Henry Tudor, Heretic and Father of Kings

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Cate13, Nov 4, 2018.

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  1. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

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    Nov 16, 2018
    New Pamplona, after the Capital? Or else pull an Australia and name the big cities after members of the Royal family, so Henrytown, Eleanor, Jeanne, etc. OOh, Jeanna? Sounds a bit Game of Thronesy, but it could work.
     
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  2. RobinP Member

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    Jan 2, 2019
    Maybe something in Basque? Henri is Endika in Basque, Endikia or Endikana?
     
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  3. RobinP Member

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    Jan 2, 2019
    Also, can I just say, you've got some pretty hilarious lines mixed in with everything :)

    This does a great job of showing how most of the Tudor were attention hogs.

    I can just feel the exasperation, and you did a good job building up the rivalry between the two other users.

    I feel like this might be the only way to deal with your Henry Tudor, nod an say 'sure dad' and then do what ever they were planning to do in the first place.
     
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  4. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    Why thank you so much! I'm glad you are enjoying the timeline!

    The Tudors do love to be at the center of attention don't they?

    Thanks

    That's pretty much what they all do. "Yep, Dad, I'll get right on that."

    Thanks again for commenting. It always makes my day.
     
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  5. WillVictoria Hasn't happened yet though

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    Apr 3, 2014
    Maybe Henrico
     
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  6. Threadmarks: Section Eighty - 1574

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    “Prince Henry would spend several months in Denmark before returning to Hesse-Kassel to retrieve Edmund Tudor. Then Prince Henry’s party would travel onto Julich-Cleves-Berg to visit Duke John Tudor.

    The reunion between Prince Henry and Duke John was perhaps the least emotional of Prince Henry’s last trip. The two had never been close, Duke John having been raised by his elder brother, Charles Tudor. In many ways, Prince Henry and Duke John were strangers.”
    Irene Whent, “Prince Henry’s Last Trip”​


    “Even more so than the verses morning the deaths of Anne, (daughter of Anne Boleyn and died at age seven), Francis (son of Catherine of Navarre and possibly assassinated), Arthur (son of Sybylle of Cleves and died at age three), and Eleanor (daughter of Anne Boleyn and murdered), the verse of A Father’s Lossdedicated to Duke John is perhaps the most poignant. While the lyrics of Little Love, Little Boy Sleeps, Lament of Mine, and Unlived and Unanswered[1] all speak of death, Yesteryearspeaks of lost chances.

    Yesteryeardeals with the realization that there were words that should have been said, and the chance to say them has passed. The raw grief and loss found in the lyrics continues to haunt me.”
    Celine Dion’s answer as to why she insists on including Yesteryearin her cover of A Father’s Loss. [2] Parenthetical details added for publication. ​

    [1] All fourteen verses of A Father’s Losshave received colloquial titles to differentiate them.
    [2] Due to the length of the individual verses, very few recordings include all fourteen verses. Among the most commonly chosen verses are Bright Bride, Little Boy Sleeps, Beyond Me, Merry Margaret, and In Step about Elizabeth Tudor, Arthur Tudor, Thomas Tudor, Margaret Tudor, and Henri Tudor respectively.


    “John Tudor, more commonly known as Johann, was one of the more important players in the early history of the German State. While he himself would not live to see the organization of the German State, the foundation he laid, the sense of nationality he left his sons, would be instrumental in the in birth of the German State. In fact, his grandson Karl Tudor [1] would be one of the principle writers of the Constitution of the German State.”
    A.E. Bell, “The German State”​

    [1] Karl Tudor is perhaps the most common name in German. Charles Tudor was particularly beloved of the people of Julich-Cleves-Berg after his many years as regent, and this popularity prompted an upsurgence of boys named Karl. Then, Johann Tudor’s six sons and forty-seven grandsons would ensure the prevalence of the surname Tudor. This would combine to make Karl Tudor, much like John Smith in Glorianna, serve as a placeholder name.
     
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  7. Threadmarks: Section Eighty-One - 1574

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    “In contrast with the previous stops in his Last Trip, Prince Henry would spend most of his time in Julich-Cleves-Berg deeply involved with the growing Awakened presence in Julich-Cleves-Berg, not with family. This would cause some friction between the religious majority—the Lutherans—and the religious minority—the Awakeners.

    Three of his most well-known sermons, include the Christian Struggle, would be given during this time. Initially thought lost to time, the content and doctrine was religiously [1] speculated. But, several German clerks had diligently record Prince Henry during his visit. Due to religious tension, the transcripts of these sermons would be zealously guarded until the organization of the Awakened Church of the German State, upon which the German Awakeners felt secure enough to publish them.

