardson and Hart(in 1942) were excluded from combat commands, ostensibly because of age, but you can probably make some case for both Admirals had the temerity to prove the CIC catastrophically wrong.

though Hart was correct in his appraisals of the Far East situation He was scheduled to retire when his term as CIC Asiatic Fleet expired in July of 1942. Hart was 65 when relieved of command of the Asiatic Fleet when it was dissolved. After returning Stateside and a period of rest Hart rejoined the General Board, where he served until being appointed as a U.S. Senator. Prior to taking command of the Asiatic Fleet, Hart was President of the General Board, whose at that time was responsible for ship design and planning. That board was probably the most successful in USN History. the 1936-1939 Board gave the Navy the following classes of ships, Gato Class Submarines, Benson and Fletcher class Destroyers, Atlanta, Cleveland and Baltimore class Cruisers, South Dakota and Iowa class Battleships and Essex Class Carriers, to say nothing about the Service and Support ships.

 

[vetinari]

My late father had a similar story regarding rioting Chinese communists in Hong Kong.

A friend of mine served in Singapore post-war as part of ANZUK - the strategic reserve established there made up of Australian, New Zealand and UK forces. He related how a crowd of protesters arrived outside the barrack gates and started a riot, The riot squad arrived, made up of Ghurkas. They formed a line abreast with their shields raised. Their commander informed the rioters it was time to go home. When they refused he ordered his riot squad to draw batons and advance and advance they did. My friend was watching from the veranda of the Sergeants' Mess and he said they did not stop until the rioters were dispersed, they just marched over the top of them - literally!

 

[Driftless]

though Hart was correct in his appraisals of the Far East situation He was scheduled to retire when his term as CIC Asiatic Fleet expired in July of 1942. Hart was 65 when relieved of command of the Asiatic Fleet when it was dissolved. After returning Stateside and a period of rest Hart rejoined the General Board, where he served until being appointed as a U.S. Senator. Prior to taking command of the Asiatic Fleet, Hart was President of the General Board, whose at that time was responsible for ship design and planning. That board was probably the most successful in USN History. the 1936-1939 Board gave the Navy the following classes of ships, Gato Class Submarines, Benson and Fletcher class Destroyers, Atlanta, Cleveland and Baltimore class Cruisers, South Dakota and Iowa class Battleships and Essex Class Carriers, to say nothing about the Service and Support ships.

Richardson got appointed to one of the boards too, but there's something in the way both of those gentlemen were treated by FDR that has always struck me that they deserved better treatment. Almost a pettiness in his response. Mac, of course, was well connected on the Republican side of the aisle, so he got kid gloves treatment from the White House

 

[Butchpfd]

As of 13 December, Hart had to escort the Pensacola convoy, the CA Houston, CA Pensacola, Cl Boise, CL Marblehead, and 5 Destroyers (4 pipers) and the Gunboat Niagara. Only the Pensacola and Boise had very early radar, the Marblehead and destroyers were woefully under armed when it came to AAA. As of 9 December there would be no air coverage by the USAAF ; having been destroyed as a fighting force on 8 December. Sending that convoy on to the P.I. would have led to it's probable total loss along with the ground forces and planes on board.

 

[Butchpfd]

Richardson got appointed to one of the boards too, but there's something in the way both of those gentlemen were treated by FDR that has always struck me that they deserved better treatment. Almost a pettiness in his response. Mac, of course, was well connected on the Republican side of the aisle, so he got kid gloves treatment from the White House

Oh Hart and FDR had issues going back to when FDR was Asst Secretary of the Navy, and Hart was very critical, and rightfully so, of the Newport torpedo factory. The infamous torpedo mafia, which brought the USN the infamous MK XIII and MK XIV torpedoes.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

My father was in japan in '45-46 as part of the RN.
One of his anecdotes was travelling on a train, in the carriage reserved for occupation forces, when a number of japanese got into the carriage.
2 gurkhas who were also in the carriage stood up, and reached behind them.
The carriage cleared before they drew the kukris.

and

My late father had a similar story regarding rioting Chinese communists in Hong Kong.

Hi Dave_r_gilbert and Coulsdon Eagle, thank you for sharing that, I love hearing about personal stories. My dad was out in India and Burma from 1944 with the Royal navy. Trained as a torpedo man down near Portsmouth, was shipped out through the Med, and on arrival in India, told, we don't need anymore torpedosmen, we'll put you on landing craft, and so thats where he went.

I remember, as a kid dad showing me a Kukri he had, in a black leather scabbard, with the accompanying Karda and Chakmak. Quite where he got it from I've no idea, but it was hung on a wall as decoration for a while until mum had it taken down. What happened to it, I've no idea!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

As of 13 December, Hart had to escort the Pensacola convoy, the CA Houston, CA Pensacola, Cl Boise, CL Marblehead, and 5 Destroyers (4 pipers) and the Gunboat Niagara. Only the Pensacola and Boise had very early radar, the Marblehead and destroyers were woefully under armed when it came to AAA. As of 9 December there would be no air coverage by the USAAF ; having been destroyed as a fighting force on 8 December. Sending that convoy on to the P.I. would have led to it's probable total loss along with the ground forces and planes on board.

Thank you for this Butchpfd, can you point me to more detail on those radars if possible. That USS Boise, Brooklyn class is BIG, about equal to two Dido class Royal Navy light cruisers in firepower.