who's going to own the skies over the strait after the initial strikes? that will answer a lot of questions of what will happen next...I don't see all 6 US/UK battleships being disabled or sunk...you just might see what Halsey wanted to do at Leyte Gulf, but was unable to do because he didn't leave a covering force off Samar...
Keynes' Cruisers Volume 2
- Thread starter fester
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Donald Reaver
Donor
Will the Japanese strike force even spot the American carriers? They are headed for cover under a rain squall. After this attack and the incoming attack on the Japanese carriers I doubt they will have the strength to go after the R.N. once they know they are out there.
It would be kind of fun if the battleline got to act as more than shore bombardment and AA platforms. OTOH, if they do get to sink something with the big guns, people will want to waste money on battleships for decades...
Radars on RN BBs in '42:
KGV (Mid '42) had 4 x Type 285s, on the HACS directors (good for directing fire up to about 8.5 miles), and 4 x Type 282s on the pompom directors (good for 3.5 miles, though the guns effective range was c 1700yds)
PoW when sunk IOTL had 4 x 285 and 4 x 282.
Anson had 4 x 285, 6 x 282
Info from Alan Raven & John Roberts, British Battleships of World War Two, Arms & Armour press, 1976.
True ... and perhaps they will be helpful during any action as a flak trap.
but while Type 285 is for 5.25" guns which are Dual Purpose, these guns are of limited use during ASuW
and as you point out the Type 282 controls 40mm/2pdr which are even less use against capital ships.
Its the Type 273 Surface warning (range up to 45K yards)
and above all the Type 284 gunnery control sets that will be needed for the main guns
(20K + yards - can range on target and own shell splashes for rapid correction)
Edited: to replace Type 274 as gunnery control as probably wont be available at this date
(The earlier 284 was on DoY when she crippled Scharnhorst in near 0:0 visibility)
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I get the horrible feeling we are going to be left hanging over the Thanksgiving holiday. @fester, please say it isn't so?
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
Hmm, no Roma or Warspite ITTL. Still, plenty of examples of armoured ships being sunk with unguided weapons, outside the target's effective range.
Story 1776 The agony of TF-17
18 miles north of USS Washington, 1411 January 2, 1943
“Tally Ho”
The eight Sea Hurricane pilots had an almost perfect intercept position. The sun was behind the British fighters. They were 7,000 feet above the enemy fighters, 9,000 feet above the bombers. The bombers were crossing from right to left underneath the interceptors at 11 o’clock. The escorting Zeroes were weaving warily.
The heavily armed fighters tipped over. They descended four thousand feet before the six Japanese fighters that they were targeting reacted to the danger. Three split left and the other three nosed up to confront the threat. Being outnumbered and massively outgunned, a direct challenge was an unwise albeit aggressive decision on the part of a flight leader who had last seen combat over Pearl Harbor. The lead four Hurricanes concentrated on the Japanese flight leader, while the second section pounded the right hand wingman. Six 20 millimeter cannons firing upwards against gravity were being countered by thirty two 20 millimeter cannons aided by gravity. It was not a contest. One Sea Hurricane took a few hits in outer wing. The pilot and his wingman broke off. Both targeted Zeroes were shredded. One pilot was able to escape and he descended to the sea beneath a silk chute. The other pilot was burning to death as the Hurricanes tore through the formation. Two broke off to chase the last Zero while the other four shifted slightly to attack a tight V of Vals from Zuikahu. The rear gunners were tracking the threat and the fixed guns were charged and ready in case the hunters were too aggressive.
Even as the six Sea Hurricanes were being chased away by nine Zeros to prevent a second pass, the eight Wildcats that had been the CAP for TF-17 arrived. They too had enough time and altitude to listen to HMS Fiji’s fighter director. They were high, ahead, backed by the sun and slightly off-center from the tremendous Japanese attack formation. They too picked out a gaggle of escorting fighters to attack in their first pass. Two quick kills and another Zero damaged in the first pass and then the surviving half dozen Zeroes tangled with the Wildcats to protect the bombers. Thach weaves countered slow speed acrobats to indecision.
Even as the frustrating skirmish stripped the strike of its fighters, another ten Wildcats from TF-17 dove in unopposed. Four Kates flamed out, joined by a Wildcat that had flashed across the flank of the squadron and was laced with defensive fire. The American fighters dove another two thousand feet before going into a Split-S to re-engage the descending torpedo bombers. By now, some of the first alert fighters were arriving. Four Seafires tangled with a trio of Zeroes, six Martlets ripped open a formation of Kates while four Wildcats from Enterprise were jumped by escorting fighters, losing two before a flight from Yorktown could aid them.