    Initially, the authenticity of the sermons would be doubted but further analysis would cause the seven Awakened Churches to accept the sermons as doctrine. Now, almost no one remembers the uncertainty that surround the original publishing.”
    Rachel Rowell, “Father of the Reawakening, and a Good Father”​

    [1] Pun intended


    “Possibly the most well know of Prince Henry’s sermons, The Christian Struggle, discusses both his own mental and emotional concerns and the trials of the Christ. There was a distinct comparison between the two, for Prince Henry oft compared himself to the Christ, subtly of course, as he wouldn’t want people to think he is prideful.

    The Christian Struggleis traditionally read at Easter, though it is a popular lesson topic throughout the year. Originally read by clerics to their specific churches, for the past several decades, due to technological advances, the reading has been done by the individual Deacons and broadcast by country. But, in the spirit of cooperation, this year the reading will be done by Deacon Endika Mendoza, Deacon of the Awakened Church of Navarre. It will be broadcast live, with re-broadcasts for those whose time zone made the live broadcast difficult.

    Before Deacon Endika was chosen, Deacon Thomas Brandon, Deacon of the Awakened Church of England, and Deacon Petelo Alaatatoa, Deacon of the Awakened Church of the Samoan Islands, were considered.”
    Press Release for the Coalition of Awakened Churches ​
     
  8. Threadmarks: Section Eighty-Two - 1574

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    “By the 1575 it was clear to the English court that John Tudor would not be the next King of England; he wouldn’t live that long. We know believe that John Tudor was diabetic, a condition the 1500s had no hope of treating. His health would continue to fail, and he would pass a way early in 1576.”
    Thomas Nelson, “Kathryn Tudor and the Golden Era”​


    “Duke Johann received news of his son’s death shortly before the departure of Prince Henry. Prince Henry’s journal indicates that he offered to push back his departure, to stay and support his son. But, Duke Johann would decline Prince Henry’s offer, sending him on his way. It would be the last time Duke Johann saw his father.”
    Irene Whent, “Prince Henry’s Last Trip”​


    “It is believed that the verse Yesteryear was written directly after Prince Henry’s visit to Julich-Cleves-Berg. While Yesteryear is a particularly melancholy verse, this is not the reason for its lack of popularity. Many other popular verses of A Father’s Loss are melancholy. No, it’s because the grief found in Yesteryear isn’t a clean grief: no justice has been served [1] and there is no assurance the lost one is in better place. [2]

    There is just something broken, and there isn’t anything anyone can do to fix it. Yesteryear does an amazing job showing that not truly being Duke Johann father was one of Prince Henry’s greatest regrets in life.

    Perhaps the saddest words found in A Father’s Loss are found in Yesteryear, ‘For all the misplaced yesterdays, and all the careless yesteryears.’”
    Everett Jacobs, “A Father’s Loss: An Analysis of Each Verse”​

    [1] Little Boy Sleepsand Unlived and Unanswered, the verses for Prince Francis and Queen Mother Eleanor respectively, both speak of Prince Henry’s quest for justice for their deaths.

    [2] Little Loveand Lament of Mine, the verses for Lady Anne Tudor and Duke Arthur respectively, both speak of the deceased children as if they were in heaven with angels and that Prince Henry would see his children again. Additionally, both Little Love and Lament of Mine are commonly sung at funerals.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  9. RobinP Member

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    Jan 2, 2019
    This is a fun little detail that doesn’t often get considered in world building.

    This is hilarious!! ‘he wouldn’t want people to think he is prideful’ I can’t tell if this is sarcastic in universe but either way it’s hilarious.


    I think i get what you are trying to convey here, but I feel you could have spent more time telling us about Prince Henry’s regret and less about the song. We’ve heard a lot about the song in the last couple sections.
     
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  10. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it!

    I actually hadn't considered that it might be sarcastic in-universe. I'm not sure the people of the 1500s were chill enough to allow the mocking of their church founder. Could that be a more modern tradition? Anyone have any thoughts?

    That's fair, I have been talking a lot about that song. I was trying the whole show not tell thing, anyone have any thoughts?
     
  11. Threadmarks: Section Eighty-Three - 1574

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2016
    Hi everyone! Sorry for the delay. I started a new job and lost all free time.


    “The death of John Tudor left Kathryn Tudor with a problem. Once again Margaret of Wales had no betrothed. What’s more, the pool of potential husbands that met Kathryn Tudor’s exacting criteria [1] had shrunk considerably. [2] It was at this point that Arthur Habsburg, Holy Roman Emperor, sent an ambassador to England. It would be the first time since Katie’s War that the Holy Roman Empire’s ambassador had been welcome in England.

