Kingdom-Building: A Valois-Bourgogne TL

Should I create a smallish chapter dedicated to the normal life of Burgundy or the Burgundian Court?


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Without the emperor, the Pope would need to bestow a crown. The Pope in the 15th century tried to give a crown to Lithuania, for instance. But he can't bestow a crown that already exists (Burgundy / Arles is long dormant, but it still technically exists). Burgundy is tricky because Arles was based in the south around Provence, so implies claims there. Lotharingia implies claims from the Low Countries down to Savoy. I know some have talked about using another kingdom, such as Frisia, but IMO it lacks the ooomph of a Kingdom of Burgundy.

I know Maximilian had plans to revive Austrasia as a kingdom (Burgundy + Austria) but the electors opposed him. Another plan was to use the Franche-Comté to create a kingdom... it was technically the Free County of Burgundy, so perhaps that helps a little...
 
Without the emperor, the Pope would need to bestow a crown. The Pope in the 15th century tried to give a crown to Lithuania, for instance. But he can't bestow a crown that already exists (Burgundy / Arles is long dormant, but it still technically exists). Burgundy is tricky because Arles was based in the south around Provence, so implies claims there. Lotharingia implies claims from the Low Countries down to Savoy. I know some have talked about using another kingdom, such as Frisia, but IMO it lacks the ooomph of a Kingdom of Burgundy.

I know Maximilian had plans to revive Austrasia as a kingdom (Burgundy + Austria) but the electors opposed him. Another plan was to use the Franche-Comté to create a kingdom... it was technically the Free County of Burgundy, so perhaps that helps a little...
I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Prussian line of King in Burgundy. This thing would only be recognized by France through the regency of Anne of Beaujeu with papal approval ofc. But this is a long shot ngl.
I agree that it is near impossible to have a Kingdom of Arles or Lotharingia. Frisia is downright near impossible, The Holy Roman Emperor conquered the land and made it a lordship/duchy not a Kingdom so no.
 
I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Prussian line of King in Burgundy. This thing would only be recognized by France through the regency of Anne of Beaujeu with papal approval ofc. But this is a long shot ngl.
I agree that it is near impossible to have a Kingdom of Arles or Lotharingia. Frisia is downright near impossible, The Holy Roman Emperor conquered the land and made it a lordship/duchy not a Kingdom so no.
Well, the King in Prussia still had Imperial approval, which is the issue. The legal fiction was that the Hohenzollerns were sovereign only in their lands that lay outside the empire (Duchy of Prussia). Unfortunately for the Burgundians, their holdings lay within the empire. I suppose King in Burgundy could apply to the Duchy of Burgundy within France, but that's a quick way to piss France off. The imperial party c. 1700 was also much weaker than c. 1460-80.
 
Free Duke of Burgundy? Cause at the end of this thing, Burgundy (the French Duchy) will be completely independent LOL. I find it very difficult to have King in Burgundy as it applies to France perhaps a treaty when France is under the regency of Anne of Beaujeu?
 
Free Duke of Burgundy? Cause at the end of this thing, Burgundy (the French Duchy) will be completely independent LOL. I find it very difficult to have King in Burgundy as it applies to France perhaps a treaty when France is under the regency of Anne of Beaujeu?
Well, when you mean the Duke of Burgundy is free, do you mean their holdings in the north or plus the former Duchy? You may have some more room to manuver, but Burgundy will need to score enough of a victory to end French vassalage. It's worth keeping in mind that it took Charles V until the 1520s/1530s to formally pull Flanders and some other fiefs out of French influence where he wasn't paying homage for them.
 
I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Prussian line of King in Burgundy. This thing would only be recognized by France through the regency of Anne of Beaujeu with papal approval ofc. But this is a long shot ngl.
I agree that it is near impossible to have a Kingdom of Arles or Lotharingia. Frisia is downright near impossible, The Holy Roman Emperor conquered the land and made it a lordship/duchy not a Kingdom so no.
Pretty ASB. The only way in which the Burgundians can get a Crown is from the Emperor
 
I thought so too. Oh well, I'll figure something out.
The only realistic crown who Charles the Bold‘s heirs can get without involving the Emperor is the French one… if Nicholas of Anjou and Charles of Anjou are to die childless as OTL only Dauphin Charles, Louis d’Orleans and Charles d’Angouleme are between the Burgundian male line and the crown of France and having all them die without sons is not too complicate…
 
The only realistic crown who Charles the Bold‘s heirs can get without involving the Emperor is the French one… if Nicholas of Anjou and Charles of Anjou are to die childless as OTL only Dauphin Charles, Louis d’Orleans and Charles d’Angouleme are between the Burgundian male line and the crown of France and having all them die without sons is not too complicate…
I can't have that happen cause I was gunning for a Habsburg France. Somehow through some very interesting plot. There will be a war for that throne and Valois-Bourgogne, will be just Bourgogne.
 
