List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

[The_Most_Happy]

Neither Wilhelm nor Phil would be her choice (or her father's), since both require the political situation to be identical to OTL. Wilhelm was more interested in marrying first Kristina/Dorothea of Denmark (daughters of Christian II), then when thwarted there, he married Jeanne of Navarre. Then when that marriage was set aside, he married an Austrian archduchess. All of which benefitted him in some way. In the 1530s. Kristina/Dorothea as heiresses to the "spotty rich kid with a cool car" that was Julich, Jeanne because it got him French backing against Karl V, hjis Habsburg wife because it made peace with Karl over Guelders. Until Anne of Cleves married into England, England has no "pull" on Imperial affairs.
Phil's not gonna marry her for the same reason.

Neither Henry nor Anne is going to let her marry outside of England. @desmirelle pointed out once that Anne should've sent Mary to Scotland wrapped in a bow. Not because James wasn't going to invade but rather to "buy him off". James is a royal, and so long as his mom is alive, he's unlikely to invade (not to mention, his dad did that and look what happened). He's Catholic. Scotland isn't overly powerful and it's allied with Anne's great love: France. Karl V can't object because while he might have wanted Mary for his brother-in-law, the duque de Beja (he planned to make them duke and duchess of Milan and his "viceroys" in Italy), he can't deny the opportunity of getting Scotland to ditch the Auld Alliance for a shiny new imperial one.
Will Karl try to get James to invade? Unlikely. Since at Anne's execution in 1536, Elizabeth was betrothed to Felipe II. Karl V was a pragmatist. He made peace with Henry astonishingly quickly after Katherine of Aragon's death. He told his ambassador to inform Mary that "the emperor will not go to war for you" (or essentially, I'm not getting involved). With a son for Henry-Anne (i.e. vindication), Mary's in a much tighter spot by 1536 than she was OTL. Her options are submit or get locked up as a traitor.
See @Space Oddity's TL Now Blooms the Tudor Rose for ideas

Marrying James V to Mary seems very "match to powder keg" to me, personally. I just can't see hardcore Catholic James, with a deep dislike for the English, marrying Henry's daughter from his 'legal' Catholic marriage and agreeing to just hang out up North while Henry 'marries' the Protestant Anne and raises Protestant heirs with her...

Maybe if Francis I found a way to really screw Scotland over, and Karl V was pushing for the match with James, and there were literally no French matches to be found. There would have to be some kind of concession regarding Mary's rights, I think. Maybe Henry and James could agree to her children being in line to the throne after any brothers she may have, as well as their issue both male and female? Anne would be pissed, of course

I did not know that Elizabeth and Philip II were engaged in 1536 - I've never read anything about it. I always thought Anne wanted a French marriage for her... if Elizabeth was engaged to Philip II, I can see Henry and Karl finding a marriage for Mary at the same time. Maybe the Duke of Beja thing could work out after all - maybe he and Mary would both have to sign away any claims to England, and swear to never pursue their claims?

Anne tried to marry Mary to her cousin, the earl of Surrey, but later changed her mind and persuaded Henry to let Surrey marry Frances de Vere. There was also talk in the early 1540s of Mary's marriage ot Karl V taking place or Henri II's marriage being set aside (due to childlessness), neither happened.

The question of when the son is born is important. After Henry's 1536 jousting accident, he can't have said to have been the most stable of people. He flew into a temper when Karl V refused the remarriage option and suggested his brother-in-law, the duque de Beja (IIRC), and felt the French had been playing with him when Henri II's annulment wasn't granted. If there's a duke of York born a year/eighteen months after Anne's son, maybe a duke of Gloucester/Somerset after that, by 1540, Mary staying unmarried looks odd

Let's say the first son is born in 1534, the second in 1535 or 1536, and the third some years after that (if at all).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

did not know that Elizabeth and Philip II were engaged in 1536 - I've never read anything about it.

It was part of the 1536 "reconciliation". However, Anne's execution stopped anything like a formal betrothal being made, although plans did continue off-and-on until 1540, When Henry was looking to marry Kristina of Denmark, Karl floated the idea of a "triple imperial match" - Mary to Beja, Liz to Felipe and Henry to Kristina or Edward to a Habsburg archduchess. In 1540 Karl definitively refused François I's offer of Marguerite de Valois as a second wife and suggested a betrothal between Margot and Felipe instead. Didn't take Liz out of the running though, since there was still consideration of a "Portuguese infante" for her.

if Elizabeth was engaged to Philip II, I can see Henry and Karl finding a marriage for Mary at the same time. Maybe the Duke of Beja thing could work out after all - maybe he and Mary would both have to sign away any claims to England, and swear to never pursue their claims?

