Keynes' Cruisers

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pjmidd

Mr Carrot said:
the cv's will have to fight there way out of reprisal attack featuring the worst anti shipping striking force in the region under a protective umbrella of several hundred land based veteran fighter squadrons....

subs are the real risk here.
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Subs in that area are not an issue for two reasons, first they are mobile minefields, no way of more redeploying quick enough to intercept a fleet, second by this date the subs that were around were deployed a lot deeper out of coastal aircraft range , the first phase of battle of the Atlantic ( near Britain ) had already been won by the RN.
As for aircraft , a massive attack like you propose is not something that can be done quickly. By the time the bombers are ready , the ships will be out of German single ranged fighter cover.
 

fester

pjmidd said:
Subs in that area are not an issue for two reasons, first they are mobile minefields, no way of more redeploying quick enough to intercept a fleet, second by this date the subs that were around were deployed a lot deeper out of coastal aircraft range , the first phase of battle of the Atlantic ( near Britain ) had already been won by the RN.
As for aircraft , a massive attack like you propose is not something that can be done quickly. By the time the bombers are ready , the ships will be out of German single ranged fighter cover.
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Agreed, recover the strike at 150 miles and then turn around to run at 25 knots quickly gets the striking force out of escorted range. Also remember, most of the Luftwaffe is in Russia, and most of the anti-shipping units are either in the Med or the North Sea. Long range maritime patrol aircraft may or may not be effective at finding the carriers, but they can't fight their way through the combat air patrol.
 

fester

Anarch King of Dipsodes said:
Which would be "Are you all brain-damaged? Why on earth should we risk aircraft carriers to strike a target which is in easy attack range of lots of our land-based aircraft?" (SW England is only 250-300 km from Brest, and air bases, unlike carriers, cannot be sunk.)
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Because so far Bomber Command has not been able to sink the damn ships despite devoting a significant amount of effort to that mission. Carrier aircraft have the equipment and training to hit precise point targets while Bomber Command is quite happy to bomb the right county much less the right block in the right town.

And as long as the Kreigsmarine has a significant powerful surface element, the Wallies need to maintain very strong forces in Home Fleet.
 

Mr Carrot

i was indicating that the raf were in control here the Luftwaffe (whom i dismissed) can't conduct effective antishipping or mass forces to gain air superiority over south west England.... Sorry for a misunderstanding.
 
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Derek Pullem

Derek Pullem

Donor
fester said:
Because so far Bomber Command has not been able to sink the damn ships despite devoting a significant amount of effort to that mission. Carrier aircraft have the equipment and training to hit precise point targets while Bomber Command is quite happy to bomb the right county much less the right block in the right town.

And as long as the Kreigsmarine has a significant powerful surface element, the Wallies need to maintain very strong forces in Home Fleet.
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Thats a little unfair Bomber Command. They did manage to hit the ships a few times - but that was after thousands of sorties!

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...VjAK#v=onepage&q=ww2 air attack brest&f=false
 
Story 0950
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    • fester


    December 12, 1941 20 minutes after dawn, Singapore

    The last Hurricane from 30 Squadron had entered the landing circle. Radar had detected a large air raid before dawn and the fighters had scrambled into the low but increasing light. As the Mitsubishi bombers came closer to the port city, they stayed in tight formation even as their fighter escorts chomped at the bit.

    Sixty bombers had departed their bases and fifty seven were in formation when the defenders of Singapore started their attacks. One squadron of Hurricanes tangled with the dozen Zeros. The Japanese pilots, to the man, grinned as the Hurricanes tried to dance with them. A swirling dogfight started and then quickly ended as the surviving half of the squadron dove for the deck. The British pilots would claim five kills. All but one Japanese fighter actually returned to base and almost all of those survivors would be available for a late afternoon sortie.

    The Hurricanes of 30 Squadron had the chance to climb higher and earlier so they dove into the bomber groups. Heavy 20 millimeter cannons pounded lightly built bombers. Seven bombers would be claimed as sure kills and another trio were trailing smoke by the time the escorting Zeros could intervene. Two fighters had been lost to the bombers’ defensive fire and another one was lost on the first head on pass by a Zero. The more eager British pilots wanted to dogfight but the squadron commander’s South African accented voice ordered his men to head for the deck and egress as they were outnumbered and out organized.

    The remaining bombers flew through the heavy anti-aircraft fire of the fleet and naval base to drop their bomb loads on the base and the airfield at Sembawang. One hanger quickly collapsed and some workshops were wrecked. The fleet was barely damaged. A few ships had minor shrapnel scars and a dozen sailors were killed by a stray bomb.
     
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    • Butchpfd

    RyderWest said:
    The ones that got hit probably got lit up like firecrackers. The loss of those crews will hurt.