Aboard HMS Fiji, the fighter directors were trying to make sense of the battle going on above them and coming straight towards them. Fifty more Allied fighters were in the air and coming north. A fifteen second conversation was held --- the cruisers and battleships were less valuable than the carriers; the still assembling fighters would get the leakers. Thirty seconds after this decision, another decision was made:
“OFFSIDE OFFSIDE OFFSIDE” was yelled into the ears of almost every American and British fighter pilot. The thirty four surviving fighters out of the forty that had attacked first broke off as quickly as they could. Even before the outer defenders were safe, the heavy anti-aircraft guns of the battleline were cracking. Hundreds of barrels were slinging shells as quickly as they could be loaded. Radar directors saw their errors and quickly made corrections. Even as half a dozen torpedo bombers and a trio of dive bombers were shot down, the medium guns started to fire too.
A few Japanese pilots broke. The six surviving dive bombers from the damaged Hiryu failed. Their discipline was aluminum instead of iron. Each plane entered a 75 degree dive from 11,000 feet. Two bombs struck USS South Dakota. One was defeated by the armor of the aft turret. The other exploded in the mess deck and wiped out a damage control crew. Twenty minutes later, the fire was out and the hole patched with canvas and plywood.
Half of Akagi’s dive bombers broke to the southwest to avoid a hail storm of five inch shrapnel.
Almost one hundred aircraft pressed on through the thickest flak barrage any pilot had ever seen. A third of the aircraft had been damaged even as they continued to head south. The fighters redressed their lines and prepared for another string of attacks.
The battleships and cruisers fired Parthian shots. The Japanese pilots had two minutes of calm to tighten their ranks and identify the missing and the dying. And then the next wave of Allied fighters struck as a single fist. Seafires sought out dive bombers, Sea Hurricanes hunted torpedo bombers, Grummans tied up the remaining Japanese fighters. Squadron ranks were emptied and the Japanese pilots pulled tighter together to hold formations. A broken squadron was a dying squadron. Many squadrons were wounded but few were destroyed. And then the defending fighters were called off after forty aircraft were no longer seen on the scopes.
USS Saratoga’s fuel lines had long been emptied and then filled with carbon dioxide. Every bomb and torpedo was secured in the magazines. Any aircraft that could fly had taken off and the rest had empty fuel tanks as they sat tight in the hanger. Gunners waited as they saw the Japanese strike coming in. Black bursts of hope and death started to break in the sky as San Juan and Atlanta began their box barrages. The rest of the screen joined in as quickly as they could. Fifty seconds later, the dual purpose guns near the island started to fire too.
Dive bombers from Shokaku tipped over and the medium auto-cannons and then the heavy machine guns started to fire too. Every gun that could point skyward was. Men removed the snail ammo drums from the heaviest machine guns and heaved the barrels upwards again. A few bombers never pulled out after dropping and more were scarred and scared. It did not matter
Three bombs penetrated the flight deck. One exploded near the stacks, while the other two were well forward. Fires started and the first response teams were cut down when another bomb detonated yards from them. The big carrier slowed as flames licked at her wooden flight deck. Even as Saratoga staggered under her blows, look-outs saw USS Lexington list to starboard and smoke pouring out her stern. Three torpedoes had hit her all in her after half. The attacking squadrons paid dearly for their success but it was a success that any admiral would take: single engine bombers for a carrier.
The surviving Japanese pilots were fleeing north in twos and threes. A few squadrons were both lucky enough and organized enough to hold formations of half a dozen or more. Those assembled groups mostly survived the gauntlet of the still angry and organized American and British fighters that had collected a toll on the inbound strike and exacted an even greater toll on the outbound survivors. The chase was called off forty five miles north of USS Washington after two scores of kills were claimed.
“Tally Ho”
The eight Sea Hurricane pilots had an almost perfect intercept position. The sun was behind the British fighters. They were 7,000 feet above the enemy fighters, 9,000 feet above the bombers. The bombers were crossing from right to left underneath the interceptors at 11 o’clock. The escorting Zeroes were weaving warily.