They'd likely get invested with Milan instead of Felipe II - it was one of those oddball ideas that Karl had. Invest the adult Luiz with Milan and the imperial vicariate (OTL in Karl V's abdication/will, he asked Ferdinand I to grant the vicariate to Felipe II - not sure who had it between 1537 and 1556 - which Ferdinand rfused and granted it to the duke of Savoy instead). Milan is a far way from England (France and the Channel are in the way). And those type of renunciations usually included a clause to void all agreements (see the various Habsburg renunciations of Anne of Austria, Maria Teresa of Spain, Maria Manuela of Portugal, Isabel of Portugal, Emperor Joseph I's daughters etc).

Marrying James V to Mary seems very "match to powder keg" to me, personally. I just can't see hardcore Catholic James, with a deep dislike for the English, marrying Henry's daughter

Actually, his mom was trying to do this OTL around this time, so it's not quite as ASB as it sounds. That said, Henry and Anne having a son is going to give a lot of Catholics pause for thought. Will Karl continue supporting Katherine of Aragon in the event of a vindication of Anne? He made peace with Henry disturbingly quickly after Katherine's death (the famous Easter 1536 incident at the Greenwich Chapel Royal where Chapuys was "forced" to bow to Anne as she passed him). As I said, Karl was pragmatic. He had no desire to get involved in Henry's domestic squabbles. Anne has a son she's bullet-proof so long as the son lives (and no reason he shouldn't - Elizabeth was the healthiest of Henry's kids). For Karl to continue to support Katherine against her is stupid. He sows not only bad blood with Henry, he sows bad blood with Anne and the future king of England.

 

[isabella]

It was part of the 1536 "reconciliation". However, Anne's execution stopped anything like a formal betrothal being made, although plans did continue off-and-on until 1540, When Henry was looking to marry Kristina of Denmark, Karl floated the idea of a "triple imperial match" - Mary to Beja, Liz to Felipe and Henry to Kristina or Edward to a Habsburg archduchess. In 1540 Karl definitively refused François I's offer of Marguerite de Valois as a second wife and suggested a betrothal between Margot and Felipe instead. Didn't take Liz out of the running though, since there was still consideration of a "Portuguese infante" for her.


They'd likely get invested with Milan instead of Felipe II - it was one of those oddball ideas that Karl had. Invest the adult Luiz with Milan and the imperial vicariate (OTL in Karl V's abdication/will, he asked Ferdinand I to grant the vicariate to Felipe II - not sure who had it between 1537 and 1556 - which Ferdinand rfused and granted it to the duke of Savoy instead). Milan is a far way from England (France and the Channel are in the way). And those type of renunciations usually included a clause to void all agreements (see the various Habsburg renunciations of Anne of Austria, Maria Teresa of Spain, Maria Manuela of Portugal, Isabel of Portugal, Emperor Joseph I's daughters etc).



Actually, his mom was trying to do this OTL around this time, so it's not quite as ASB as it sounds. That said, Henry and Anne having a son is going to give a lot of Catholics pause for thought. Will Karl continue supporting Katherine of Aragon in the event of a vindication of Anne? He made peace with Henry disturbingly quickly after Katherine's death (the famous Easter 1536 incident at the Greenwich Chapel Royal where Chapuys was "forced" to bow to Anne as she passed him). As I said, Karl was pragmatic. He had no desire to get involved in Henry's domestic squabbles. Anne has a son she's bullet-proof so long as the son lives (and no reason he shouldn't - Elizabeth was the healthiest of Henry's kids). For Karl to continue to support Katherine against her is stupid. He sows not only bad blood with Henry, he sows bad blood with Anne and the future king of England.

A double Habsburg match for Anne Boleyn’s children here is not unlikely: Austrian Archduchess for Henry jr (as Ferdinand had a lot of girls in the right age group) and an on-off betrothal for Philip and Elizabeth (who will likely end with her as his second wife after Maria Manuela’s death). A boy with Elizabeth’s health would make Henry VIII the happiest King of Europe

 

[The_Most_Happy]

A double Habsburg match for Anne Boleyn’s children here is not unlikely: Austrian Archduchess for Henry jr (as Ferdinand had a lot of girls in the right age group) and an on-off betrothal for Philip and Elizabeth (who will likely end with her as his second wife after Maria Manuela’s death). A boy with Elizabeth’s health would make Henry VIII the happiest King of Europe

It was part of the 1536 "reconciliation". However, Anne's execution stopped anything like a formal betrothal being made, although plans did continue off-and-on until 1540, When Henry was looking to marry Kristina of Denmark, Karl floated the idea of a "triple imperial match" - Mary to Beja, Liz to Felipe and Henry to Kristina or Edward to a Habsburg archduchess. In 1540 Karl definitively refused François I's offer of Marguerite de Valois as a second wife and suggested a betrothal between Margot and Felipe instead. Didn't take Liz out of the running though, since there was still consideration of a "Portuguese infante" for her.