Pretty ASB. The only way in which the Burgundians can get a Crown is from the Emperor


I totally agree with you, the only other way would be the Papacy, but I doubt that in Rome they want to anger the Emperor ( legally the Italian sovereign and one of the main defenders of the region, in case of French aggression ) for a state that then becomes heretical and a dangerous aggressor in the Italian wars, furthermore Lotharingia carried just the small problem that originally also included royal Italy, therefore it would cause important friction with all the states of Northern Italy ( except Venice )
 
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Chapter 10.1 The reincarnation of Isabella
"If you want to look at how Burgundy expanded under Charles the Careful, you would do well to ask Margaret of York. She did all the work, he just rode a horse and got a sword."

December 17, 1471, Aire-sur-la-lys, Artois, Burgundy

"Grandmother." Philip called, as Isabella was resting by her side. Margaret and Charles were both in sorrow. Isabella has retired 7 years ago after the betrayal of Paris but now she was breathing her last breaths. Philip continued to hug her but he did not cry. "Do you have to leave us too?" Isabella ruffled his hair, "The lord has called for me to return, to Philip and my friends." Philip only nodded without even another word. Isabella has been raising him for the better part of 7 years. Margaret may have lit the fire of his passions and talents but she grew and nurtured those talents. She taught him how to hunt and live off the land, cook various dishes from the chefs in the court, and his new favourite language: Portuguese. Philip closed his eyes as Isabella continued to run her hand through his hair. "Grandson, it's ok, your parents are still going to be here." Philip only nodded. Isabella looked at Margaret and Charles, she smiled more, "You two no longer have an excuse to neglect him you know?" Charles and Margaret didn't laugh at her joke, only continued crying. "Be strong for Philip, and Baby John, I do hope for a granddaughter you know?" Isabella nodded to Margaret. Charles was crying hard, the one person who was with him the whole time, his mother Isabella of Portugal was about to die. Philip didn't seem to care about the conversation as he continued to hold Isabella.

Isabella closed her eyes as she breathed her last. Charles and Margaret continued to cry over her death but Philip was distant. He didn't say a word throughout the funeral. He only asked that he be excused from his studies and hobbies which Charles easily granted. Philip only walked around the forest and came to her tomb. Charles and Margaret didn't know what Philip was doing but the world wouldn't stop moving with her death. Two years ago, Alsace and Further Austria was mortgaged and while he was trying to renegotiate it into a sale he was hitting a roadblock but with the amount of money he had, he formed an alliance with the Savoyards, against the Swiss in order to protect them while also trying to leverage any time of disunity within the confederation to weaken them. The weakening of Mulhouse, and Basel through usage of money and trade has earned the ire of Bern but Charles was incredibly patient, ensuring that Bern had no excuse to invade. He also continued to fund Sigismund in his war against the Swiss for Konstanz and Eastern Switzerland. He needed the sale to be absolute and it would set in that Upper Alsace and Bresigau was completely Burgundian not bought by Burgundy.

North of what Charles was doing Margaret was manipulating strings in Lorraine, ever since the betrayal of Paris. Burgundy was playing a very long game to gain Lorraine through bribery, espionage and trade under Charles. This was accelerated when Margaret became duchess as now various roads were constructed between Burgundy and the Burgundian Netherlands. This made Lorraine's trade completely reliant on Burgundy's goodwill. This was still given after the Betrayal of Paris as the two houses of Valois-Bourgogne and Valois-Anjou saw a mutual enemy in Louis XI of France. John II of Lorraine believed that if he managed to gain Aragon, he would willing give up Lorraine in exchange for that Burgundian Support needed but his early death when he was in Aragon now left Lorraine in an even weaker position. Nicholas of Lorraine was surrounded by pro-Burgundian advisors and like his father, dreamed of the Kingdom of Aragon. Rene of Anjou, now ever the wiser began to view Charles with suspicion but with his armies not being used and just using cash, connections and trade to influence Lorraine. Rene could do nothing except watch it slip away.

