Malaya What If

[Merrick]

Interesting and a bit unexpected. We haven't had many updates from outside the Far East.
Perhaps TTL Gen Neame will avoid capture and be reassigned to Malaya in the wake of Sonnenblume?

 

[roachbeef]

pinnacle of his career had just been reached, it would be downhill all the way from here.

Ominous ....

 

[Derwent Water]

I think the post about North Africa is hopefully just background. Although due to the small improvements to Malaya's ability to defend itself, when Rommel gets frisky in Lybia it wouldn't surprise me to see some troups and material transferred or diverted to the active theatre at the expense of the far East. At the moment Malaya is a backwater at peace which is how London will treat it.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

On a slightly more serious note the Italian kit wasn't much good but considerably better than no kit at all. Hell even the captured M13/40's the British pressed temporarily into service look half decent compared to most Japanese armour and IOTL most of the loot was never used by the British.

I believe, historically, a small number (6-8) of captured Italian guns were sent to Malaya, and served with an ad hoc battery of 22 Indian Mountain Artillery Regt, to be used in an anti-tank role. These may have been either the 20mm Breda Model 35, or the 47mm Breda 47/32, made under licence from Bohler.

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

Interesting and a bit unexpected. We haven't had many updates from outside the Far East.
Perhaps TTL Gen Neame will avoid capture and be reassigned to Malaya in the wake of Sonnenblume?

This should all be historically correct, and to provide some context of the world events as my Malayan timeline unfolds. I do, however, try to write with a different perspective on that history, just to freshen things up. Gen Neame to Malaya eh! well I bet not many people would suggested him for Malaya!

 

[Derwent Water]

Interesting and a bit unexpected. We haven't had many updates from outside the Far East.
Perhaps TTL Gen Neame will avoid capture and be reassigned to Malaya in the wake of Sonnenblume?

I always thought Alan Cuningham would have been a good fit for Malaya especially if sent East after his successful East African campaign. The East African campaign being predominantly an infantry affair over difficult terrain on a shoe string. So similar to Malaya.

In many ways his difficultys against Rommel where due to the speed of mechanised warfare and Rommel being well Rommel!

 

[Fatboy Coxy]

I did consider having Cunningham as an alternative to Percival, if I'd convinced myself of the change. I have read that part of his poor performance in North Africa, was due to the fact that he was tired, in need of a rest, after the East African Campaign.

 

[Mark1878]

I did consider having Cunningham as an alternative to Percival, if I'd convinced myself of the change. I have read that part of his poor performance in North Africa, was due to the fact that he was tired, in need of a rest, after the East African Campaign.

Yes but a live NorthAfrica is much more stressful than training up Malaya

 

[173rd LRRP]

Perhaps Gott writes a nice letter of congratulations to Neame on his promotion, along with PS please send any spare Italian kit especially weapons out east!

On a slightly more serious note the Italian kit wasn't much good but considerably better than no kit at all. Hell even the captured M13/40's the British pressed temporarily into service look half decent compared to most Japanese armour and IOTL most of the loot was never used by the British.

Several hundred thousand Italian rifles will kit out a lot of troops

 

[HJ Tulp]

Perhaps Gott writes a nice letter of congratulations to Neame on his promotion, along with PS please send any spare Italian kit especially weapons out east!

On a slightly more serious note the Italian kit wasn't much good but considerably better than no kit at all. Hell even the captured M13/40's the British pressed temporarily into service look half decent compared to most Japanese armour and IOTL most of the loot was never used by the British.

I believe, historically, a small number (6-8) of captured Italian guns were sent to Malaya, and served with an ad hoc battery of 22 Indian Mountain Artillery Regt, to be used in an anti-tank role. These may have been either the 20mm Breda Model 35, or the 47mm Breda 47/32, made under licence from Bohler.

Several hundred thousand Italian rifles will kit out a lot of troops

Part of the captured Italian equipment was send to the DEI, without much succes I must add.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The problem with running captured gear such as Italian tanks, vehicles and Guns etc is that there is no proprietary ammunition or spare parts in the system

Its all very well running MAB 38s as the ammo was 9mm parabellum which the British had in the system (and had captured vast amounts of)

Tank and mg ammo - not so much

And when we look at when captured Italian tanks and artillery were used it did not end well

Far better to send something like the Covenanter - it might be crap but the parts and gun ammo were all available in the system

The manuals and gauges were also in English

 

[naraic]

My opinion on captured equipment is to use it in theater as much as possible and throw it out when you are done.

So if you can use it in North Africa great. You might capture spare parts and ammunition too and it doesn't need to be shipped.

Half the benefit of captured equipment is reducing the strain on logistics in the short run.

 

[CB13]

The problem with running captured gear such as Italian tanks, vehicles and Guns etc is that there is no proprietary ammunition or spare parts in the system

Its all very well running MAB 38s as the ammo was 9mm parabellum which the British had in the system (and had captured vast amounts of)

Tank and mg ammo - not so much

And when we look at when captured Italian tanks and artillery were used it did not end well

Far better to send something like the Covenanter - it might be crap but the parts and gun ammo were all available in the system

The manuals and gauges were also in English

Just to play devil's advocate.....

