Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars

2. You hit the radar sites so that follow-up attacks escape detection and to keep the operators busy trying to save their own skins.
4. The units trying to sortie should have gotten engaged as soon as the tried to leave the harbor, at the latest before the planes arrived.
9. If you want to attack a heavily defended harbor, Bomb and strafe the AA guns, make them choose between personal survival and the fleet.
13. About radar, conducting air attacks on ships, coordination between air and naval forces, British tactics. How to conduct multiple missions in a day.
2. That's a good strategy for attacks spread out over a period of days, when you need to kill a target with one wave before it moves, waste of bombs as the radar stations blowing up warns them a raid is inbound as effectively as the radar detecting it. Edit: and Now that I think about it, you have another 20+ shipborne radars in the harbor to consider as well which will light off once the radar stations get attacked, not to mention the added friction of getting the timing of the radar attacks right
4. The MAS boats can't afford to loiter outside of the harbor for hours, and would have to do so at a distance in daylight due to shore batteries, and if they get spotted before the planes get seen, that's more warning for the defenders
9. Uh they did, that's what the fighters did and first wave of dive bombers was hitting the ships with the best AA armament. Ships are hard targets, and with enclosed armored mounts you need a direct bomb hit, or nearly so, to be effective and these are relatively small targets, strafing is effective against light and medium AA, which the twin and triple engine bombers flew above
13. First the Germans and Italians loath each other here, they don't have that many observers. Secondly the Italians know of radar, know how to conduct air attacks on ships as well as the Germans and coordinate between arms. The only thing they might learn is the ability to conduct multiple sorties a day a a large scale, but that isn't something that can be quickly and easily implemented and something the Germans had trouble with after the Battle of France OTL



Edit: Yes that Italians could have done better, but they did extremely well to do as well as they did, and them being perfect would be implausible. Everybody screws up something
 
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Part 6-48 Fall of Europe, Historiography
…The Germans entered an empty Paris on the 18th and what’s left of French morale completely collapse. Units began to surrender en mass and the German advance began to accelerate. The Maginot Line was completely cut off by the 25th, three days after the Germans began to reach the Atlantic coast. Even the Maginot Line itself was not immune, with token attacks from Army Group South achieving surprising success as defenders decided that there was no point in dying for France if the war was lost, and the entire depth of the line was penetrated in multiple places for minimal losses. Tunisia was not quite as big of a disaster, but the Italian outflanking of the Mareth line on the 24th did nothing at all to improve the French position.

By the 25th it had become obvious to the French government that there was no point in further fighting and it was time to ask for an armistice. There was no longer any hope of stopping the Germans before they overran all of metropolitan France and eventually turning things around, and even if there was the costs of doing so would be worse than giving up now. Churchill and the British attempted to persuade them to fight on from Algeria but were dismissed as simply trying to fight the Germans to the last Frenchmen to improve the British bargaining position when it came time for them to throw in the towel.

At 9PM on the 25th the Chautemps government sent out a request for an armistice, something that Hitler agreed to just before midnight. At noon on the 27th at the site of the armistice of May 31st 1919 that ended the fighting in WWI, in the same exact railway car, the French agreed to the ruinous terms asked of Germany. 3/5ths of France would be occupied, all German political refugees surrendered, the French Army in Europe reduced to a police force and the French would pay all costs the Germans incurred in occupying them. These were terms far harsher than Germany had been given in 1919, and the French complained about this but the German response was simple. Germany had been undefeated in the field in 1919, the same could not be said about France in 1941. In the end the French had no choice and accepted the terms to go into effect at noon the next day.

A similar armistice was signed with the Italians to go into effect at the same time shortly afterwards, but this was much more generous. The Italians would only occupy Nice, Savoy, Corsica and Tunisia and would not demand exorbitant occupation costs be paid.

At noon on June 28th the French campaign officially ended…

…The Germans had suffered 50,000 dead and missing in the battle of France and the low countries, along with 130,000 wounded. 1350 aircraft and 900 tanks were also lost. In return however they had killed 100,000 French, wounded 150,000 more and captured over 1.6 million, with 1300 aircraft and 2000 tanks destroyed or captured. The British lost a further 15,000 dead, 20,000 wounded and 150,000 taken prisoner when the dust settled, with the loss of 3,000 guns, 1,000 tanks and 1100 aircraft. The Free Poles suffered 5,000 dead and wounded and 10,000 prisoner.

