Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2

[Driftless]

Threadmark 1853

Camden, New Jersey, January 4, 1943


USS Independence, Princeton and Rochambeau left their birthing place. The three light carriers had been launched over the late summer and early fall. Commissioning ceremonies had been scattered during the week between Christmas and the New Years. Now the three ships were slowly heading down the Delaware River. Rochambeau’s crew was three quarters Free French built around the crew of the Bearn with only Americans as technicians and trainers.


Four destroyers and a trio of destroyer escorts waited for the ships at the mouth of Delaware Bay. The ten ships would head to the Caribbean for work up. Independence and Princeton were slotted to head to the Pacific once they were no longer rawer than steak tartare while Rochambeau would officially be turned over to the Free French for service with the Force de Raid in the Mediterranean. Her air group would only be the new Vought Corsairs that could serve primarily as fighters but have a secondary ground attack role.

I don't know if there was an earlier mention of the Rochambeau in the original "Keynes Crusier" thread

 

[RyderWest]

And here in Fester's universe, considering his more (politically) conspicuous service probably makes him less likely to volunteer for such a high risk mission as he did historically. No need for extra heroics. To paraphrase Gen Patton: Up to this point, Joe Jr. hasn't been "shovelling shit in Louisiana" in his war.

And Joe Jr has a higher chance of probably survivng the war and getting into politics.

Meanwhile JFK can just take it easy not having Joseph bearing down on him.

 

[fester]

she is an US Independence class CVL which iTTL was gifted to the Free French...
mostly to make use of the crew of the old French carrier Bearn that had been interned in USA custody.

(IIRC Fester never told us which Cleveland class light cruiser hull was used for this particular conversion
... or even if an extra one was converted to keep up the USN Numbers - 9 iOTL
plus 2 of the similar Saipan Class based on Baltimore class HEAVY cruiser hull)

Rochambeau is ex Belleau Woods ex New Haven

 

[AlanJWhite]

Rochambeau is ex Belleau Woods ex New Haven

t

Appropriate
... the OTL Belleau Wood was loaned to the French after the war ... with the name simply translated as Bois Belleau

as was her sister Langley which became La Fayette (with the space I think)

 

[terv]

fester did the number of Independence class CVLs get cut or is navy thinking the bring all 9 online for the American fleet is not needed because of the number of fleet carriers left intact.

 

[fester]

fester did the number of Independence class CVLs get cut or is navy thinking the bring all 9 online for the American fleet is not needed because of the number of fleet carriers left intact.

9 are in the pipeline. 8 are slotted for the USN. The Free French is far more substantial TTL so giving up an expedited carrier for influence even as thr delivery schedule of preferred Essex class carriers is slightly faster than OTL. This was the trade off when the offer was made in June 1942

 

[AlanJWhite]

9 are in the pipeline. 8 are slotted for the USN. The Free French is far more substantial TTL so giving up an expedited carrier for influence even as thr delivery schedule of preferred Essex class carriers is slightly faster than OTL. This was the trade off when the offer was made in June 1942

The Independence Class CVL had an interesting "gestation" period iOTL.

AIUI they were first considered in mid-1941, specifically because Roosevelt queried the fact that no extra carriers would be available till early 1944
(discounting the first Essex I assume and given no CVE at all were planned for the USN on that date)

He suggested trading some of the many cruisers planned for smaller CVs.

The USN duly investigated and on 25 Oct 1941 reported that such small decks could be done and would arrive faster
but were less efficient and they would rather pass.

iTTL with the Essex arriving a bit faster, I can't see that decision changing without ASB levels of foresight
(Even with the Essex "conveyor belt", the CVLs provided 40% of the 5th fleets fighters from late '44)

iOTL the attack on Pearl Harbor changed their mind about getting more decks quicker.
in January 42 the Navy ordered one of the Cleveland Hulls being built to be converted as a trial.
(It was Belleau Wood as it happened )
The concept proved more practicable than expected, and so 2 more were ordered late February to be built from scratch.
( 3 more in March and the final 3 in June made up the order for CVLs till the Saipans based on a CA hull)

iOTL BW was overtaken by some of her sisters (hence the Independence Class)
but still commissioned in March and deployed late July 43.