Charles looked around the city of Liege, it has only recently rebelled against Louis of Bourbon, his handpicked candidate but his armies crushed the rebellion. He continued to squeeze Liege, forcing the sale of the county of Loon to the Burgundians, but he relaxed some measures against the people of Liege. the amount of wealth he had, he was investing quite wisely. Liege has already lost quite a few privileges in the rebellion of 1468, but not in 1469. The prince-bishopric was a Burgundian puppet and the lands would eventually fall under the Burgundian Netherlands. Charles smiled, it seems his patience has worked. He used to be so bold and so rash in his actions but now he enjoyed and relished in the patience that he learned, the careful planning of Upper Alsace and Lorraine would ensure he would gain them eventually, while he continued feverishly reforming the army. His spies and intelligence told him how the battles went in France, England, and Switzerland. He was wisely investing into improving his armies. He was the richest man in the world, he used to flaunt his wealth but now he was merely investing it and it was paying off. The legendary victories of his brother in law would give him the opportunity of pushing John with Elizabeth. Elizabeth of England was the eldest daughter of the king of England, if he got that marriage for his son. He would gain a Burgundian on the English throne if he was incredibly lucky, if he doesn't he'll merely strengthen the alliance between Burgundy and England. He smiled, he was on the top of the world by just sitting still, "No wonder, Louis called me an idiot for rushing into battle. If I looked at myself back then, I would call myself rash too." Charles remarked.

Margaret was in labour again as Philip watched on, holding her hand. "Mother, it is going to be ok." Charles held her other hand allowing her to squeeze it tightly. Margaret screamed as she began to give birth. The nurses began to rush forward taking care of the baby while Philip did nothing, Charles held her hand and kissed her forehead. "Margaret, you are alright." Philip excused himself, and went into another room. Margaret and Charles spoke words of comfort and joy. The nurse holding the newborn child spoke to Philip. "It's a girl, she's quite strong though." Philip smiled, "May I hold her?" Philip held and rocked her softly. The little girl held out her hand and snatched his finger. Philip weakened, as he reentered the room to the two of them. "Mother, Father. You have a daughter." Margaret smiled as Philip gave her to her. "Isabella, after your mother and grandmother. She will be named Isabella." Charles only smiled, "She will take after them both." The three continued to speak about what to do but no one noticed the one tear that fell from Philip when Isabella was named.

Teaser: Louis watched baby Charles walk around. "He will be raised by me in Paris." He muttered to himself.
 
Character Analysis #5
Isabella of Portugal:
I have neglected her and didn't give her story. I don't have an excuse. She is someone who was a patron of the arts but also someone quite involved in politics. She wasn't extravagant like her husband or her son. She was sent to Burgundy quite late in her life, but she enjoyed her life there. Philip was completely unfaithful to her but he was quite generous to her. Maybe I should have written a prequel of her and Philip. Better to give a better story.

I wanted her story to bridge Margaret and Philip. I just didn't have the time to write to get that change. So I rushed the entire thing in one chapter. Oh well, but the point of it was to warm Philip to Margaret. Which is going to work.

She was going to die as well, but her impact on Philip and her "reincarnation" as Philip's little sister will heal his heart.
 
Character Study #18
Charles the Careful: He's learning, his character arc is here :D He learned the value of patience in ruling Burgundy :D
Margaret of York: She's becoming a true duchess. She finally is playing the games. Obviously when she becomes duchess dowager there'll be more stuff for her to do but for now this is a good start.
Philip, Count of Charolais: Going heavy with the emo, another Isabella died, and he isn't saying anything at all. Not even processing loss properly anymore, hopefully Isabella and John will help him.
Isabella of Burgundy: YESSSSSS, I finally brought Isabella into the story. Of course I have no clue on what to do with her but she is special in my eyes. :D
 
When the Italian wars happen, you could have the pope make Burgandy a kingdom in thanks for defeating the "french menace"
 
On the one hand, I'm tempted to rewrite this TL in order to give it more accuracy and depth but on the other hand, I feel like it's a bad idea Xd what do y'all think
 
Chapter 10.2 A dauphin over a queen
"When Charlotte of Savoy died, all the children of hers agreed to build a magnificent tomb for her, and yet her children's futures would bring her the most pain."