It was an incredible victory by any standards, Hitler himself expected a million deaths in 6 months overrunning France, not 50,000 in little over 6 weeks, and he was more optimistic than most. However defeating France was merely half of the battle, as Britain still remained in the fight, though for how long was the question on everyone’s minds…

…Shortly after the armistice the French government moved from its temporary location in Bordeaux to a more permanent location in the spa town of Vichy. There the National Assembly voted to give Marshal Phillipe Petain and his supporters the power to write a new constitution to deal with the situation that France had found herself in by a margin of 588 to 70. This would be a more conservative, authoritarian state focused on traditional values, an answer to the excess liberalism and instability of the Third Republic that was blamed for the recent defeat. The slogan Work, Family, Fatherland replaced the traditional Liberty, Equality, Fraternity and Joan of Arc replaced Marianne as the personification of the state, all parts of a rejection of the decadence of the Third Republic.

Petain while nominally the head of state of the new Fourth Republic was too old and beginning to show signs of mental degradation, so was convinced to serve as President of the new Republic while another was Prime Minister.. The new Prime Minister was former Prime Minister Pierre-Etienne Flandin, a well established conservative politician who had served as the youngest prime minister in French history during the 30’s. Flandin however was in large degree outmaneuvered by his deputy Pierre Laval who often ended up setting the policies for the regime…

…While the French were forming the Fourth Republican government in Vichy the British formed a rival government in London. The leader of this government was Georges Mandel, Clemenceau’s right hand man and a former holder of multiple ministerial posts in multiple governments during the 30s. Mandel was the only choice, being the only French politician of ministerial rank to be willing to work with the British, he was however still a poor choice, being considered a natural deputy rather than a leader, lacking political weight and often being compared to a fish. He was also prominently a Jew, born with the name Rothschild, and was considered an aggressive warmonger by the French populace.

Mandel’s decision to go against the political consensus of the French establishment saw him lose what little political influence he had. He and his government immediately became the butt of jokes and propaganda and of the 140,000 French troops in Britian less than 4,000 agreed to join him, with the rest asking to be repatriated…

…In Belgium the government sheepishly returned to Brussels following the French armistice and begrudgingly admitted that the King had been right. King Leopold, having a good relationship with the Germans, was thus authorized to personally negotiate a deal with Germany…

…The Belgian agreement with Germany was simple. Germany would end its occupation of Belgian territory and free all Belgian prisoners. It would be allowed to maintain whatever troops on Belgian territory were needed for the air and naval defense of Germany, however these troops would be guests and under limited Belgian oversight. Belgium would further receive compensation for the damage caused by the German invasion, in the form of payments from France…

…About a third of Van Zeeland’s cabinet resigned rather than accept the agreement with Germany. Most of them simply withdrew from politics but Colonial Minister Vleeschauwer did not. He took a ship to the Congo and effectively went rogue as a one man government in exile, running the colony with a pro-British slant. King Leopold did not try to reign him in particularly hard as he was well aware that the Congo could not be reinforced and that Britian could take it if they wanted it enough. Allowing Vleeschauwer to act as he did thus allowed Belgium to keep a foot in both camps…

…Following the Belgian deal with the Germans Prime Minister Dirk Jan de Geer argued that the Netherlands should attempt to do the same thing. Queen Wilhemina and her daughter both refused to consider it, preferring to stand with the British. De Geer and his cabinets then decided to return home in early July to negotiate a deal on their own. Queen Wilhelmina then dismissed him and ordered that Parliament be dissolved.