Assuming you were a strategically-minded UK military leader, and noticing that everywhere you were encountering the Italians, you were getting massive numbers of men surrendering and vast volumes of captured equipment, at the very least you might want to send inquiries to the USA to see how quickly they could ramp up a 6.5x52 Carcano ammunition line. Specifically, if focused on manufacturers of .25 Remington, they might be able to shift to Carcano production within weeks as the dimensions for .25 Remington is nearly identical to the 6.5x52 Carcano.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Just to play devil's advocate.....

Assuming you were a strategically-minded UK military leader, and noticing that everywhere you were encountering the Italians, you were getting massive numbers of men surrendering and vast volumes of captured equipment, at the very least you might want to send inquiries to the USA to see how quickly they could ramp up a 6.5x52 Carcano ammunition line. Specifically, if focused on manufacturers of .25 Remington, they might be able to shift to Carcano production within weeks as the dimensions for .25 Remington is nearly identical to the 6.5x52 Carcano.

You still have to then shift it half way across the world

Then add it to the established logistical system and also build it into the training system

I don't think rifles and Machine guns were an issue but it could make sense to equip 3rd partys such as 2nd line Greek units with it if they are already armed with proprietary Italian weapons.

But longer term you would want them to equip with British or American Weapons

So by all means in the short term use captured Italian weapons to equip 2nd line formations not in critical areas in the AOE that they were captured in i.e. North and East Africa

So definitely do not send them to other fronts such as Malaya

 

[Donald Reaver]

They would be good for partisans, they can resupply bullets from Italian patrols they ambush.

 

[CB13]

You still have to then shift it half way across the world

Then add it to the established logistical system and also build it into the training system

I don't think rifles and Machine guns were an issue but it could make sense to equip 3rd partys such as 2nd line Greek units with it if they are already armed with proprietary Italian weapons.

But longer term you would want them to equip with British or American Weapons

So by all means in the short term use captured Italian weapons to equip 2nd line formations not in critical areas in the AOE that they were captured in i.e. North and East Africa

So definitely do not send them to other fronts such as Malaya

I guess it all depends on how many rifles, how much ammunition and how urgent the need (risk of being attacked in combination with availability of preferred British or American alternative pattern rifles). My thinking is, if I can get 50,000 "free" rifles and a 5-10 million rounds of ammunition, I'm at least going to get 25,000 Malayan, Chinese or DEI locals through their basic training with enough ammunition in their ruck sacks to do constabulary or garrison duties, until those British or American pattern rifles do arrive (which might not be for a year). Bottom line is it may not be ideal, but any rifle with any ammunition is better than a pointy stick.

 

[173rd LRRP]

I guess it all depends on how many rifles, how much ammunition and how urgent the need (risk of being attacked in combination with availability of preferred British or American alternative pattern rifles). My thinking is, if I can get 50,000 "free" rifles and a 5-10 million rounds of ammunition, I'm at least going to get 25,000 Malayan, Chinese or DEI locals through their basic training with enough ammunition in their ruck sacks to do constabulary or garrison duties, until those British or American pattern rifles do arrive (which might not be for a year). Bottom line is it may not be ideal, but any rifle with any ammunition is better than a pointy stick.

The Carcano is a fairly decent rifle to 400 m with battle zero. The Imperial Japanese a navy bought 60,000 of them chambered fir 6.5 Arisaka. These would have been excellent if UK had decided to for Malay and ethnic Chinese regiments. Several hundred thousand rifles and several thousand adequate light machine guns would have been most helpful.

 

[Paul_Sussex]

I think calling the Breda Model 30 "adequate" is a little optimistic!

 

[Cryhavoc101]

The Carcano is a fairly decent rifle to 400 m with battle zero. The Imperial Japanese a navy bought 60,000 of them chambered fir 6.5 Arisaka. These would have been excellent if UK had decided to for Malay and ethnic Chinese regiments. Several hundred thousand rifles and several thousand adequate light machine guns would have been most helpful.

I guess it all depends on how many rifles, how much ammunition and how urgent the need (risk of being attacked in combination with availability of preferred British or American alternative pattern rifles). My thinking is, if I can get 50,000 "free" rifles and a 5-10 million rounds of ammunition, I'm at least going to get 25,000 Malayan, Chinese or DEI locals through their basic training with enough ammunition in their ruck sacks to do constabulary or garrison duties, until those British or American pattern rifles do arrive (which might not be for a year). Bottom line is it may not be ideal, but any rifle with any ammunition is better than a pointy stick.

I do get it

I mean the Germans used millions of captured rifles or rifles gained when Austria and Czechoslovakia was absorbed etc (I seem to recall 15 million?)

They also gained something like 1 million machine guns this way

For the weapons they gained lots of they produced manuals etc and for some weapons they even setup ammunition production

But was a shortage of rifles and Machine guns an actual issue for the British Empire in mid 1941?

I cannot help but feel that this is a cunning solution looking for a problem that does not exist

I could understand sending machine guns for static beach defences - that's a long East coast!

After all we see pictures of captured weapons equipping defences in France in 1944 (which of course I could not find any!)

 

[Mark1878]

I mean the Germans used millions of captured rifles or rifles gained when Austria and Czechoslovakia was absorbed etc (I seem to recall 15 million?)

They also gained something like 1 million machine guns this way

For the weapons they gained lots of they produced manuals etc and for some weapons they even setup ammunition production

Not the same at all. The Austrians and Czechs had the factories as well. So had the whole supply chain.

Also I think the Czechs used the German Mauser round so no issue with supplies of ammo.