Some VERY effective butterflies have been flapping their wings to get her ready 6 months early
(especially in foreign hands and carrying an unproven airwing)

Still, authors call

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Some VERY effective butterflies have been flapping their wings to get her ready 6 months early
(especially in foreign hands and carrying an unproven airwing)

Still, authors call

Remember that the PoD for this TL is significantly increased naval spending over OTL, as Keynesian stimulus to pull the US out of the Great Depression. So, it's entirely in line with the story arc.

 

[misterwibble]

fester did the number of Independence class CVLs get cut or is navy thinking the bring all 9 online for the American fleet is not needed because of the number of fleet carriers left intact.

The US philosophy in the Pacific was pretty much ' no such thing as too many carriers'. As I understand it by the war's end they had over a hundred when you add up all types, with something like 10 000 carrier aircraft.

 

[fester]

The Independence Class CVL had an interesting "gestation" period iOTL.

AIUI they were first considered in mid-1941, specifically because Roosevelt queried the fact that no extra carriers would be available till early 1944
(discounting the first Essex I assume and given no CVE at all were planned for the USN on that date)

He suggested trading some of the many cruisers planned for smaller CVs.

The USN duly investigated and on 25 Oct 1941 reported that such small decks could be done and would arrive faster
but were less efficient and they would rather pass.
iOTL BW was overtaken by some of her sisters (hence the Independence Class)
but still commissioned in March and deployed late July 43.

Some VERY effective butterflies have been flapping their wings to get her ready 6 months early
(especially in foreign hands and carrying an unproven airwing)

Still, authors call

I've been leaving a trail of bread crumbs on the Independence class being accelerated since almost the beginning:

July 1938 https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/#post-12632381
As USS Wasp was being built:

she (WASP) could not be the basis of an expedient carrier. The Yorktown class was faster, better armed and armored with far more endurance while the two converted battle cruisers were even larger with more combat endurance than the purpose built full sized carriers.

Instead the architects had two tracks they were working on. The first was similar in size but far less ambitious than Wasp. Cruiser hulls and cruiser machinery would be used to build fast light carriers that could support the heavy carriers on offensive missions. Their air groups would be small; full capacity might only be thirty-five aircraft instead of Wasp’s seventy-five but they would be faster and slightly better protected on a 10,000 to 12,000 ton hull. These ships would be expensive for the capability that they provided but they could be built in yards that could not build a Yorktown or the new fleet carrier design that was being bandied about....

a few thousand dollars and three dozen hours of tank and wind tunnel time had been found for testing out rough models of expedient carriers. Anything that the architects found out over this summer of testing and drawing would be instantly obsolete but they could at least find out what definitely would not work when the Navy needed flight decks in a hurry.
​

October 1941
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-213#post-15846916
3 Cleveland class hulls have construction frozen while the naval architects review conversion plans

January 1942 --- https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/keynes-cruisers.388788/page-319#post-16307720
Construction of the CVLs start

 

[fester]

San Juan Puerto Rico, April 13, 1943

Five aircraft carriers were in port. Two, USS Independence and USS Princeton were ready for war. They had spent the winter working up in the Caribbean. Independence was scheduled to steam to Norfolk and Princeton was on the way to Philadelphia. The two light carriers would spend up to a week in the yard before re-uniting with each other and their escorts before heading to the Mediterranean and points further east.

USS Bon Homme Richard, Cabot and Bunker Hill had just been released from the construction yards. Between the three carriers, half a complete air group was aboard. There were just enough aircraft for flight operations to be conducted and deck crews to be trained. The other ten squadrons were still scattered up and down the East Coast to continue their training. The carriers had pulled in for repairs and liberty after eight to fifteen days of hard trials. Across the harbor, two shiny new heavy cruisers, USS Boston and USS Baltimore were filling their liberty launches. Boston had accompanied Bunker Hill south to work up. They would be splitting up as the gun ranges provided almost no value to the carrier but were the core essence of the heavy cruiser’s existence. Another dozen lesser warships had pulled in and out of the harbor; almost all were still green and fresh from the East Coast yards as the convoy gathering center for the Caribbean was at Guantanamo instead of Puerto Rico. They would soon go to sea for more time shaking down and their slips would be used by the next wave of raw ships that needed their crews to become a single thoughtful organism before they headed off to the Pacific Fleet.

