It's A Long Way To Nagasaki: The Anglo-Japanese War

[Derwent Water]

I always figured that the TTL peace treaty to end the war would be signed in Nagasaki, hence the title. But of course its down to Seal to decide how the story goes.

Personally I found the death of Hitler plausa le, bei g one of those unexpected butterflies that is often noted by the readers in the forum but arenot realised in the story. Certainly a very different world situation emerges when two great powers (using that term a bit loosely) go to war.

 

[GrahamB]

I'd just like to point out that the assassination of Hitler was based on a very real attempt from OTL. It just happened to succeed TTL thanks to very reasonable butterflies.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I'd just like to point out that the assassination of Hitler was based on a very real attempt from OTL. It just happened to succeed TTL thanks to very reasonable butterflies.

The surprising thing about all the assassination attempts on Hitler is that he managed to survive them all

 

[CultBoy]

The surprising thing about all the assassination attempts on Hitler is that he managed to survive them all

In far to many ATLs Hitler seems to survive cause he's Hitler or the other extreme 'You think Hitler was bad.....' ATL seems to be treading a sensible middle ground well.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

The surprising thing about all the assassination attempts on Hitler is that he managed to survive them all

Indeed. After escaping Elser's bomb in OTL, Hitler began saying to his cronies that he was favored by destiny. And he didn't even know lucky he really was. Operation FLASH got a timebomb on his plane in March 1943, but it didn't go off and the plotters retrieved it. Hitler never knew. The von dem Bussche suicide bomb plan of December 1943 was thwarted when Allied bombs blew up the freight car holding the new uniform he was to model for Hitler - the night before. Hitler never knew.

 

[RanulfC]

Indeed. After escaping Elser's bomb in OTL, Hitler began saying to his cronies that he was favored by destiny. And he didn't even know lucky he really was. Operation FLASH got a timebomb on his plane in March 1943, but it didn't go off and the plotters retrieved it. Hitler never knew. The von dem Bussche suicide bomb plan of December 1943 was thwarted when Allied bombs blew up the freight car holding the new uniform he was to model for Hitler - the night before. Hitler never knew.

Reminds me of a comic I saw:
Young Nazi guard being briefed by his Sargent:
Sgt: You ready to spend night guarding the Furher?
YNG: Yes sir!
Suddenly the Air shimmers and a person dressed in strange 'futuristic' gear steps through an tries to shoot Hitler but is killed by the Sgt and the YNG.
Sgt: You alright?
YNG: Yes... but you have to wonder why this keeps happening...

Randy

 

[Saint_007]

Reminds me of a comic I saw:
Young Nazi guard being briefed by his Sargent:
Sgt: You ready to spend night guarding the Furher?
YNG: Yes sir!
Suddenly the Air shimmers and a person dressed in strange 'futuristic' gear steps through an tries to shoot Hitler but is killed by the Sgt and the YNG.
Sgt: You alright?
YNG: Yes... but you have to wonder why this keeps happening...

Randy

You mean this one:

Obersalzberg

Winston Rowntree and Virus Comix bring you comics online.

viruscomix.com

 

[starman]

The surprising thing about all the assassination attempts on Hitler is that he managed to survive them all

Shirer quoted him as saying "I fully understand why 90% of the historic assassinations were successful.……the solution is to live irregularly…" Adolf's abrupt changes in schedule were intended to foil possible assassination attempts based on foreknowledge of where he'd be and when.

 

[RanulfC]

You mean this one:

Obersalzberg

Winston Rowntree and Virus Comix bring you comics online.

viruscomix.com

That's the one

Randy

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

Sorry for the lack of recent updates, I'm wrapping up my MA (which has involved a surprising amount of travel) so the TL isn't even on the back-burner right now. It's not cancelled, I just figured I'd just let you know not to expect an update any earlier than November.

On another note: Question for SealTheRealDeal: From where flows the decision to kill of ol' Adolf? A ripple of the PoD, or just a good old 'because I wanted to see what happens'?

