Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings
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I absolutely love your TL and in particular your Henry and KathrynThanksI’m glad you are enjoying it and I always appreciate a comment
Section Eighty-Five - 1575
Guess who's not dead?!?
“Queen Kathryn Tudor had four unmarried uncles. Two were never considered: King Henri of Navarre was to old and Queen Kathryn had no wish to risk the union of England and Navarre and Archbishop Thomas Tudor had no wish to marry. That left Duke Francis of Chartes, the son of Princess Renee, and Lord Edmund Tudor, the son of Baroness Willoughby de Eresby. Duke Francis was four years older than Princess Margaret and Lord Edmund was but a year older.
Duke Francis was eighteen years old, tall and of dark hair. He was charming and widely regarded as an exemplary young man. Duke Francis had not spent much time in England, having taken possession of the Duchy of Chartes at a young age. So, to get to know her potential son-in-law, Queen Kathryn Tudor sent for her uncle, inviting him to visit England.
“Francis Tudor, Duke of Chartes would spend almost two months in England. It appears that, Duke Francis was too much like Queen Kathryn. Both forceful and determined to be right, they didn’t get along and so, after several months he returned to Chartes and Kathryn Tudor sent for her grandfather and Edmund Tudor, requesting they return to England.”
“Throughout April, May, and June [1] of 1575, as Kathryn Tudor waited for the return of her grandfather and young Edmund Tudor, the Imperial Ambassador continued to press the suit of Charles Habsburg. The eldest son of Emperor Arthur Habsburg was the same age as Princess Margaret, and according to the ambassador, the most Christlike young man.
The marriage would put to rest the claim of Mary Tudor, Kathryn Tudor’s Aunt, and would ease the tension that had existed between England and the Holy Roman Empire for the past few decades. But to Kathryn Tudor the marriage felt too much like capitulation.”
[1] It took a while for Prince Henry to return to England, he kept getting distracted.
“The prevailing theory is that Kathryn Tudor entertained the Imperial Ambassador as an effort to disguise her evaluation of her young uncles. That if they didn’t know they were being, she would be able to determine their true characters.”
“Queen Kathryn Tudor had four unmarried uncles. Two were never considered: King Henri of Navarre was to old and Queen Kathryn had no wish to risk the union of England and Navarre and Archbishop Thomas Tudor had no wish to marry. That left Duke Francis of Chartes, the son of Princess Renee, and Lord Edmund Tudor, the son of Baroness Willoughby de Eresby. Duke Francis was four years older than Princess Margaret and Lord Edmund was but a year older.
Duke Francis was eighteen years old, tall and of dark hair. He was charming and widely regarded as an exemplary young man. Duke Francis had not spent much time in England, having taken possession of the Duchy of Chartes at a young age. So, to get to know her potential son-in-law, Queen Kathryn Tudor sent for her uncle, inviting him to visit England.
Tammie Waltherson, “For the Tudors’ It’s All About Family”
“Francis Tudor, Duke of Chartes would spend almost two months in England. It appears that, Duke Francis was too much like Queen Kathryn. Both forceful and determined to be right, they didn’t get along and so, after several months he returned to Chartes and Kathryn Tudor sent for her grandfather and Edmund Tudor, requesting they return to England.”
Thomas Nelson, “Kathryn Tudor and the Golden Era”
“Throughout April, May, and June [1] of 1575, as Kathryn Tudor waited for the return of her grandfather and young Edmund Tudor, the Imperial Ambassador continued to press the suit of Charles Habsburg. The eldest son of Emperor Arthur Habsburg was the same age as Princess Margaret, and according to the ambassador, the most Christlike young man.
The marriage would put to rest the claim of Mary Tudor, Kathryn Tudor’s Aunt, and would ease the tension that had existed between England and the Holy Roman Empire for the past few decades. But to Kathryn Tudor the marriage felt too much like capitulation.”
Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”
[1] It took a while for Prince Henry to return to England, he kept getting distracted.
“The prevailing theory is that Kathryn Tudor entertained the Imperial Ambassador as an effort to disguise her evaluation of her young uncles. That if they didn’t know they were being, she would be able to determine their true characters.”