The heavily armed fighters tipped over. They descended four thousand feet before the six Japanese fighters that they were targeting reacted to the danger. Three split left and the other three nosed up to confront the threat. Being outnumbered and massively outgunned, a direct challenge was an unwise albeit aggressive decision on the part of a flight leader who had last seen combat over Pearl Harbor. The lead four Hurricanes concentrated on the Japanese flight leader, while the second section pounded the right hand wingman. Six 20 millimeter cannons firing upwards against gravity were being countered by thirty two 20 millimeter cannons aided by gravity. It was not a contest. One Sea Hurricane took a few hits in outer wing. The pilot and his wingman broke off. Both targeted Zeroes were shredded. One pilot was able to escape and he descended to the sea beneath a silk chute. The other pilot was burning to death as the Hurricanes tore through the formation. Two broke off to chase the last Zero while the other four shifted slightly to attack a tight V of Vals from Zuikahu. The rear gunners were tracking the threat and the fixed guns were charged and ready in case the hunters were too aggressive.
Even as the six Sea Hurricanes were being chased away by nine Zeros to prevent a second pass, the eight Wildcats that had been the CAP for TF-17 arrived. They too had enough time and altitude to listen to HMS Fiji’s fighter director. They were high, ahead, backed by the sun and slightly off-center from the tremendous Japanese attack formation. They too picked out a gaggle of escorting fighters to attack in their first pass. Two quick kills and another Zero damaged in the first pass and then the surviving half dozen Zeroes tangled with the Wildcats to protect the bombers. Thach weaves countered slow speed acrobats to indecision.
Even as the frustrating skirmish stripped the strike of its fighters, another ten Wildcats from TF-17 dove in unopposed. Four Kates flamed out, joined by a Wildcat that had flashed across the flank of the squadron and was laced with defensive fire. The American fighters dove another two thousand feet before going into a Split-S to re-engage the descending torpedo bombers. By now, some of the first alert fighters were arriving. Four Seafires tangled with a trio of Zeroes, six Martlets ripped open a formation of Kates while four Wildcats from Enterprise were jumped by escorting fighters, losing two before a flight from Yorktown could aid them.
Aboard HMS Fiji, the fighter directors were trying to make sense of the battle going on above them and coming straight towards them. Fifty more Allied fighters were in the air and coming north. A fifteen second conversation was held --- the cruisers and battleships were less valuable than the carriers; the still assembling fighters would get the leakers. Thirty seconds after this decision, another decision was made:
“OFFSIDE OFFSIDE OFFSIDE” was yelled into the ears of almost every American and British fighter pilot. The thirty four surviving fighters out of the forty that had attacked first broke off as quickly as they could. Even before the outer defenders were safe, the heavy anti-aircraft guns of the battleline were cracking. Hundreds of barrels were slinging shells as quickly as they could be loaded. Radar directors saw their errors and quickly made corrections. Even as half a dozen torpedo bombers and a trio of dive bombers were shot down, the medium guns started to fire too.
A few Japanese pilots broke. The six surviving dive bombers from the damaged Hiryu failed. Their discipline was aluminum instead of iron. Each plane entered a 75 degree dive from 11,000 feet. Two bombs struck USS South Dakota. One was defeated by the armor of the aft turret. The other exploded in the mess deck and wiped out a damage control crew. Twenty minutes later, the fire was out and the hole patched with canvas and plywood.
Half of Akagi’s dive bombers broke to the southwest to avoid a hail storm of five inch shrapnel.
Almost one hundred aircraft pressed on through the thickest flak barrage any pilot had ever seen. A third of the aircraft had been damaged even as they continued to head south. The fighters redressed their lines and prepared for another string of attacks.
The battleships and cruisers fired Parthian shots. The Japanese pilots had two minutes of calm to tighten their ranks and identify the missing and the dying. And then the next wave of Allied fighters struck as a single fist. Seafires sought out dive bombers, Sea Hurricanes hunted torpedo bombers, Grummans tied up the remaining Japanese fighters. Squadron ranks were emptied and the Japanese pilots pulled tighter together to hold formations. A broken squadron was a dying squadron. Many squadrons were wounded but few were destroyed. And then the defending fighters were called off after forty aircraft were no longer seen on the scopes.
USS Saratoga’s fuel lines had long been emptied and then filled with carbon dioxide. Every bomb and torpedo was secured in the magazines. Any aircraft that could fly had taken off and the rest had empty fuel tanks as they sat tight in the hanger. Gunners waited as they saw the Japanese strike coming in. Black bursts of hope and death started to break in the sky as San Juan and Atlanta began their box barrages. The rest of the screen joined in as quickly as they could. Fifty seconds later, the dual purpose guns near the island started to fire too.