Hitler dying is largely a consequence of the PoD and the way the ripples hit Europe. Some on this thread had been noting it as a possible, if not likely, consequence for years now. The civil war is somewhat more a case of author fiat, I wanted to write a "realistic" (ie early and limited) Nazi civil war because I find the Nazi Victory = apocalyptic civil war trope to be extremely tiresome.

I'm not a mind-reader but it seems like a case of author's "it's my universe and in my universe Hitler gonna die and meet his deserved fate sooner".

Alternatively we might speculate a little further ahead. Who else is wanked the most by there being no WWII?

Britain? Well they aren't getting dragged into a far more costly war closer to home.

The Soviets? They aren't being gutted by Barbarossa for the foreseeable future.

Germany? The civil war will suck, but cancelling their national suicide and subsequent partition would be one hell of a trade off, especially if the civil war leaves their dominant economic position in central and southern Europe intact.

 

[GrahamB]

Who else is wanked the most by there being no WWII?

Well it's not the Soviets as far as I know. The weaknesses in Stalin's state weren't made clear until a bunch of Germans decided to illustrate the issue so obviously Ol' Joe was convinced to reverse some of his policies and purges. Without it, those fissures remain without the MASSIVE boost in national solidarity getting invaded provides.
I hesitate to speculate what the effects of this would be further down the line but I'd hazard Stalin will still attack Finland (I think that's still forthcoming) and to similar results. Stalin might 'win', but the cost is going to be so high it'll seriously question Soviet leadership. Without a Nazi invasion to rally the Soviets around the flag again, Stalin's position as leader of the Soviet Union might be in jeopardy. After that it's a take-your-pick of who to replace him with.

I'm going to curve ball and say China. Well, the KMT anyway. An early end to the China-Japanese theatre of the war is going to do wonders for the KMT's ability to keep enough manpower together to finally deal with the Communists. It's going to be bloody, it's going to be ugly, but I think Mao ends this timeline as compost.

I do hope India gets at least Dominion status after this, the Imperial effort is going to rely on Indian troops in Asia and there's only so far up their own colons the House of Lords can keep their heads until they need to come up for air.

 

[diestormlie]

What about France?

They're still, by reputation, the greatest military power in Europe. Their rival for that just turned in on itself. They don't lose however many soldiers as I'm assuming WW2 generally is butterflied. They don't catastrophically lose their prestige, and thus their colonial position isn't challenged.

Though then again, I know how fragile the then system of government was.

 

[skarosianlifeform]

Or Fasciste Italy, not trying suicide-by-Allies.

 

[Ferd42]

Imperial effort is going to rely on Indian troops in Asia

Interestingly I think we might see fewer India troops than OTL. The Indian Army can only recruit via voleenteering and without the pressure and threat of the Burma campaign, the impertus to join up will be reduced. Futhermore a lot formations that OTL fought in Europe can be sent out East ITTL.

 

[Bougnas]

What about France?

They're still, by reputation, the greatest military power in Europe. Their rival for that just turned in on itself. They don't lose however many soldiers as I'm assuming WW2 generally is butterflied. They don't catastrophically lose their prestige, and thus their colonial position isn't challenged.

Though then again, I know how fragile the then system of government was.

Not fragile enough to cripple them, especially since by the time of the TL they were on track to fixing their economy and industry. I haven't followed the TL so I can't say right now but at most you just miss the truly "oh shit moments" in 1939 and 40 that allowed for some more promising social, industrial and military programs to start.

Edit: having read the TL yeah, seems like they will be okay. Basically post-Munich's Daladier mobilizing the industry and reforming the country to work again coupled with British demand.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Sorry for the lack of recent updates, I'm wrapping up my MA (which has involved a surprising amount of travel) so the TL isn't even on the back-burner right now. It's not cancelled, I just figured I'd just let you know not to expect an update any earlier than November.