Elizabeth Tudor, Duchess of Calais, “Kathryn Tudor”
Yep, that sounds like Henry! LOL.
Glad to see you back!
Considering how fickle OTL Henry VIII was, I've concluded he must be down right spazy without the weight of the crown.
And thanks, it's good to be back
Top Prince Henry Movies
AN: Not Dead Hope you enjoy the update even if it doesn’t move the timeline forward.
Top Seven Prince Henry Tudor Movies, in no particular order, a review by Hailey Lane, the definitive Tudor Reviewer
The Prince and His Princess (1949)
Most people think of the Broadway play since they haven’t seen the original movie, but Prince and His Princess is a stellar musical and rollicking good fun. It was actually the Prince and His Princess that got me started on Tudors. Danny Kaye, playing a dashing Prince Henry, sings and swings a sword in what was probably great choreography for the day (but now looks just a little silly). But you can tell Kaye is having just as much fun as the audience. Additionally, Basil Rathbone plays a wonderfully debonair Cesare Borgia and Barbara Bates is sweet as Princess Reneé.
And yeah, it’s campy, the Father’s Loss le motif is a little overused, and all the downer parts of Tudor history are totally ignored, but damn, you can’t help smiling after watching it.
The Decade of Anne Boleyn (2013)
Carey Mulligan has always been a problematic Anne Boleyn for me. Mulligan does a stellar job and watching her you get swept up in the story. But, for me, she comes off just too harsh to be Anne Boleyn. All of her contemporaries agree, for good or ill, that Anne Boleyn was charming. And Mulligan’s Anne Boleyn is just too sharp.
But the sharpness fits to the story. Unlike other movies about Anne Boleyn, her marriage to Prince Henry doesn’t take center stage. Instead the movie focuses on the religious efforts of Anne Boleyn and all she accomplished during the last decade of her life. Mulligan’s Anne Boleyn is driven and committed to the cause.
On the whole a very textured movie, and even with the conflicting interpretations of Anne Boleyn, I really enjoy this movie.
Lovely, Lovely Anne (2002)
Somewhere between a RomCom and a Historical Drama, Lovely, Lovely Anne is probably the most watched Tudor film of all time. Anne Hathaway has always been my favorite Anne Boleyn. Hathaway works well with Kenneth Charles Branagh who plays Prince Henry. Poignant and funny, thoughtful and playful, the movie straddles the cheer and joy of the courtship of Anne Boleyn and Prince Henry with the stress struggles from Prince Henry’s responsibilities as Regent for his son.
The film does pretty much drop the religious struggles of the day, choosing to focus on the Tudor family and exaggerate the disproval regarding Anne Boleyn and Prince Henry’s marriage. But it’s got great dialog and amazing costuming. All around great movie.
Anne and Reneé (2019)
Anne and Reneé simultaneously portrays two of Prince Henry’s marriages: his second to Anne Boleyn and his second to last with Princess Reneé.
Callum Turner wonderfully portrays just how dependent Prince Henry was on Anne Boleyn. Hailee Steinfeld does a wonderful job capturing Anne’s determination and religious fervor, really really intense religious fervor.
Jennifer Garner captures the balance between Princess Reneé’s fighting spirit and a sort of dignified fragility. But the best is Jeff Goldblum as Prince Henry. There’s one point during the movie where Prince Henry and Princess Reneé are talking religion and Prince Henry call her Anne, it’s a brutal heartrending scene, and Goldblum captures is perfectly.
The Two Princes (1995)
Now, normally I don’t like remakes. In general I think they’re pointless and derivative. But, as hard as it it to admit, The Two Princes (1995) remake of 2 Princes (1972), is much better than the original. Both films portray Cesare Borgia’s time as Prince Henry’s hostage, but after that they differ. 2 Princes (1972) is campy cheesy B-Flick. The Two Princes is an Indi film before Indie was a thing.
While neither film has anything resembling a plot, just series of loosely related events with no climax or finish, The Two Princes comes of as purposeful, a slice of life, instead of 2 Princes’s “I ran out of funds and can’t finish” wet mess.
Kalmar’s Birth (1965)
Kalmar’s Birth is the only Prince Tudor film to make this list that isn’t in English. The Kalmarian Film is at the heart a national film. It is rife with Kalmarian imagery and allusions towards future monarchs of the Kalmar Union.