 

[fester]

The River Plate, April 14, 1943


U-178 descended back to the depths. The Kraken slept again. She had six torpedoes left. The rest had claimed five merchant ships for at least thirty five thousand tons in this barely patrolled section of the British imperial trade path.


She slowly moved to the northeast until night fell. As soon as the diesels pumped power back into the batteries, the young skipper changed course to a new hunting ground closer to Brazil.

 

[fester]

The Southern Spanish Coast, April 14, 1943


A battered body washed ashore. The fishermen had seen a flash of light overnight and then a fire on the water offshore. The body had a briefcase handcuffed to his left wrist. Within hours, the local police had called the regional police who had called the national police. This was not just a shipwrecked sailor or a downed aviator washing ashore.

 

[Curtain Jerker]

The Southern Spanish Coast, April 14, 1943


A battered body washed ashore. The fishermen had seen a flash of light overnight and then a fire on the water offshore. The body had a briefcase handcuffed to his left wrist. Within hours, the local police had called the regional police who had called the national police. This was not just a shipwrecked sailor or a downed aviator washing ashore.

Wonder if the Germans fall for it this time around.

 

[pjmidd]

The Southern Spanish Coast, April 14, 1943


A battered body washed ashore. The fishermen had seen a flash of light overnight and then a fire on the water offshore. The body had a briefcase handcuffed to his left wrist. Within hours, the local police had called the regional police who had called the national police. This was not just a shipwrecked sailor or a downed aviator washing ashore.

Mincemeat I presume?

 

[Spencersj345.346]

And thus begins the tale of what will become task force 38/58

 

[vl100butch]

The River Platte, April 14, 1943
U-178 descended back to the depths. The Kraken slept again. She had six torpedoes left. The rest had claimed five merchant ships for at least thirty five thousand tons in this barely patrolled section of the British imperial trade path.

She slowly moved to the northeast until night fell. As soon as the diesels pumped power back into the batteries, the young skipper changed course to a new hunting ground closer to Brazil.

Fester, you haven't addressed Brazil yet in this tale (as I can recall that is )...can i presume that the buildup that happened OTL is happening ITL?

Then we have the issue of the FEB (Brazilian Expeditionary Force), are the production lines mature enough that a full corps can be equipped rather than a division slice?

 

[Draconis]

One other feature of the arrival of the Rochambeau is that she has a deck full of Corsair butterflies. They will be needed to oppose the Luftwaffe's best fighters.

In TTL will the actions of the Captain of U-178 push much of the rest of South America into declaring war on Germany?

Will TTL's Mincemeat be effective?

Stay tuned.

 

[fester]

Fester, you haven't addressed Brazil yet in this tale (as I can recall that is )...can i presume that the buildup that happened OTL is happening ITL?

Then we have the issue of the FEB (Brazilian Expeditionary Force), are the production lines mature enough that a full corps can be equipped rather than a division slice?

Regarding Brazil -- mostly the same OTL as TTL... and the FEB will be a reinforced Division with appropriate air elements

 

[sloreck]

I would expect the USN to be operating ASW aircraft and blimps out of Brazil. The simulated air crash the fisherman saw is even more convincing than OTL where the body simply washed ashore. There is no reason to expect the Germans to be less accepting of "Major Martin" ITTL than they were OTL, I expect in part the germans would not have expected the British to be so cavalier with a corpse. OTL they worked very hard to find a body that would look like drowning on autopsy (trust me if you don't do that its not convincing). OTL the German "excuse" for invading Poland was the attack by Polish forces on a German radio station near the border, complete with corpses dressed in Polish uniforms.