Actually, his mom was trying to do this OTL around this time, so it's not quite as ASB as it sounds. That said, Henry and Anne having a son is going to give a lot of Catholics pause for thought. Will Karl continue supporting Katherine of Aragon in the event of a vindication of Anne? He made peace with Henry disturbingly quickly after Katherine's death (the famous Easter 1536 incident at the Greenwich Chapel Royal where Chapuys was "forced" to bow to Anne as she passed him). As I said, Karl was pragmatic. He had no desire to get involved in Henry's domestic squabbles. Anne has a son she's bullet-proof so long as the son lives (and no reason he shouldn't - Elizabeth was the healthiest of Henry's kids). For Karl to continue to support Katherine against her is stupid. He sows not only bad blood with Henry, he sows bad blood with Anne and the future king of England.

I am going to happy scream because I have wanted a match between Elizabeth and Philip II *forever* but I never thought there was a plausible way to make it happen! THANK YOU GUYS!!!

I know Anne wanted a French match for her child(ren) OTL, but there's literally no available French princes until Francis II in 1544 - who could work for Anne and Henry's youngest daughter, who would be a few years older and could interject that 'Boleyn-Tudor' health into the Valois. The King of England, the Queen of France, and the Queen of Spain as siblings sounds like a hell of a timeline.

Hmmm, that's good to know about Margaret and James V. Could get the whole Mary, Queen of Scots issue out of the way (or just recreate it, given Mary's OTL fertility issues)... especially if the Catholics are all backing off, James won't really have a leg to stand on.

They'd likely get invested with Milan instead of Felipe II - it was one of those oddball ideas that Karl had. Invest the adult Luiz with Milan and the imperial vicariate (OTL in Karl V's abdication/will, he asked Ferdinand I to grant the vicariate to Felipe II - not sure who had it between 1537 and 1556 - which Ferdinand rfused and granted it to the duke of Savoy instead). Milan is a far way from England (France and the Channel are in the way). And those type of renunciations usually included a clause to void all agreements (see the various Habsburg renunciations of Anne of Austria, Maria Teresa of Spain, Maria Manuela of Portugal, Isabel of Portugal, Emperor Joseph I's daughters etc).

Not the worst marriage for Mary - a royal husband, a nice duchy to rule, a husband her mother would approve of who would allow her to practice her religion. Maybe she could get a surviving kid or two out of it (first cousins and all, especially with those Trastámara genes) and end up much happier than OTL. Even if she just has a surviving daughter, the girl could always marry back into the Portuguese / Habsburg fold and take the Duchy as her dowry.



So let's say Anne and Henry have five surviving children (my argument being that he was in good health until after his jousting accident and his eating issues after Jane Seymour's death):
1. Elizabeth (1533) marries Philip II of Spain
2. Edward (1534) marries ?
3. Henry / Arthur (1536) marries ?
4. George / Arthur / Edmund (1538) marries ?
5. Margaret (1541) marries ?

*I named the first son Edward, since it's the name Henry chose for his first surviving son OTL. For a second son, I'm considering Henry - but I can also see Henry VIII being superstitious about the whole 'second son named Henry' thing, as well as already having several sons named Henry. I could also see him picking Arthur as a 'magnanimous, look at what a good brother I am (btw I totally won)' choice. For the third son, there's Arthur again, if his elder brother isn't named Arthur. There's also George (for Saint George, and Anne's brother), or Edmund (for Henry's lost brother). For their second daughter, I chose Margaret since it's the name of Henry's grandmother as well as Anne's grandmother, in addition to Margaret of Austria and Margaret of Navarre, both of whom Anne served as a child and was close to. Maybe one of them could be persuaded to stand as Baby Margaret's godmother.

 

[isabella]

I am going to happy scream because I have wanted a match between Elizabeth and Philip II *forever* but I never thought there was a plausible way to make it happen! THANK YOU GUYS!!!

I know Anne wanted a French match for her child(ren) OTL, but there's literally no available French princes until Francis II in 1544 - who could work for Anne and Henry's youngest daughter, who would be a few years older and could interject that 'Boleyn-Tudor' health into the Valois. The King of England, the Queen of France, and the Queen of Spain as siblings sounds like a hell of a timeline.