One of the more positive portrayals of King John Albert, the film focuses on the effect both King John Albert And Prince Henry on Queen Mathilde. As the daughter of King John Albert, much of the film is taken up by flashbacks to her childhood. Even though Queen Mathilde never met her illustrious great-grandfather in person, the film does an amazing job of showing the effect Prince Henry has on her life.
The Last Trip (2014)
For all the setting lends itself to an Historical Drama, The Last Trip is most commonly known as a Father’s Day film. Many channels play the movie every year on father’s Day. The majority of the film deals with Prince Henry and the variety in his relationships with his many children.
The lion’s share of the film dwells on the relationship between Prince Henry and his youngest, Edmund Tudor. Thomas Brodie-Sangster does a wonderful job as young Edmund Tudor and plays off Daniel Craig’s Prince Henry (though Craig is much to young to play Prince Henry during the last trip) wonderfully.
Hope you enjoy the update even if it doesn’t move the timeline forward. Top Seven Prince Henry Tudor Movies, in no particular order, a review by Hailey Lane, the definitive Tudor Reviewer
The Prince and His Princess (1949)
Most people think of the Broadway play since they haven’t seen the original movie, but Prince and His Princess is a stellar musical and rollicking good fun. It was actually the Prince and His Princess that got me started on Tudors. Danny Kaye, playing a dashing Prince Henry, sings and swings a sword in what was probably great choreography for the day (but now looks just a little silly). But you can tell Kaye is having just as much fun as the audience. Additionally, Basil Rathbone plays a wonderfully debonair Cesare Borgia and Barbara Bates is sweet as Princess Reneé.
And yeah, it’s campy, the Father’s Loss le motif is a little overused, and all the downer parts of Tudor history are totally ignored, but damn, you can’t help smiling after watching it.
The Decade of Anne Boleyn (2013)
Carey Mulligan has always been a problematic Anne Boleyn for me. Mulligan does a stellar job and watching her you get swept up in the story. But, for me, she comes off just too harsh to be Anne Boleyn. All of her contemporaries agree, for good or ill, that Anne Boleyn was charming. And Mulligan’s Anne Boleyn is just too sharp.
But the sharpness fits to the story. Unlike other movies about Anne Boleyn, her marriage to Prince Henry doesn’t take center stage. Instead the movie focuses on the religious efforts of Anne Boleyn and all she accomplished during the last decade of her life. Mulligan’s Anne Boleyn is driven and committed to the cause.
On the whole a very textured movie, and even with the conflicting interpretations of Anne Boleyn, I really enjoy this movie.
Lovely, Lovely Anne (2002)
Somewhere between a RomCom and a Historical Drama, Lovely, Lovely Anne is probably the most watched Tudor film of all time. Anne Hathaway has always been my favorite Anne Boleyn. Hathaway works well with Kenneth Charles Branagh who plays Prince Henry. Poignant and funny, thoughtful and playful, the movie straddles the cheer and joy of the courtship of Anne Boleyn and Prince Henry with the stress struggles from Prince Henry’s responsibilities as Regent for his son.
The film does pretty much drop the religious struggles of the day, choosing to focus on the Tudor family and exaggerate the disproval regarding Anne Boleyn and Prince Henry’s marriage. But it’s got great dialog and amazing costuming. All around great movie.
Anne and Reneé (2019)
Anne and Reneé simultaneously portrays two of Prince Henry’s marriages: his second to Anne Boleyn and his second to last with Princess Reneé.
Callum Turner wonderfully portrays just how dependent Prince Henry was on Anne Boleyn. Hailee Steinfeld does a wonderful job capturing Anne’s determination and religious fervor, really really intense religious fervor.
Jennifer Garner captures the balance between Princess Reneé’s fighting spirit and a sort of dignified fragility. But the best is Jeff Goldblum as Prince Henry. There’s one point during the movie where Prince Henry and Princess Reneé are talking religion and Prince Henry call her Anne, it’s a brutal heartrending scene, and Goldblum captures is perfectly.