    And it seems the British are seeing that you do not dogfight with Zeros....
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    These increased losses ttl will just, make the problems with Japaneses pilot training and airgroup management only worse, and sooner.
     

    Anarch King of Dipsodes

    fester said:
    Because so far Bomber Command has not been able to sink the damn ships despite devoting a significant amount of effort to that mission. Carrier aircraft have the equipment and training to hit precise point targets while Bomber Command is quite happy to bomb the right county much less the right block in the right town.
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    Not "carrier aircraft", dive bombers. Which can operate from land bases just as effectively as from carriers - more effectively, really, since a land base can operate planes by night, or in much worse weather than a carrier, and poses far less risk of take-off and landing accidents. And has much better accommodations for air crew and erks, more room for aircraft, fuel, and munitions, and better repair and maintenance facilities. (Ships are cramped.)

    Carriers also operate torpedo bombers. As it happens, Coastal Command had lots of land-based torpedo bombers. AFAIK, they rarely or never employed them in attacks on ships in French harbors. Because torpedo plane attacks on ships in harbor could be effective only against weakly defended targets or with complete surprise. When there was heavy flak and torpedo nets, torpedo planes were useless. When the USN annihilated the remnants of the Japanese Navy in harbor in July 1945, only DBs attacked.

    Oh, and Bomber Command's difficulties in hitting Scharnhorst and Gneisenau might have had something to do with intense flak, heavy fighter opposition, and the blanket of dense black smoke the Germans deployed whenever the RAF attacked. I think dive bombers might be somewhat affected by all that.
     
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    King Augeas

    The value of using the carriers is that you can attack from the south-west, while German defence are set up to defend against aircraft arriving from the north.

    Gneisenau took an aerial torpedo while in Brest, but the Beaufort and its crew did not survive the experience. Attacking a well defended harbour with torpedo bombers without surprise or the cover of night is basically suicide.
     
    Story 0951
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    • fester


    December 12, 1941 Pearl Harbor

    USS Langley entered the still smoking ruins of Pearl Harbor. She had been at sea for the past seventy days and typically she would have a twenty or thirty day yard period to repair any of the minor issues a long hard voyage inflicted on an old ship. The repair ship Vestal could devote three days of temporary ad-hoc repairs for Langley before the old collier was due to pick up the forward elements of the 13th Pursuit Squadron from Hickam Air Base.

    As she tied up, she blew her whistle as the Pacific Fleet’s carriers began to leave harbor to cover the first Wake Island relief force.
     
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    • fester

    December 12, 1941 Fort Benning, Georgia

    The 2nd Armored Division was back in the field. New draftees had arrived right after Thanksgiving and some of the better men who had figured out how to keep the new M-3 tanks running and fighting well had been pulled back out to become instructors at the training schools and cadre for other armored divisions. Six battalions of tanks were all maneuvering as a chaotic whole. Armored infantrymen were clutching their helmets tight as their chins bobbed and their bones rattled with the half tracks and trucks advancing across the cold Georgia ground.

    Their divisional commander was flying over the multiple battalion level training exercises in a Piper Cub. He leaned out the window and saw two companies of new Grant tanks advancing into an obvious ambush. The scouts were not far enough forward and the tankers were thinking like cavalry men trying to break a square. Notes were quickly scribbled and the notebook placed back in the pocket near his pearl handled revolver. A few minutes later, the notebook came out again as a combined tank and infantry team was slowly working their way through a potential ambush alley. The infantry were moving forward in rushes while the tanks found hides that still allowed them to cover the infantrymen with their heavy cannons and machine guns. The progress was slow as the team leapfrogged forward and more than once it was obvious from the air that something had gone wrong with the communication. It was also obvious that the men on the ground knew that they had SNAFU-ed something as men walked to the back of tanks and slammed their canteens against the steel walls to start a conversation.

    An hour later, the small observation aircraft landed at the post's airfield. The general stretched his legs and collected his thoughts in his first two steps. He had work to do, his men had work to do. This was one of the divisions that had been marked for overseas contingencies and they still needed more time to get ready.
     
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    • Butchpfd

    fester said:
    December 12, 1941 Pearl Harbor

    USS Langley entered the still smoking ruins of Pearl Harbor. She had been at sea for the past seventy days and typically she would have a twenty or thirty day yard period to repair any of the minor issues a long hard voyage inflicted on an old ship. The repair ship Vestal could devote three days of temporary ad-hoc repairs for Langley before the old collier was due to pick up the forward elements of the 13th Pursuit Squadron from Hickam Air Base.

    As she tied up, she blew her whistle as the Pacific Fleet’s carriers began to leave harbor to cover the first Wake Island relief force.
    Click to expand...

    Too bad there are no plans to put the rest of her flight deck back on.. She would have been a big help as an escort carrier, plane resupply carrier for fleet carriers or foreward bases.
     
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