Hmmm, that's good to know about Margaret and James V. Could get the whole Mary, Queen of Scots issue out of the way (or just recreate it, given Mary's OTL fertility issues)... especially if the Catholics are all backing off, James won't really have a leg to stand on.


Not the worst marriage for Mary - a royal husband, a nice duchy to rule, a husband her mother would approve of who would allow her to practice her religion. Maybe she could get a surviving kid or two out of it (first cousins and all, especially with those Trastámara genes) and end up much happier than OTL. Even if she just has a surviving daughter, the girl could always marry back into the Portuguese / Habsburg fold and take the Duchy as her dowry.



So let's say Anne and Henry have five surviving children (my argument being that he was in good health until after his jousting accident and his eating issues after Jane Seymour's death):
1. Elizabeth (1533) marries Philip II of Spain
2. Edward (1534) marries ?
3. Henry / Arthur (1536) marries ?
4. George / Arthur / Edmund (1538) marries ?
5. Margaret (1541) marries ?

*I named the first son Edward, since it's the name Henry chose for his first surviving son OTL. For a second son, I'm considering Henry - but I can also see Henry VIII being superstitious about the whole 'second son named Henry' thing, as well as already having several sons named Henry. I could also see him picking Arthur as a 'magnanimous, look at what a good brother I am (btw I totally won)' choice. For the third son, there's Arthur again, if his elder brother isn't named Arthur. There's also George (for Saint George, and Anne's brother), or Edmund (for Henry's lost brother). For their second daughter, I chose Margaret since it's the name of Henry's grandmother as well as Anne's grandmother, in addition to Margaret of Austria and Margaret of Navarre, both of whom Anne served as a child and was close to. Maybe one of them could be persuaded to stand as Baby Margaret's godmother.

I would say who a son of Anne, specially one born from her second pregnancy would still be an Henry NOT an Edward (as OTL Edward had a maternal uncle with the same name and that likely influenced a lot the choice). Also in 1537 Henry had lost two sons (by Catherine and Bessie) and two nephews (the sons of Mary and Charles) called after him, plus the miscarried boy of Anne Boleyn and likely had started to believe the name “cursed” for his own heir

 

[The_Most_Happy]

I would say who a son of Anne, specially one born from her second pregnancy would still be an Henry NOT an Edward (as OTL Edward had a maternal uncle with the same name and that likely influenced a lot the choice). Also in 1537 Henry had lost two sons (by Catherine and Bessie) and two nephews (the sons of Mary and Charles) called after him, plus the miscarried boy of Anne Boleyn and likely had started to believe the name “cursed” for his own heir

He did technically have a son named Henry (Fitzroy) in 1534, and he had already lost his son with Catherine and both of his nephews... but still, I see your point.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

or just recreate it, given Mary's OTL fertility issues

Mary's OTL fertility issues might not exist here. By the time she married Felipe II OTL, she had nearly thirty years of stress behind her (starting around the King's Great Matter), had to cope with Henry VIII's mood swings going from nearly threatening to chop her head off at one point, five different stepmoms (only one of which - Jane Seymour - AIUI actually liked her, dealing with her weird situation with Elizabeth (who she was actually pretty close to until Henry VIII died IIRC). It would wreak havoc with anyone's fertility. In 1534, she's only been dealing with that for a decade. And usually, at one stage removed (she was at Ludlow or Beaulieu until 1531 AFAIK).
The pope (Clement VII) only ruled on the validity of Henry and Katherine's marriage in March 1534. If Anne's son is born by then (doubtful, since Elizabeth is born in September 1533). However, by the time Clement dies in September 1534, things have changed, and in all likelihood, Anne is now the mother of a boy or very pregnant and soon to give birth to Prince Hal.

A dispatch from Chapuys to Charles V, dated 28th January, mentions Anne being pregnant and this is backed up by a letter from George Taylor to Lady Lisle, dated 7th April, in which Taylor writes “The Queen hath a goodly belly, praying our Lord to send us a prince.” Also, in July of that year, George, Lord Rochford, was sent to France to ask for a postponement of a meeting between Henry VIII and Francis I due to Anne “being so far gone with child she could not cross the sea with the King.” There is yet another mention of Anne’s pregnancy in a letter from Chapuys dated the 27th July. Also, Eric Ives writes of how there is evidence that Henry VIII ordered a silver cradle, decorated with precious stones and Tudor roses, from Cornelius Hayes, his goldsmith, in April 1534 and he would not have spent money on such a cradle if he was not sure that Anne was pregnant.
But what happened to this pregnancy? We just do not know. We have no reports of a stillbirth or miscarriage so perhaps it was a false pregnancy caused by stress and longing. Chapuys suggests that it may have been a false pregnancy in a letter dated 27th September 1534: “Since the King began to doubt whether his lady was enceinte or not, he has renewed and increased the love he formerly had for a beautiful damsel of the court.” However, Ives does not believe in the false pregnancy theory as he points out that Anne was not under any undue pressure at this time, having just given the King a baby girl and having every hope that she would conceive easily again. He believes that she miscarried as there is no record of Anne having taken to her chamber, so that rules out a stillbirth.