Dive bombers from Shokaku tipped over and the medium auto-cannons and then the heavy machine guns started to fire too. Every gun that could point skyward was. Men removed the snail ammo drums from the heaviest machine guns and heaved the barrels upwards again. A few bombers never pulled out after dropping and more were scarred and scared. It did not matter
Three bombs penetrated the flight deck. One exploded near the stacks, while the other two were well forward. Fires started and the first response teams were cut down when another bomb detonated yards from them. The big carrier slowed as flames licked at her wooden flight deck. Even as Saratoga staggered under her blows, look-outs saw USS Lexington list to starboard and smoke pouring out her stern. Three torpedoes had hit her all in her after half. The attacking squadrons paid dearly for their success but it was a success that any admiral would take: single engine bombers for a carrier.
The surviving Japanese pilots were fleeing north in twos and threes. A few squadrons were both lucky enough and organized enough to hold formations of half a dozen or more. Those assembled groups mostly survived the gauntlet of the still angry and organized American and British fighters that had collected a toll on the inbound strike and exacted an even greater toll on the outbound survivors. The chase was called off forty five miles north of USS Washington after two scores of kills were claimed.
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Story 1777
Western Makassar Strait, 1428 January 2, 1943
The sixteen Marauders descended. Gunners were looking for fighters that they had yet to see. Pilots insured that the formation was tight and that they were entering the parameters for a good drop. Radio silence was no longer being observed as the target was in sight. Eight bombers broke off and circled the small Japanese task force. The wounded warrior in the center was their target. Even from several miles away and well outside of the guns' range, sharp eyed co-pilots could see turrets and gun houses tracking them.
The second section reached their ingress point and then all sixteen Dutch torpedo bombers began their attack run. It was a long, deliberate run, the commander judging the increased exposure to the comparatively light anti-aircraft fire would be worth the increase probability of reliable torpedo runs. Mechanics and technicians had babied the torpedoes more than most mothers had ever cared for their first child and everyone hoped that the time and expense had been worth it. The destroyer division was throwing up more flak than the damaged battlecruiser. Most of the shells were high and late before they were at least on level and increasing close. One of the anvil attackers tumbled into the sea. The gunner escaped into a dinghy and would be picked up three days later by a Catalina. A mile from the slowly moving Haruna, lighter flak began to take its toll. The shells that hit claimed another bomber and would keep two from reaching home but thirteen torpedoes entered the water from 800 yards away. A barely mobile target that stretched for over two hundred yards in length was almost ideal for the anti-shipping squadron. Three detonations opened up more holes on the already damaged flank. All of the torpedoes from the head on attack missed but they did their job. They kept Haruna fixed and they too contributed to sending her to a watery grave several thousand feet underneath the tropical sea.
The sixteen Marauders descended. Gunners were looking for fighters that they had yet to see. Pilots insured that the formation was tight and that they were entering the parameters for a good drop. Radio silence was no longer being observed as the target was in sight. Eight bombers broke off and circled the small Japanese task force. The wounded warrior in the center was their target. Even from several miles away and well outside of the guns' range, sharp eyed co-pilots could see turrets and gun houses tracking them.
The second section reached their ingress point and then all sixteen Dutch torpedo bombers began their attack run. It was a long, deliberate run, the commander judging the increased exposure to the comparatively light anti-aircraft fire would be worth the increase probability of reliable torpedo runs. Mechanics and technicians had babied the torpedoes more than most mothers had ever cared for their first child and everyone hoped that the time and expense had been worth it. The destroyer division was throwing up more flak than the damaged battlecruiser. Most of the shells were high and late before they were at least on level and increasing close. One of the anvil attackers tumbled into the sea. The gunner escaped into a dinghy and would be picked up three days later by a Catalina. A mile from the slowly moving Haruna, lighter flak began to take its toll. The shells that hit claimed another bomber and would keep two from reaching home but thirteen torpedoes entered the water from 800 yards away. A barely mobile target that stretched for over two hundred yards in length was almost ideal for the anti-shipping squadron. Three detonations opened up more holes on the already damaged flank. All of the torpedoes from the head on attack missed but they did their job. They kept Haruna fixed and they too contributed to sending her to a watery grave several thousand feet underneath the tropical sea.
Story 1778
Southern Makassar Strait, 1441 January 2, 1943
Aboard HMS Ark Royal, the radar operators were busy. More fighters were being launched. Crippled aircraft were being guided back to the carriers. Anti-submarine patrol aircraft flitted and fluttered across the scope. The operations room was hearing of the damage to Saratoga and Lexington almost as soon as their skins were pierced. They did not pay too much attention to a small group of aircraft coming through the squall line from the northeast. It probably was fighters with damaged radios.