    The ambassador came with a simple compromise: the marriage of Charles Habsburg, the teenage son of Emperor Arthur and Empress Margaret, and Margaret of Wales. This would officially put an end to the decades old hostility between England and the Holy Roman Empire and tie the two claims together. Religious matters were studiously unmentioned.”
    Oliver Gotham, “Arthur and the Throne of England, Scotland, and Ireland” ​

    [1] Of the House of Tudor, close in age to Margaret of Wales, and not likely to inherit anything of importance
    [2] Both of Duke Francis’s sons were spoken for and after Duke Johann’s heir his next son was still a very young child.


    “While Kathryn Tudor entertained the Emperor’s ambassador, personal records indicate she had no desire to accept the Emperor’s proposal. For Charles Habsburg met only one of Kathryn Tudor’s requirements, and the lesser one at that. What’s more, she had every reason to suspect that the Habsburgs would push for England to rejoin the Catholic Church, something the Awakened Kathryn would not abide.

    It appears that despite Kathryn Tudor’s intention to refuse the Emperor’s offer, she hoped to use the visit as a stepping stone to peace or at least a cessation of hostility. She may have succeeded if she hadn’t announced Margaret of Wales betrothal while the Emperor’s ambassador was still in residence, expecting a response to the Emperor’s proposal.”
    Thomas Nelson, “Kathryn Tudor and the Golden Era”​
     
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  12. FalconHonour Well-Known Member

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    Nov 16, 2018
    Oops...
     
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  13. Some Bloke Well-Known Member

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    A small village in Arkhamshire.
    Just caught up.

    Even though the reformation is completely unrecognisable from OTL, it's interesting how it still influences the development of nationalism in Europe.
     
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  14. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    Yep! I figure Kathryn's due for a screw up right about now. After all, she is a Tudor with the temper and pride.
     
  15. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    I feel like religion and nationalism often end up intertwined, so it was fun to see the different ways it could have developed.
     
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  16. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Mar 22, 2012
    Well, the Emperor proposal also was super arrogant considering who he and his mother tried to usurp more than once Katheryn’s rightful crown (as her line is higher than his).
     
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  17. Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    Well, they are also Tudors, even if they have the Hapsburg name :D
     
  18. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Mar 22, 2012
    Tudor+Habsburg blood is a bad combination... Is practically a guarantee of arrogance and presumption
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  19. Threadmarks: Section Eighty-Three - 1575

    Cate13 Well-Known Member

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    Oct 25, 2016
    “We know Queen Kathryn turned from looking among her cousins for a groom for Princess Margaret, to looking among her uncles, on the third of April fifteen seventy-five. Or around that time. We know this because that is when she went to speak to Archbishop Thomas Tudor about a dispensation and Archbishop Tudor kept a detailed journal.

    Unfortunately for Queen Kathryn, Archbishop Tudor did not immediately assure her that her would grant her a dispensation if she wished; he was one of the few people who didn’t live in awe and a little fear of Queen Kathryn. Instead he turned from speaking with Queen Kathryn and began to pull books of the shelf: Tyndale’s Bible, the Tudor Bible, several of his father’s writings, some writings of Luthor’s, and more.

    Luckily for him, Queen Kathryn was more amused than offended, though she would organize an impromptu garden gathering right outside his window. According to Archbishop Tudor’s journals this was a common tactic of Queen Kathryn’s when she wanted to annoy him.”
    Nathan Hampson, “Keeping it Tudor, Queen Kathryn’s quest for a Tudor Dynasty” ​


    “If my most illustrious niece wishes a judgement, perhaps she would grant me the peace to judge?”
    Line from Archbishop Thomas Tudor’s journal​


    “In the end, it would be the genealogy of Moses that would decide the issue for Archbishop Tudor. According to the Sefer HaYashar, a Hebrew text that the Archbishop had acquired, Moses’s parents were nephew and aunt. According to the Archbishop’s notes, this was excused due to the necessity of only marrying within God’s people. The next several pages of Archbishop Tudor’s notes cite several other sources before concluding that just like it was important for Moses to be born of God’s people, it was necessary for the next Prince of England to be born a Tudor.

    Kathryn Tudor would get her dispensation.”
    Leslie Wallace, “Archbishop Thomas Tudor” ​
     
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  20. isabella Well-Known Member

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    Mar 22, 2012
    Interesting... And looking back Katherine’s decision was foreshadowed well in advance (another son of Henry need to become King and both the youngest boys are around the right age for Margaret)
     
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