Now...his successor can't undo Clement VII's ruling (AFAIK), but things could go differently that cause Clement to dither or delay his ruling.

 

[The_Most_Happy]

Mary's OTL fertility issues might not exist here. By the time she married Felipe II OTL, she had nearly thirty years of stress behind her (starting around the King's Great Matter), had to cope with Henry VIII's mood swings going from nearly threatening to chop her head off at one point, five different stepmoms (only one of which - Jane Seymour - AIUI actually liked her, dealing with her weird situation with Elizabeth (who she was actually pretty close to until Henry VIII died IIRC). It would wreak havoc with anyone's fertility. In 1534, she's only been dealing with that for a decade. And usually, at one stage removed (she was at Ludlow or Beaulieu until 1531 AFAIK).

Very good point, and one I hadn't thought of. Aww, Mary's chances of a happy marriage are even better now, yay! She might not take after great-grandma Elizabeth Woodville, but she can have a few kids. Now I just need to figure out if she becomes the Queen of Scotland or the Duchess of Milan - still leaning towards Luis of Portugal personally, but we'll see.

The pope (Clement VII) only ruled on the validity of Henry and Katherine's marriage in March 1534. If Anne's son is born by then (doubtful, since Elizabeth is born in September 1533). However, by the time Clement dies in September 1534, things have changed, and in all likelihood, Anne is now the mother of a boy or very pregnant and soon to give birth to Prince Hal.

Now...his successor can't undo Clement VII's ruling (AFAIK), but things could go differently that cause Clement to dither or delay his ruling.

Oh, I can find things to keep Clement VII busy until he dies. Such as a nice little coronary over Karl V even considering supporting Henry and Anne's marriage, Martin Luther & Co., the general cluster that was Italy at the time. By the time his successor rolls around, he'll most likely be coming into a much different situation a la Henry and Anne. I don't think Papal approval would wind back the English reformation at that point though - most likely just smooth the way for their offspring to marry Catholics

... her weird situation with Elizabeth (who she was actually pretty close to until Henry VIII died IIRC).

Okay, is it ridiculous that I am kind of hoping to see this same closeness? Since Mary will technically be (in addition to her half sister) Elizabeth's aunt by marriage, I can see Elizabeth reaching out to her on the whole "how to be a Catholic queen" thing and maybe they become close through letters and stuff? Maybe I'm crazy, but hey it's my was-gonna-be-a-post-and-is-quickly-becoming-a-legit-timeline

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Since Mary will technically be (in addition to her half sister) Elizabeth's aunt by marriage,

Two years later, on the birth of Anne’s daughter, Elizabeth, Mary’s status was radically altered. Her rank was degraded from Princess to merely ‘the Lady Mary, the King’s daughter’, and her household was disbanded. Lady Salisbury offered to remain and maintain the Princess’ household at her own expense, but this offer was rejected – Henry believing that Lady Salisbury was stiffening his daughter’s disobedience. Mary was to join the new baby at Hatfield, as her attendant. Mary had no choice but to go, protesting bitterly that she was still her father’s only legitimate child and heir, although, she added (whether sarcastically or in a misguided effort to seem accommodating) that, since Henry acknowledged Elizabeth as his, she would call her ‘sister’ as she called Richmond ‘brother’.

So...not sure if Mary would be quite as close to Liz - since Mary's marriage to James V likely happens between 1535-1537 - whereas OTL after Anne was executed, Mary and Liz were sorta just regarded as a "package deal" and "shared" a household IIRC

 

[The_Most_Happy]

So...not sure if Mary would be quite as close to Liz - since Mary's marriage to James V likely happens between 1535-1537 - whereas OTL after Anne was executed, Mary and Liz were sorta just regarded as a "package deal" and "shared" a household IIRC

Oh yeah. That happened. Welp, I feel stupid.