The Two Princes (1995)
Now, normally I don’t like remakes. In general I think they’re pointless and derivative. But, as hard as it it to admit, The Two Princes (1995) remake of 2 Princes (1972), is much better than the original. Both films portray Cesare Borgia’s time as Prince Henry’s hostage, but after that they differ. 2 Princes (1972) is campy cheesy B-Flick. The Two Princes is an Indi film before Indie was a thing.
While neither film has anything resembling a plot, just series of loosely related events with no climax or finish, The Two Princes comes of as purposeful, a slice of life, instead of 2 Princes’s “I ran out of funds and can’t finish” wet mess.
Kalmar’s Birth (1965)
Kalmar’s Birth is the only Prince Tudor film to make this list that isn’t in English. The Kalmarian Film is at the heart a national film. It is rife with Kalmarian imagery and allusions towards future monarchs of the Kalmar Union.
One of the more positive portrayals of King John Albert, the film focuses on the effect both King John Albert And Prince Henry on Queen Mathilde. As the daughter of King John Albert, much of the film is taken up by flashbacks to her childhood. Even though Queen Mathilde never met her illustrious great-grandfather in person, the film does an amazing job of showing the effect Prince Henry has on her life.
The Last Trip (2014)
For all the setting lends itself to an Historical Drama, The Last Trip is most commonly known as a Father’s Day film. Many channels play the movie every year on father’s Day. The majority of the film deals with Prince Henry and the variety in his relationships with his many children.
The lion’s share of the film dwells on the relationship between Prince Henry and his youngest, Edmund Tudor. Thomas Brodie-Sangster does a wonderful job as young Edmund Tudor and plays off Daniel Craig’s Prince Henry (though Craig is much to young to play Prince Henry during the last trip) wonderfully.
Thanks everyone for your comments. I will try and be more regular but no promises.
The timeline is plotted out to go up to Henry’s death and then with a few look sees at the modern world.
Which, given your comments on another thread plus Henry's age, I fear won't be far off... Ah, well, it's been a wonderful ride!
My dearest Cate, i am absolutely in Love with your Storyline.
Magnificent idea and writing.
I so glad you are enjoying it! And thank you for your lovely comment!
Section Eighty-Six - 1575
“Prince Henry and Edmund Tudor would arrive in England early in July of 1575. Very quickly young Edmund Tudor charmed Kathryn Tudor. His unique (for a Tudor) ability to allow another center stage made him a favorite of the court. What’s more, he managed to befriend Princess Margaret of Wales.
The young heir to the throne had few close companions. But the two had been close before Edmund Tudor accompanied his father on Prince Henry’s tour of Europe; Edmund Tudor had been part of the household of young John Tudor (Princess Margaret’s first betrothed). The shared childhood appears to have allowed Edmund Tudor and Princess Margaret to grow close.”
“A through study of the literature of the time indicates that Margaret I of England suffered from severe social anxiety and was constantly plagued by doubts regarding the intentions of those around her. The fact that it was probably a good idea to doubt these intentions must not have helped.
But, several key members of the Tudor family, her great-grandfather Prince Henry, her cousin Eleanor Duchess of Suffolk, Edmund Tudor her childhood friend and husband, to name a few, were trusted to deal candidly with her. As such, it is from their writings that the true Princess Margaret is discovered.”
“Psychology Historians have been arguing over the mindset of Margaret Stewart for almost as long as they been arguing over Prince Henry’s diagnostic. The fact that they have been debating it this long does not add any credence to their claims. Psychology History is still very much the quack subject that is has always been, no more accurate than astrology.”
“Queen Kathryn Tudor would announce the betrothal of Princess Margaret Stewart of Wales to Edmund Tudor late in August of fifteen seventy-five, while the Imperial Ambassador was still at the English Court championing the cause of Charles Habsburg.
This would cause some problems.”
The young heir to the throne had few close companions. But the two had been close before Edmund Tudor accompanied his father on Prince Henry’s tour of Europe; Edmund Tudor had been part of the household of young John Tudor (Princess Margaret’s first betrothed). The shared childhood appears to have allowed Edmund Tudor and Princess Margaret to grow close.”
Thomas Nelson, “Kathryn Tudor and the Golden Era”
“A through study of the literature of the time indicates that Margaret I of England suffered from severe social anxiety and was constantly plagued by doubts regarding the intentions of those around her. The fact that it was probably a good idea to doubt these intentions must not have helped.