De Geer ignored that and called a meeting of Parliament to declare that Wilhelmina was unable to exercise the functions of the monarchy due to being under the control of a foreign power. This motion was passed with a large majority, admittedly due to a degree of intimidation and De Geer attempted to negotiate a similar deal to Belgium. He however lacked an army and received no such consideration…

…The Dutch East Indies attempted to hold a neutral position in the dispute between the Amsterdam and Hague governments. On the one hand the London government could produce the most hard power and had control over access to the international financial system. On the other hand the Hague government was actually elected and controlled the homeland, and no one thought that the British had any chances of winning the war. Therefore the government in Batavia did as little as possible and simply worked to maintain Dutch authority and power in the colony for when the war ended…

-Excerpt From The Fall of Europe, Scholastic American Press, Philadelphia, 2005

…The problem of the numbering of the French Republics began with the second set of postwar elections in France and consisted of two parts. The first was whether or not the regime based in Vichy counted as a proper Republic or not, the second was whether the provisional government and its successor counted as a proper Republic or not…

…By the present the first part of the issue has been settled, the Vichy Regime, being legally authorized by a majority of the legitimately elected French National Assembly is counted as the Fourth Republic by all reputable scholars and government sources. The answer to the second part of the problem has also been settled, but the opinion of the French government and academic community differs with that of the rest of the world on the issue…

-Excerpt from Historiography of the 20th Century, Columbia University Press, New York, 2020
 
Heh, Belgium got the best deal out of everyone here. It of course helps that IIRC the entire Belgian army still hasn't actually fought yet.
 
So it finally ends. I felt like the Battle of France was dragging on TBH, a lot of updates to tell a story that had not diverged much from OTL aside from the worse Dunkirk. Glad to see this campaign finally wrapped up! Sounds like Free France, if it even gets off the ground, will not be remembered fondly by history. And that debate about a "provisional government" suggests that whatever the allies put together when they return to the continent has major legitimacy issues of its own.
So was there a Miracle at Dunkirk or not?
Did you even read this TL? It happened, just that the Brits evacuated about 2/3rds as much as OTL.

Heh, Belgium got the best deal out of everyone here. It of course helps that IIRC the entire Belgian army still hasn't actually fought yet.
For now, but I suspect the Germans will beat them into following on on the genocidal quest soon enough.

Meanwhile the Dutch.... not sure what to call it, not quite a civil war... is interesting! With Batavia waiting it out rather than committing to the Entente, they will be less prepared for the IJN and likely inflict less shipping losses.
 
Oh shit I just realized something. With Belgium still being alive and basically an Axis member the Shinkolobwe mine is unavailable to the US. With that being the case the Manhattan project is basically fucked on getting any significant amount of Uranium to refine. That means there isn't going to be any nuclear option to use instead of Downfall TTL. I'm beginning to think that when WW3 kicks off its so bad because it's the conflict where nuclear weapons get used for the first time.
 
Oh shit I just realized something. With Belgium still being alive and basically an Axis member the Shinkolobwe mine is unavailable to the US. With that being the case the Manhattan project is basically fucked on getting any significant amount of Uranium to refine. That means there isn't going to be any nuclear option to use instead of Downfall TTL. I'm beginning to think that when WW3 kicks off its so bad because it's the conflict where nuclear weapons get used for the first time.
Incorrect, it might be hampered some but the usa had sources within its own borders and within Canada for uranium during the war.
 
Oh shit I just realized something. With Belgium still being alive and basically an Axis member the Shinkolobwe mine is unavailable to the US. With that being the case the Manhattan project is basically fucked on getting any significant amount of Uranium to refine. That means there isn't going to be any nuclear option to use instead of Downfall TTL. I'm beginning to think that when WW3 kicks off its so bad because it's the conflict where nuclear weapons get used for the first time.
Most of the Shinkolobwe uranium (some 1200 tons iirc) was stored in warehouses on Staten Island prior to Pearl Harbor. Also, the pro-British minister is now the governor of the Belgian Congo, so there's a chance the mine is still open for Allied usage.
 
Incorrect, it might be hampered some but the usa had sources within its own borders and within Canada for uranium during the war.
The majority came from Shinkolobwe though. Also even if the others picked up the slack they had a lot less Uranium per ore load* so that would still slow down the project enough. They even sent a team to restart production during the war as they wanted more specifically from Shinkolobwe.