Now we can just swing to the other end of that dynamic, feuding sisters married into the same family. Or just two feuding sisters married into Scotland and Spain.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Probably almost ASB, but it was just an idea I had @isabella @Vitruvius @JonasResende @VVD0D95 @Comte de Dordogne @Jan Olbracht :

Something different, the Farneses on their way to uniting central Italy:

Oddoardo I, Duke of Parma [1622-1646] (1612-1646) m: 1628 Margherita de Medici (1612-1679)

Ranuccio II, Duke of Parma [1646-1694] (1630-1694) m: 1660 Isabella d’Este (1635-1666)​

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Oddoardo II, Duke of Parma [1694-1710], Duke of Modena [1696[1]-1710] (1661-1710) m: 1690 Dorothea Sophie of Neuburg (1670-1748)​

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Alessandro II, Duke of Modena & Parma [1710-1730] (1691-1730) m: 1715 Elisabeth Franziska of the Palatinate-Neuburg [2] (1692-1719); 2m: 1718 Francisca Josefa of Portugal (1699-1766)​

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[1] Oddoardo, Hereditary Prince of Parma & Modena (1715-1727)​

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[1] Carlo Guglielmo, Grand Duke of Tuscany [from 1742], Duke of Modena & Parma [1737-1775] (1718-1775) m: 1737 Maria Luisa Teresa of Savoy [5] (1724-1779)​

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Carlo II Maria Cosimo, Grand Duke of Tuscany, Duke of Modena & Parma [1775-1814] (1740-1814)​

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Giovanni Francesco Battista (1744-1749)​

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Ferdinando Oddoardo (1745-1756)​

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Maria Luisa Teresa Ana (1747-1807)​

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[1] Anna Maria Dorotea (1719-1761) m: 1735 François III Étienne, Duke of Lorraine & Mantua (1707-1765)​

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Léopold II, Duke of Lorraine & Mantua (1738-1766) m:​

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Élisabeth Charlotte (1739-1744)​

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Marie Anne Françoise (1742-1772) m:​

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Charles Albert (1745-1746)​

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Marie Dorothée (1748-1782)​

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[2] Alessandro (1722-1770)​

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[2] Isabella (1723-1765) m:​

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Isabella (1692-1766) m: 1709 Carlo VI [3], King of Naples, Duke of Milan (1685-1740)​

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Leopoldo I Ferdinando, King of Naples, Duke of Milan [1740-1757] (1710-1757) m: 1731 Maria Ana Vittoria of Spain (1717-1759) [6]​

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Leopoldo Carlo, Duke of Calabria (1734-1745)​

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Maria Isabella (1739-1803)​

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Maria Anna (1741-1770)​

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Carlo VII Filippo, King of Naples, Duke of Milan [1757-1804] (1743-1804)​

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Maria Teresa (1713-1714)​

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Maria Anna (1715-1757) m: 1728 Louis XV, King of France (1710-1757[4])​

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Louis Charles, Dauphin de Viennois (1729-1744)​

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Philippe, Duc d’Anjou (1732-1736)​

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Charles X Emanuel Felix, King of France [1757-1791] (1734-1791) m: 1745​

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Louise Élisabeth (1735-1739)​

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Henriette Anne (1739-1742)​

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Charles Louis, Duc de Berri (1741-1753)​

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François Ignace, Duc d’Aquitaine (1744-1792)​

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Marie Adélaïde Victoire (1745-1796)​

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Maria Antonia (1717-1730)​

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Maria Eleonora (1718-1784) m: 1735 Ludovico Vittorio Emanuele, Duke of Savoy [5] (1721-1807)​

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Carlo Gennaro (1722-1730)​

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Ranuccio, Cardinal (1694-1756)​

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Eleonora Maddalena (1695-1766)​

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Maria Leopoldina (1698-1727)​

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Oddoardo, Prince of Parma (1702-1747)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1663)​

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Francesco, Cardinal (1664-1720)​

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Stillborn Son (1666)​

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Alessandro, Governor of Spanish Netherlands [1678-1682] (1635-1689)​

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Orazio (1636-1656)​

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Caterina (1637-1684)​

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Pietro (1639-1677)​

[1] Rinaldo d’Este dies of unspecified illness before the conception of his first child.

[2] daughter of Johann Wilhelm of Neuburg and Anna Maria Luisa de Medici

[3] OTL Karl VI who gets Austrian Italy spun off as a secundogeniture thanks to Emperor Joseph having a son. Karl VI and Joseph’s elder daughter, Maria Josepha, becomes Felipe V’s second wife.

[4] TTL Robert Damiens’ kills him

[5] children of Carlo Emanuele III of Savoy and Charlotte Aglaë d’Orléans

[6] eldest child of Felipe V and Maria Josepha of Austria.