But, several key members of the Tudor family, her great-grandfather Prince Henry, her cousin Eleanor Duchess of Suffolk, Edmund Tudor her childhood friend and husband, to name a few, were trusted to deal candidly with her. As such, it is from their writings that the true Princess Margaret is discovered.”
Jims Oliver, “The Tudor Diagnostic”
“Psychology Historians have been arguing over the mindset of Margaret Stewart for almost as long as they been arguing over Prince Henry’s diagnostic. The fact that they have been debating it this long does not add any credence to their claims. Psychology History is still very much the quack subject that is has always been, no more accurate than astrology.”
Karl Tudor, Internet Demagogue
“Queen Kathryn Tudor would announce the betrothal of Princess Margaret Stewart of Wales to Edmund Tudor late in August of fifteen seventy-five, while the Imperial Ambassador was still at the English Court championing the cause of Charles Habsburg.
This would cause some problems.”
Oliver Gotham, “Arthur and the Throne of England, Scotland, and Ireland”
Section Eight-Seven - 1575
“Alone the betrothal of Princess Margaret of Wales and Edmund Tudor may not have been enough to spark the Third Succession War; the Hapsburgs had few allies. Only a few die-hard Catholics wished to see Arthur Hapsburg as King of England. The Castilian Hapsburgs had their own problems and the Trastamara’s weren’t currently getting along with the Hapsburgs on the whole. [1] Even France, with Queen Helene as Arthur Hapsburg’s beloved sister, was rather done with the whole thing.
So, if it had only been the betrothal there might not have been a third Succession War. But, it wasn’t only the betrothal.
[1] A rather long story, and can be found in Chapter Twenty-Three, but the short version is they aren’t talking.
“November 1575, Prince James Stewart died leaving King James of Scotland in something of a bind: no obvious heir. But, never fear, King James had a plan. His son by Grace O’Malley, Seamus, was a bonny charming fellow. And his legitimacy could be dealt with by swearing, that yes, King James and Grace O’Malley were totally married….. secretly. With Grace O’Malley having passed away the year before, there was no one to naysay.
To shore up the claim of young Seamus, now called James (I know it’s confusing), he was betrothed to his cousin Princess Margaret Stewart (the daughter of Queen Margaret of Fance, not Princess of Wales). Princess Margaret had a pretty good claim herself.
There were only two other claims. Princess Marjorie, King James’s eldest daughter had recently died giving birth to a daughter, Infanta Catalina Habsburg of Aragon, and King Ferdinand the Old was too busy finding a bride for his heir to bother with Infanta Catalina’s claim.
It was the claim of King James’s sister that was the problem.”
So, if it had only been the betrothal there might not have been a third Succession War. But, it wasn’t only the betrothal.
Matheo Henrikson, “The 1500’s Was A Crazy Century, and It Was Mostly the Tudors’ Fault”
[1] A rather long story, and can be found in Chapter Twenty-Three, but the short version is they aren’t talking.
“November 1575, Prince James Stewart died leaving King James of Scotland in something of a bind: no obvious heir. But, never fear, King James had a plan. His son by Grace O’Malley, Seamus, was a bonny charming fellow. And his legitimacy could be dealt with by swearing, that yes, King James and Grace O’Malley were totally married….. secretly. With Grace O’Malley having passed away the year before, there was no one to naysay.
To shore up the claim of young Seamus, now called James (I know it’s confusing), he was betrothed to his cousin Princess Margaret Stewart (the daughter of Queen Margaret of Fance, not Princess of Wales). Princess Margaret had a pretty good claim herself.
There were only two other claims. Princess Marjorie, King James’s eldest daughter had recently died giving birth to a daughter, Infanta Catalina Habsburg of Aragon, and King Ferdinand the Old was too busy finding a bride for his heir to bother with Infanta Catalina’s claim.
It was the claim of King James’s sister that was the problem.”
Maximillian Green, “Scotland, the Isolation Years”
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It’s the conceit of the timeline. And besides, people did live this long even back then it was just much rarer. Him still being alive is beginning to stretch credibility but is not yet in the realm of impossibility.