Most of the Shinkolobwe uranium (some 1200 tons iirc) was stored in warehouses on Staten Island prior to Pearl Harbor. Also, the pro-British minister is now the governor of the Belgian Congo, so there's a chance the mine is still open for Allied usage.
That was sent to the US from Belgium to prevent it from falling into German hands. That wouldn't have happened TTL given the events that occured so it's still out of the reach of the US. As for the second bit unless said governor is bold enough to declare the Belgian Congo independent he'll still be taking his orders from Europe.


*No seriously it was an insane difference. On average a good amount of Uranium per ore-load for the US and Canadian mines was 0.03% Uranium per lump of ore mined. At Shinkolobwe you were averaging 65% Uranium for the same sized amount of ore. Not having that is going to fuck the timeline of the Manhattan Project beyond belief.
 
That was sent to the US from Belgium to prevent it from falling into German hands. That wouldn't have happened TTL given the events that occured so it's still out of the reach of the US. As for the second bit unless said governor is bold enough to declare the Belgian Congo independent he'll still be taking his orders from Europe.
The British have a sizable stake in the Union Minière du Haut-Katanga, and the director was friends with Henry Tizard. Plus, the post-armistice Belgium isn't necessarily a puppet regime, it's more of a German-leaning neutrality. The Germans would be hard-pressed to object to the Belgians sending their uranium to another neutral country, especially if England still gets the idea to attack Vichy colonies.
 
Plus, the post-armistice Belgium isn't necessarily a puppet regime, it's more of a German-leaning neutrality.
Yeah this bit right here is the issue as it's wrong. Belgium is letting German soldiers and sailors on its soil for them to install AA and Naval defenses against the British. That by default strips out any neutrality from them and into semi-active participant at best. Given that Churchill is hated Post-War I image he'll declare them an Axis member and start attacking them during TTLs Battle of Britain. Which means even if the Belgian's want to send their Uranium to the US* they can't.


*In all seriousness why exactly would they send it to the US now anyway?
 
Given that Churchill is hated Post-War I image he'll declare them an Axis member and start attacking them during TTLs Battle of Britain
I mean, if the British do decide to invade the Congo, what's stopping them? They have a sympathetic governor, total naval superiority, and surround Belgium on practically all sides. Meanwhile, Belgian rule of the Congo, even post-Leopold, has not exactly been roses and sunshine, and they barely maintained order OTL with British help.

*In all seriousness why exactly would they send it to the US now anyway?
Because it's better kept in a neutral country that can actually back up their proclaimed neutrality? And ITTL US of a hell of a lot more isolationist than OTL US?

Belgium is letting German soldiers and sailors on its soil for them to install AA and Naval defenses against the British. That by default strips out any neutrality from them and into semi-active participant at best.
I'm not talking the letter of the Hague here, but rather the pretense of neutrality. So long as Belgium remains a sovereign state that hasn't been attacked by the Allies yet, they can pretend they are neutral and conduct business like a neutral country, such as trade.
 
I mean, if the British do decide to invade the Congo, what's stopping them? They have a sympathetic governor, total naval superiority, and surround Belgium on practically all sides. Meanwhile, Belgian rule of the Congo, even post-Leopold, has not exactly been roses and sunshine, and they barely maintained order OTL with British help.


Because it's better kept in a neutral country that can actually back up their proclaimed neutrality? And ITTL US of a hell of a lot more isolationist than OTL US?


I'm not talking the letter of the Hague here, but rather the pretense of neutrality. So long as Belgium remains a sovereign state that hasn't been attacked by the Allies yet, they can pretend they are neutral and conduct business like a neutral country, such as trade.
1: The British don't really have the ability to invade the Congo currently. I'm not saying they can't do it if they wanted to. The issue is to do so they'd have to send troops that are desperately needed on other fronts. There's no real way for Belgium to get anything from the Congo as is so it's better to just leave it alone for now.

2: No you missed the point I was trying to make. Why would a German leaning Belgium with a German leaning king and a German leaning Government sends its Uranium to the US in this situation? If they were worried about it they'd be more likely to send it to Germany in this situation.

3: There is no pretense of neutrality here though. They are letting German soldiers and sailors on their soil to install AA and Naval defenses that are going to be manned by German soldiers and sailors. You can't be a neutral nation when you're literally letting one nations soldiers kill another while on your soil willingly.
 