 

[VVD0D95]

Probably almost ASB, but it was just an idea I had @isabella @Vitruvius @JonasResende @VVD0D95 @Comte de Dordogne @Jan Olbracht :

Something different, the Farneses on their way to uniting central Italy:

Oddoardo I, Duke of Parma [1622-1646] (1612-1646) m: 1628 Margherita de Medici (1612-1679)

Ranuccio II, Duke of Parma [1646-1694] (1630-1694) m: 1660 Isabella d’Este (1635-1666)​

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Oddoardo II, Duke of Parma [1694-1710], Duke of Modena [1696[1]-1710] (1661-1710) m: 1690 Dorothea Sophie of Neuburg (1670-1748)​

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Alessandro II, Duke of Modena & Parma [1710-1730] (1691-1730) m: 1715 Elisabeth Franziska of the Palatinate-Neuburg [2] (1692-1719); 2m: 1718 Francisca Josefa of Portugal (1699-1766)​

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[1] Oddoardo, Hereditary Prince of Parma & Modena (1715-1727)​

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[1] Carlo Guglielmo, Grand Duke of Tuscany [from 1742], Duke of Modena & Parma [1737-1775] (1718-1775) m: 1737 Maria Luisa Teresa of Savoy [5] (1724-1779)​

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Carlo II Maria Cosimo, Grand Duke of Tuscany, Duke of Modena & Parma [1775-1814] (1740-1814)​

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Giovanni Francesco Battista (1744-1749)​

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Ferdinando Oddoardo (1745-1756)​

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Maria Luisa Teresa Ana (1747-1807)​

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[1] Anna Maria Dorotea (1719-1761) m: 1735 François III Étienne, Duke of Lorraine & Mantua (1707-1765)​

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Léopold II, Duke of Lorraine & Mantua (1738-1766) m:​

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Élisabeth Charlotte (1739-1744)​

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Marie Anne Françoise (1742-1772) m:​

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Charles Albert (1745-1746)​

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Marie Dorothée (1748-1782)​

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[2] Alessandro (1722-1770)​

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[2] Isabella (1723-1765) m:​

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Isabella (1692-1766) m: 1709 Carlo VI [3], King of Naples, Duke of Milan (1685-1740)​

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Leopoldo I Ferdinando, King of Naples, Duke of Milan [1740-1757] (1710-1757) m: 1731 Maria Ana Vittoria of Spain (1717-1759) [6]​

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Leopoldo Carlo, Duke of Calabria (1734-1745)​

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Maria Isabella (1739-1803)​

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Maria Anna (1741-1770)​

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Carlo VII Filippo, King of Naples, Duke of Milan [1757-1804] (1743-1804)​

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Maria Teresa (1713-1714)​

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Maria Anna (1715-1757) m: 1728 Louis XV, King of France (1710-1757[4])​

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Louis Charles, Dauphin de Viennois (1729-1744)​

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Philippe, Duc d’Anjou (1732-1736)​

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Charles X Emanuel Felix, King of France [1757-1791] (1734-1791) m: 1745​

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Louise Élisabeth (1735-1739)​

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Henriette Anne (1739-1742)​

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Charles Louis, Duc de Berri (1741-1753)​

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François Ignace, Duc d’Aquitaine (1744-1792)​

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Marie Adélaïde Victoire (1745-1796)​

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Maria Antonia (1717-1730)​

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Maria Eleonora (1718-1784) m: 1735 Ludovico Vittorio Emanuele, Duke of Savoy [5] (1721-1807)​

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Carlo Gennaro (1722-1730)​

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Ranuccio, Cardinal (1694-1756)​

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Eleonora Maddalena (1695-1766)​

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Maria Leopoldina (1698-1727)​

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Oddoardo, Prince of Parma (1702-1747)​

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Stillborn Daughter (1663)​

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Francesco, Cardinal (1664-1720)​

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Stillborn Son (1666)​

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Alessandro, Governor of Spanish Netherlands [1678-1682] (1635-1689)​

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Orazio (1636-1656)​

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Caterina (1637-1684)​

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Pietro (1639-1677)​

[1] Rinaldo d’Este dies of unspecified illness before the conception of his first child.

[2] daughter of Johann Wilhelm of Neuburg and Anna Maria Luisa de Medici

[3] OTL Karl VI who gets Austrian Italy spun off as a secundogeniture thanks to Emperor Joseph having a son. Karl VI and Joseph’s elder daughter, Maria Josepha, becomes Felipe V’s second wife.

[4] TTL Robert Damiens’ kills him

[5] children of Carlo Emanuele III of Savoy and Charlotte Aglaë d’Orléans

[6] eldest child of Felipe V and Maria Josepha of Austria.