HMS Indomitable left the short cloudburst and entered the sun again a minute ahead of Ark Royal. That minute would prove forgiving. The seven dive bombers from Akagi that had diverted to the southwest instead of the south when the were mauled by the battle line flak trap had been searching for a target and suddenly they burst into clear skies. Beneath them was a half dozen warships forming a demi-lune around a carrier. A radio message to Akagi was still being sent as they dove. Anti-aircraft guns were manned and many responded quickly as soon as they saw the threat coming at them. It did not matter, only one bomber was damaged.
Seven bombs fell towards the carrier. The first three missed. All were close enough to soak the gunners. The fourth bomb's fuse was defeated by the armored deck. The explosion scythed exposed pom-pom crews and rattled the entire ship. The fifth bomb was a miss as the pilot had to cope with a pair of two pounder shells ripping into his wing moments before the bomb release point. The sixth bomb was another near miss while the final bomb was also defeated by the steel deck.
Half an hour later, the carrier was ready for flight operations and began to land her fighters while planning began for a dusk strike against the Japanese carriers.
Aboard HMS Ark Royal, the radar operators were busy. More fighters were being launched. Crippled aircraft were being guided back to the carriers. Anti-submarine patrol aircraft flitted and fluttered across the scope. The operations room was hearing of the damage to Saratoga and Lexington almost as soon as their skins were pierced. They did not pay too much attention to a small group of aircraft coming through the squall line from the northeast. It probably was fighters with damaged radios.
HMS Indomitable left the short cloudburst and entered the sun again a minute ahead of Ark Royal. That minute would prove forgiving. The seven dive bombers from Akagi that had diverted to the southwest instead of the south when the were mauled by the battle line flak trap had been searching for a target and suddenly they burst into clear skies. Beneath them was a half dozen warships forming a demi-lune around a carrier. A radio message to Akagi was still being sent as they dove. Anti-aircraft guns were manned and many responded quickly as soon as they saw the threat coming at them. It did not matter, only one bomber was damaged.
Seven bombs fell towards the carrier. The first three missed. All were close enough to soak the gunners. The fourth bomb's fuse was defeated by the armored deck. The explosion scythed exposed pom-pom crews and rattled the entire ship. The fifth bomb was a miss as the pilot had to cope with a pair of two pounder shells ripping into his wing moments before the bomb release point. The sixth bomb was another near miss while the final bomb was also defeated by the steel deck.
Half an hour later, the carrier was ready for flight operations and began to land her fighters while planning began for a dusk strike against the Japanese carriers.
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Three bombs on the Saratoga. With good firefighting and being prepared for it, she should be able to survive. Done for this battle and needing to head home for major repairs though.
Four torpedoes in the Lexington. Toward the stern. Probably flood the engine room. I don`t think she will survive that.
TF-17 is out of this fight.
Four torpedoes in the Lexington. Toward the stern. Probably flood the engine room. I don`t think she will survive that.
TF-17 is out of this fight.
Remember folks. It doesn't matter how many Aircraft you can carry if you only carry them to the bottom of the sea.
Lexington is either gone or at least probably going to be out of the fight until sometime in 1944 if she survives. Saratoga is a mission kill, but if there are no significant follow on strikes, will probably survive, though a good six months to a year in a shipyard being repaired and presumably refitted and upgraded is likely.
Giving the amount of aircraft lost, and likely a number that have suffered damage that will see them pushed over the side, I'm guessing outside of a few token strikes, the Japanese havel essentially shot their bolt.
The one big advantage I see is that the four British carriers are present and have decent night strike abilities. While the daylight US/British strike sinking one or more Japanese carriers would be preferred, if they can damage them enough to make recovery and launching of aircraft impossible, Somerville can try and pick them off after dark.
Nice to see the Dutch get a good hit in as well. The Japanese aren't getting off easily, and it's one less high profile secondary target that Somerville, Fletcher, and whoever else now no longer has to worry about or waste time dealing with.
Giving the amount of aircraft lost, and likely a number that have suffered damage that will see them pushed over the side, I'm guessing outside of a few token strikes, the Japanese havel essentially shot their bolt.
The one big advantage I see is that the four British carriers are present and have decent night strike abilities. While the daylight US/British strike sinking one or more Japanese carriers would be preferred, if they can damage them enough to make recovery and launching of aircraft impossible, Somerville can try and pick them off after dark.
Nice to see the Dutch get a good hit in as well. The Japanese aren't getting off easily, and it's one less high profile secondary target that Somerville, Fletcher, and whoever else now no longer has to worry about or waste time dealing with.
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