Hitler dying is largely a consequence of the PoD and the way the ripples hit Europe. Some on this thread had been noting it as a possible, if not likely, consequence for years now. The civil war is somewhat more a case of author fiat, I wanted to write a "realistic" (ie early and limited) Nazi civil war because I find the Nazi Victory = apocalyptic civil war trope to be extremely tiresome.


Alternatively we might speculate a little further ahead. Who else is wanked the most by there being no WWII?

Britain? Well they aren't getting dragged into a far more costly war closer to home.

The Soviets? They aren't being gutted by Barbarossa for the foreseeable future.

Germany? The civil war will suck, but cancelling their national suicide and subsequent partition would be one hell of a trade off, especially if the civil war leaves their dominant economic position in central and southern Europe intact.

Well I suppose if you feel that your MA is more important then our selfish enjoyment of this timeline we will just have put up with this delay.

(flounces off in a petulant huff)

 

[GrahamB]

Interestingly I think we might see fewer India troops than OTL. The Indian Army can only recruit via voleenteering and without the pressure and threat of the Burma campaign, the impertus to join up will be reduced. Futhermore a lot formations that OTL fought in Europe can be sent out East ITTL.

Fair point.

 

[sarahz]

Interestingly I think we might see fewer India troops than OTL. The Indian Army can only recruit via voleenteering and without the pressure and threat of the Burma campaign, the impertus to join up will be reduced. Futhermore a lot formations that OTL fought in Europe can be sent out East ITTL.

Maybe there is less need but there was never much sign that the British ever lacked the ability to recruit troops in India.

 

[raharris1973]

Sorry for the lack of recent updates, I'm wrapping up my MA (which has involved a surprising amount of travel) so the TL isn't even on the back-burner right now. It's not cancelled, I just figured I'd just let you know not to expect an update any earlier than November.


Hitler dying is largely a consequence of the PoD and the way the ripples hit Europe. Some on this thread had been noting it as a possible, if not likely, consequence for years now. The civil war is somewhat more a case of author fiat, I wanted to write a "realistic" (ie early and limited) Nazi civil war because I find the Nazi Victory = apocalyptic civil war trope to be extremely tiresome.


Alternatively we might speculate a little further ahead. Who else is wanked the most by there being no WWII?

Britain? Well they aren't getting dragged into a far more costly war closer to home.

The Soviets? They aren't being gutted by Barbarossa for the foreseeable future.

Germany? The civil war will suck, but cancelling their national suicide and subsequent partition would be one hell of a trade off, especially if the civil war leaves their dominant economic position in central and southern Europe intact.

Well-justified, and as your life goes on, we're grateful for everything we've gotten so far, and for any prospect of continuation in the future, whenever that happens. Best of luck in your academic, employment, and personal endeavours! My apologies if I've been been over-opinionated or stirdent in any of my commentary on preferred/disfavored outcomes. Doing a great job.

On the "who gets wanked" without WWII? I would say, relative to OTL, all three you mention would get 'wanked' in an absolute sense of domestic welfare compared to OTL. The British probably the least. In a geopolitical reach sense, the Soviets don't appear to be getting wanked. But beyond the three powers mentioned, its other, smaller players that really get wanked compared to OTL - Poland! Arguably Italy, not getting fought and picked over. France, not getting conquered and occupied. European Jewry and Roma.
I agree with GrahamB on China unless the UK settles with Japan in a way that let's the Sino-Japanese fighting bleed on.

 

[michael1]

Maybe there is less need but there was never much sign that the British ever lacked the ability to recruit troops in India.

More or less agree. The issue generally wasn't the availability of recruits but the availability of desirable recruits. The British wanted to keep the army loyal to the raj and so tended to recruit in certain areas and from certain groups (the martial races) as part of a divide and rule policy. The impact of the Eastern war was to relax these constraints on what the British were willing to do, not on the desire of other groups within India to join a (relatively) well paid and well regarded institution.