Oh shit I just realized something. With Belgium still being alive and basically an Axis member the Shinkolobwe mine is unavailable to the US. With that being the case the Manhattan project is basically fucked on getting any significant amount of Uranium to refine. That means there isn't going to be any nuclear option to use instead of Downfall TTL. I'm beginning to think that when WW3 kicks off its so bad because it's the conflict where nuclear weapons get used for the first time.
Based on the way I read it the Belgian Congo is defacto pro-British and Brussels knows there is shit all they can do to make it toe their line. So the resources there are still likely going to find their way to allied war efforts.
 
Based on the way I read it the Belgian Congo is defacto pro-British and Brussels knows there is shit all they can do to make it toe their line. So the resources there are still likely going to find their way to allied war efforts.
Oh I'm not arguing that, the main issue is the mine would be currently closed and all the uranium should still be in Belgium. So once Manhattan gets going TTL and they realize they need the ore from Shinkolobwe it will have done enough to delay the project from showing results until the war is over. I have to find it but I remember a paper that did the math and estimated that the Shinkolobwe uranium shaved at least a year off the refining time minimum.
 
1: The British don't really have the ability to invade the Congo currently. I'm not saying they can't do it if they wanted to. The issue is to do so they'd have to send troops that are desperately needed on other fronts. There's no real way for Belgium to get anything from the Congo as is so it's better to just leave it alone for now.
There were fresh King's African Rifle units effectively doing guard duty in Northern Rhodesia and Tanzania or being formed in late 1940.

OTL, the British know enough about a nuclear bomb to be scared in mid-1940, and everybody's WMD program seems to be more advanced than OTL. If the British have formed Tube Alloys, they would absolutely know the importance of the uranium and move to seize Katanga if there was a chance of the uranium falling into German hands.
2: No you missed the point I was trying to make. Why would a German leaning Belgium with a German leaning king and a German leaning Government sends its Uranium to the US in this situation? If they were worried about it they'd be more likely to send it to Germany in this situation.
Because continental Europe is under blockade? If the Belgians are worried about the British invading neutral territory, they're sure as hell going to be worried about the British seizing ships bound for Axis ports, the latter of which actually has a precedent in WWI. Sending the uranium to an isolationist US ensures that the uranium doesn't fall into British hands (as far as the Belgians know), since the US has a long history of fighting wars against countries that interdict its trade and the British won't be pissing off the 2nd largest navy in the world when their Mediterranean fleet got completely wrecked.

3: There is no pretense of neutrality here though. They are letting German soldiers and sailors on their soil to install AA and Naval defenses that are going to be manned by German soldiers and sailors. You can't be a neutral nation when you're literally letting one nations soldiers kill another while on your soil willingly.
Iran managed to pretend they were neutral as 2 million of their own citizens died because of fighting among other nations. The Anglo-Persian Oil Company was still exporting oil as northern Iran fell under the control of the Ottomans post Brest-Litvosk. Compared to WW1 Iran's situation, Belgium's practically Switzerland at the moment.
 
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The majority came from Shinkolobwe though. Also even if the others picked up the slack they had a lot less Uranium per ore load* so that would still slow down the project enough. They even sent a team to restart production during the war as they wanted more specifically from Shinkolobwe.

That was sent to the US from Belgium to prevent it from falling into German hands. That wouldn't have happened TTL given the events that occured so it's still out of the reach of the US. As for the second bit unless said governor is bold enough to declare the Belgian Congo independent he'll still be taking his orders from Europe.


*No seriously it was an insane difference. On average a good amount of Uranium per ore-load for the US and Canadian mines was 0.03% Uranium per lump of ore mined. At Shinkolobwe you were averaging 65% Uranium for the same sized amount of ore. Not having that is going to fuck the timeline of the Manhattan Project beyond belief.
As i said it would hamper but not stop. Also, yes there was a quality difference but the US could ramp up production, in fact its mines in the west actually were the major source of the worlds uranium prior the find in the Congo. So slow down some? yes. impact the ability to develop a Nuke in same time period? unknown because we dont know what impact a ramped up extraction process in US and Canada would look like.

and was already discussed by others the Congo is British leaning and for all intents and purposes acting as an independent right now so they could still offer of use of the mines. Nazis dont have a way to interfere with the Congo.