September 5, 1472, Paris, France.

Louis sat in his throne, speaking to his counsellors and subjects regarding daily governance issues of France itself. The disaster of the Lancastrians have benefited the Burgundians significantly. He sighed into his chair, his meddling in Brittany, his war against Aragon, heck even his interests in Anjou and Lorraine. All of them have succeeded but Burgundy, only Burgundy is out of his grasp. He continued to think over it. The succession was secure for Burgundy, Charles had two heirs, it would be divine favour if both of them were dead, apparently, he also had a daughter as well so three it could count. He looked at Charlotte, his wife. Baby Charles was currently jumping on her lap, it has been two years since he was born, he was already planning his marriage. This time to that Burgundian daughter. Obviously Charles opposed this vehemently, but he thought perhaps war would change his mind.

Charlotte watched baby Charles walk around her. She smiled brightly as Anne began to play with Charles. Charlotte was enjoying her time as queen, thanks to her taking a larger role in government and court, Louis now acknowledged and respected her as a queen. “Perhaps we are in love?” She wondered in thought. Louis watched on as Anne and Charles continued to play with each other. “He will be raised in Paris with me. A dauphin must be taught and raised well.” Louis muttered to himself.

Louis walked into the room with his wife and their children all in smiles. “Charlotte, I will be raising Charles seperately. He is the dauphin now, I have to teach him what I know.” Charlotte looked on in anger, while Anne covered Charles’ ears. “Are you telling me we can not raise our son together? That I am not a good enough parent for them?” Charlotte yelled. Anne realizing what was happening began to scurry Joan and Charles away from the scene. Both parents didn’t even notice. “There are certain things, that have to be taught from father to son. Charlotte please try to understand.” Louis replied, “I AM THE QUEEN OF FRANCE. I have played the political game as much as you. I have endured exile with you in Burgundy. Watched and helped you climb further in Paris. Do tell me, what lessons do you have to teach OUR SON? That I can not teach myself or jointly with you?” Charlotte yelled back in anger. “You and I both know that I play politics very differently and better than you.” Louis continued in a calm dead manner. “And what has that gotten you? Your gamble with England failed, I lost Margaret my only friend from England. You have only centralized the kingdom but left Burgundy free to roam. YOU BARELY WON AGAINST ARAGON. CHARLES WOULD HAVE TAUGHT OUR SON MORE THAN YOU. THE ONLY THING YOU WILL TEACH OUR SON IS TO BE UNFAITHFUL LIKE YOU ARE TO ME!” Charlotte screamed letting out all of her anger and rage against Louis. “How could he do this to me? Shutting me out again?” She thought.

Louis coldly replied, “My son must be taught by myself, I will teach him the duties of kingship as we have agreed back then. I’m sending you away to Amboise, as I should have done.” Louis thought this would be for the best, after all, Charlotte would not approve of his ways of ruling. Charlotte raged and continued to scream, while Anne who has long placed Charles and Joan into a separate room listened to the remarks Louis made. She was being sent to Amboise, she was being separated from Charles. One tear dropped from her eye. Louis left and immediately Anne rushed to her sobbing mother pulling her into a hug. She tried her best to comfort her but Charlotte was unresponsive.

Charlotte looked at Anne with watery eyes, “I will write to Charles. Your engagement is supposed to happen in a couple of months. I can not have you here poisoned by your father, I’ll arrange a ride to Burgundy. Do not come back to France. I have already lost Joan to the Duke of Orléans and now my son to Louis. Burgundy has treated me well, it will treat you well as its future duchess.” Charlotte stated, “Mother I can’t leave you.” Anne replied in tears, “YOU MUST TO SAVE YOURSELF. I WILL NOT HAVE YOU MARRIED TO SOME DUKE OF BOURBON.” Charlotte pleaded in anger, Anne only nodded as she continued to comfort her mother.

Teaser: Philip only cordially greeted Anne. Charles sighed, he already had to deal with a war, did he really have to deal with a cold engagement too?
 
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