Farnese wank? I approve

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Farnese wank? I approve

Figure everyone's always like Medici or d'Este for 17th century Italy, why not give Farnese a chance to shine

 

[FalconHonour]

Related to my 'Queen Twice Over': Spoilers ahead, so don't read if you'd rather be surprised....!!!

Alençon dies earlier and it is Charles V who is captured during the Italian Wars, not Francis.

Marguerite d'Angouleme (1492-1549) m. 1509 Charles, Duke of Alençon (1489-1522) (a) m 1523 Charles V (1500-1550) b)

1b. Philip (1525-1542) -
2b. Isabella (1527-1528)
3b Juan (1528 - )
4b. Juana (1530 -)

Notes: Being held in a French prison weakens his health, so Charles dies a few years earlier than OTL. Phillip is killed besieging French-held Milan.

 

[RedKing]

POD: Catherine of Aragon's pregnancy in 1518, gives Henry a second daughter:


King Henry VIII (1491-1547) reigned from 1509, M. Catherine of Aragon (1485-1536), Anne Boleyn (1501-1536), Jane Seymour (1508-1537) and Catherine Parr (1512-1559), had issue:

With Catherine of Aragon:

1. Queen Mary I of England (1516-1562) reigned from 1554 to death, M. Charles V of the Holy Roman Empire, had no issue.
2. Queen Elizabeth I of England (1518-1580) reigned from 1562, M. Thomas Howard, 3rd Duke of Norfolk, had issue:

2 (A). King Thomas I of England (1555-1612) reigned from 1580 M. Princess Victoria of France (1556-1610)
2 (B). Princess Mary of England (1557-1620) M. King Sebastian I of Portugal (1555-1589)

With Anne Boleyn:

3. Princess Margaret (1534-1536)

With Jane Seymour:

N/A

With Catherine Parr:

4. King Henry IX (1539-1554) reigned from 1547, had no issue.
5. Princess Cecily (1542-1600), became a Nun.

 

[isabella]

Related to my 'Queen Twice Over': Spoilers ahead, so don't read if you'd rather be surprised....!!!

Alençon dies earlier and it is Charles V who is captured during the Italian Wars, not Francis.

Marguerite d'Angouleme (1492-1549) m. 1509 Charles, Duke of Alençon (1489-1522) (a) m 1523 Charles V (1500-1550) b)

1b. Philip (1525-1542) -
2b. Isabella (1527-1528)
3b Juan (1528 - )
4b. Juana (1530 -)

Notes: Being held in a French prison weakens his health, so Charles dies a few years earlier than OTL. Phillip is killed besieging French-held Milan.

I fear who Marguerite is already too old for remarrying to Charles at this point. Also is in Francis‘ own interest who Charles had heirs (or Ferdinand will inherit everything and Francis had no way to know how many sons he will have). Eleanor was younger, had children by her first husband and Francis had already secured the succession with three sons at that point so that will not mirror OTL at all (and will be much harsher than the OTL match of Francis to Eleanor)

 

[FalconHonour]

I fear who Marguerite is already too old for remarrying to Charles at this point. Also is in Francis‘ own interest who Charles had heirs (or Ferdinand will inherit everything and Francis had no way to know how many sons he will have). Eleanor was younger, had children by her first husband and Francis had already secured the succession with three sons at that point so that will not mirror OTL at all (and will be much harsher than the OTL match of Francis to Eleanor)

Well, Marguerite had children up to 1530, OTL, so heirs won't be a problem. But quite frankly, I just wanted to play with a Charles/Marguerite match. They'd either rule the world or kill each other. I'm not sure which...

 

[RedKing]

They'd either rule the world or kill each other

That is hilarious. Imagine if they choose the last one, I could see later comedians/historians making the joke "Charles and Marguerite instead of ruling the world together, they killed each other!".

 

[isabella]

Well, Marguerite had children up to 1530, OTL, so heirs won't be a problem. But quite frankly, I just wanted to play with a Charles/Marguerite match. They'd either rule the world or kill each other. I'm not sure which...

She is 8 years older than him, that is the problem. For getting that match you needed to free her much earlier. Also for Francis marrying his daughter or his sister to Charles do not made any difference. A match between Marguerite and Charles would be plausible at the latest in 1518 or 1519

 

[FalconHonour]

She is 8 years older than him, that is the problem. For getting that match you needed to free her much earlier. Also for Francis marrying his daughter or his sister to Charles do not made any difference. A match between Marguerite and Charles would be plausible at the latest in 1518 or 1519

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. You're the one who pointed out that Eleanor of Aquitaine was 11 years older than Henry II when I was having cold feet about marrying young François to Renee of Brittany. I think an 8 year age gap is doable. Not ideal, but doable....