Yeah I defo see a colony like that being something that's very plausible, but I defo don't think the colony could be a long term thing. I don't think anyone in ittl is thinking of the long term tho...
l'Antarctique: A French Brazil TL
- Thread starter Kurd Gossemer
- Start date
Most settlers in the Thirteen Colonies were British, even today nearly half of all European ancestry in the U.S. (and 30% overall) is from the British Isles.
Yes but it will take some time, especially with the ongoing Dutch Revolt and skirmishes with the Ottomans in the Mediterranean
Hey a pathway to India is a pathway to India. Plus it's not like the Swedes have a Crystal Ball to see into the future so they can make The Correct Choices, for now getting into the fur trade(especially useful for selling in cold Europe), the sugar and slave trade combo as well as India seems like a great idea that every one of the big boys is doing and that more than pays for itself, of course they'll be able to deal with the complications from it... Or not
hmm true. I was thinking of the northern regions like Minnesota where it was majority German.
Demographics of Minnesota - Wikipedia
Yeah that's true. I agree with ppl saying that its not sustainable, but I defo understand why they're doing this in the first place. They may lose out at the end, but hey its not like they know what'll happen in the future.
I'd wager the fledgling Swedish colonial empire is in a very precarious position - they're risking antagonizing the Portuguese by setting up shop in South Africa and breaking into Asia, their rivalry with Denmark is unresolved, and they've made an enemy of Spain by seizing the island of Santiago. All three powers have colonial possessions relatively close to Sweden's and can therefore probably be easily enticed into a three-pronged anti-Swedish alliance. The Swedes have also also ruined their friendship with Poland-Lithuania by abandoning them for a separate treaty with Russia in the Livonian War. Their best bet is to make sure and stay on friendly terms with Russia, figure out a peaceful Scandinavian arrangement with Denmark (or subdue them), maybe make allies out of England, the Netherlands, and France, and refrain from any further toe-stepping in regards to Spain and Portugal.
Indeed, at least in the Caribbean the Swedes can count on English protection(somewhat) given they don't want to be left alone on a Spanish lake and France is cordial with them enough that they can use Brazil for resupplying but little else, currently they have their luck the Danes are both busy with rebuilding their finances as well as looking towards the Netherlands and especially Northern Germany and both the Polish and Russians are licking their wounds from the Livonian War while both Spain and Portugal have their own problems to deal with but expect the latter to not be pleased at all when they find out Sweden's there, especially given it's someone like Sebastian who has something like the inquisition in Ceylon and Malaca running things in his colonies.
That will have to be the topic for my next European update when it does come out.
Tbf I wonder what will the Dutch's role be in this era ittl. Would they be part of the slave trade (they can supply slaves to the French considering that the Portuguese may not want to do so) and the Dutch having a bunch of African colonies would make sense, with them controlling land around the west coast of Africa.
Also what'll happen to India? I defo hope that we get a split India and we get a Dravidian country in the south that's propped up by European powers. Hell they can have like Hinduism with significant amounts of Christian influence or something like that.
Also what'll happen to India? I defo hope that we get a split India and we get a Dravidian country in the south that's propped up by European powers. Hell they can have like Hinduism with significant amounts of Christian influence or something like that.
Dutch will have their place in the world but they won't be as relevant as they were like OTL for a number of reasons I can't say for spoiler reasons as well as some that have already happened(like Sebastian not dying meaning that his kingdom stays independent and able to hold on to the East Indies better).
India is another area I'm debating on doing, I do not have much knowledge on it like I do with Brazil or even Europe but I will try and do my best in what I imagine could be a natural evolution for the continent while still learning some basics so as to have an idea on what can change.
Hmm that makes sense. After all, they are part of the network that connects the inland cities of Germany to the rest of the north sea. Maybe we have Dutch natuonalism be less powerful than otl and have them think of themselves as Low Germans?
I defo understand why you wouldn't wanna do it then, but it'll be cool if things go different in India ittl. After all, France was a major player otl. Britain taking the north would be interesting...
For ideas on India, just PM @Lusitania, @Ambassador Huntsman, or @RexSueciae--they might have some ideas...
Good TL so far, BTW...
Good TL so far, BTW...
I think that in the same way as in otl, not all colonies will survive in the long run. South Africa was Dutch and then became English, for example. At the moment the Swedes have a port in the region. We now have to see and wait if they will be able to hold the port or not.
Well we will have several wild cards in the future like the Dutch. Apart from the heavyweights like France, Portugal, Spain and England (and in the future Holland depending on how they do in the next 50 years) the rest have a much harder time securing the colonies. But even so we have many variables to ensure that certain things will work out like in otl (things like unions of crowns, revolts and wars among other factors).
Not unlike the attempts at colonization by the Scandinavian powers in the OTL
Yes that's true, but it's not like these three powers like each other. Portugal and Spain have a better relationship due to their history, but even so it's not like they love each other. Spain has several enemies (from the English and French to the Ottomans) and Sweden in OTL became an ally of the French during its heyday, so asking for protection from France could be a way for the Swedish colony empire to survive. Denmark has enemies in its south with the German kingdoms of the north, in addition to possible disputes with England in the future.If the Swedish empire survives it will either be smart diplomacy or they will get stronger in the coming decades.
I have the impression that Poland is going to have a worse life than at OTL. But maybe I'm wrong and a king in the future will be able to break the strength of the Polish nobility.
It's a good tactic, with the conquest of Denmark probably being the best idea (giving them more population and better access to the Atlantic.). They have to practice realpolitik basically. This will also depend on whether they will have as many soldier kings as in OTL.
I think they are going to be the biggest wild card. I see an alliance with France as quite possible, especially if they have a division of spheres of power in the agreement (France, as always, wants to reach the Rhine river and the region they want loses much of its value with the destruction made by spain compared to the region that is revolting). Many of the products that generated wealth for the ITTL netherlands are in the hands of the French. An alliance with England or trying to stay neutral and playing the powers against each other is also possible. In otl, the Dutch and Portuguese were allies until the union with the Spaniards. With the Dutch becoming extremely rich having a monopoly on the sale of Portuguese sugar (something they do not have in ITTL. In OTL the sugar trade boosted the economy of Portugal and contributed to the upsurge of the Dutch market. Despite the Dutch having other economic areas such as a strong textile industry). Then they can try to attack France, Portugal, England, Spain. one of the Scandinavian powers or have a different way of acting.
That I don't know, India can be conquered by a single power, be divided between several powers or have several puppet kingdoms.
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Some of these are accurate to an extent of what I have planned.
For the Dutch, just because they're independent doesn't mean they can't still be bossed around by other nations, especially those with bigger populations and who can strike into their territory...
Poland won't completely be carved up like OTL but they will definitely go through some rough times, especially if Denmark and Russia have anything to say about it.
Sweden is indeed in a precarious position given most of their neighbors hate them and all of them have territorial ambitions against them(including Russia in which they're at peace with) not to mention the start of a possible rivalry with Portugal over trade routes, but so far all their rivals are busy with something: Denmark is looking towards Northern Germany, Poland is rebuilding itself in the hopes of firing against the Russians, Russia is looking towards the Crimea Khanate and Portugal is mainly looking towards paying off their debts as well as dealing with the unrest in their Far East colonies(aka Indonesia) alongside them not being trusting of Spain(who's itself busy patrolling the Med against Ottomans and Barbary ships as well as dealing with the Dutch Revolt), so the Swedes will try finding tier footing again in the diplomatic front so we'll see how that plays out.
This is true of nations like France, but nations like Portugal and Sweden for example do not have these advantages. Even though the Netherlands is weaker due to the loss of the sugar monopoly and less protest migration, the region is still very rich and industrialized. So they will be a strong state, with a great naval tradition and a very hard region to invade. Especially in the next century when they are more stable. The advantage of the Dutch is not manpower. After all, the Dutch Republic was a small country in terms of size and population (and even at its height the Dutch army was never comparable to the likes of the Spanish or France).
The Dutch power came from the creation of a capitalist system, a educated and (+-) homogeneous population, and large cities/ports allowed the Dutch to become a Great Power ate the sea (in terms of trading and naval force), and political influence in Europe (de manner is similar to Portugal in the 16th century). Managing to overshadowed England many times during its prime. But it lasted a short time in my opinion, already showing a decadence in 1720. Specially due to the Dutch having put William III on the throne of England (making England the place where many Dutch merchant groups moved to).
sad poland
Time is a friend of the Swedes, the longer the peace lasts the stronger they will be
True but remember that the Dutch won't have their easy time like they did OTL when moving against the Portuguese possessions, not to mention that already France is building up it's own large merchant and capitalist class thanks to Brazil as well as religious tolerance so they have competitors in that front, not to mention nations like England, Sweden and Denmark are moving into the colonial game as well and even Spain with it's troubles still has an massive empire that they can defend relatively well.
Indeed, Sweden needs all the time they can get and whether they use it well or not is up to them.
Yes, life will be more difficult for the Dutch. With the nation having a weaker economy in addition to more competitors in the colonial question (although Denmark and Sweden are not on the scale of the other powers). This however does not make the Dutch any less dangerous or resilient. Many groups tried to conquer the region and failed so I think it's a mistake to underestimate the Dutch. They may fail in the long run, but they will still be a nasty beast to fight.
yep