EDIT: per https://fas.org/publication/uranium-mining-u-s-nuclear-weapons-program-3/

In the Colorado Plateau alone, uranium mining increased by nearly 150 times from 1948 (54,000 tons of ore) to 1960 (8 million tons). The U.S. Atomic Energy Commission’s uranium purchases exceeded $2.4 billion (2013 dollars) in 1960 alone, making it the third most valuable metal mined in the United States.20

Thus showing there was plenty of uranium to still be mined.
 
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There were fresh King's African Rifle units effectively doing guard duty in Northern Rhodesia and Tanzania or being formed in late 1940.

OTL, the British know enough about a nuclear bomb to be scared in mid-1940, and everybody's WMD program seems to be more advanced than OTL. If the British have formed Tube Alloys, they would absolutely know the importance of the uranium and move to seize Katanga if there was a chance of the uranium falling into German hands.

Because continental Europe is under blockade? If the Belgians are worried about the British invading neutral territory, they're sure as hell going to be worried about the British seizing ships bound for Axis ports, the latter of which actually has a precedent in WWI. Sending the uranium to an isolationist US ensures that the uranium doesn't fall into British hands (as far as the Belgians know), since the US has a long history of fighting wars against countries that interdict its trade and the British won't be pissing off the 2nd largest navy in the world when their Mediterranean fleet got completely wrecked.


Iran managed to pretend they were neutral as 2 million of their own citizens died because of fighting among other nations. The Anglo-Persian Oil Company was still exporting oil as northern Iran fell under the control of the Ottomans post Brest-Litvosk. Compared to WW1 Iran's situation, Belgium's practically Switzerland at the moment.
1: Didn't know that actually. I imagine there's reasons they stayed where they were OTL that would keep them there TTL. Likely the colonies worry about an African uprising.

2: You do realize the British Blockade was intercepting neutrals as well right? Even if we go with this fiction of Belgium being neutral after the treaty the British would still likely just take it as contraband even if it was explicitly being sent to the US. Also again why are they sending it to the US in this scenario when Germany is literally a couple hour train ride away? If they're worried about the British taking they aren't going to risk a sea journey. They'll just load it up on a train and send it to their buddies in Berlin for safe keeping.

3: First off the Ottoman's never were able to try and enforce that sphere. IIRC after the Russian collapse in WW1 the British just took it over. Second off they did side with the Entente after said Russia collapse. Third off IIRC the only reason it took that long for them to pick a side was because the Qajar dynasty was trying to get the domestic situation under control. They were trying to get the various tribes to actually follow them and decide to deal with that first before joining the war. Even before that though they were essentially in the Entente in all but official capacity.
 
Also again why are they sending it to the US in this scenario when Germany is literally a couple hour train ride away? If they're worried about the British taking they aren't going to risk a sea journey. They'll just load it up on a train and send it to their buddies in Berlin for safe keeping
The 1200 tons uranium isn't in Belgium; it's in the Congo.
In 1940, Edgar Sengier, the Belgian managing director of Union Miniere du Haut Katanga, ordered that the high-grade uranium ore previously mined at the Shinkolobwe Mine in the Belgian Congo be imported to the USA to be sold through Union Miniere's American affiliate, African Metals Corporation. The 1200 tons of 65% U308 ore was transferred from the port of Lobito in Portuguese Angola and stored in 2007 steel drums in the Staten Island Warehouse owned by the Archer-Daniels-Midland Company.
Source: https://lmpublicsearch.lm.doe.gov/lmsites/6831-ny.22-4.pdf

Belgium proper only had around a few tons of uranium, nearly all of which got sent to the French for nuclear research (OTL this was evacuated to Britain, but it might not be ITTL).
You do realize the British Blockade was intercepting neutrals as well right?
The British were intercepting neutral ships because they were allegedly supplying Germany. That's kind of hard to justify for seizing a ship from the Belgian Congo, and the vessel came from the far more neutral Portuguese ports. In a far better position IOTL, Britain didn't do anything against Portuguese merchant shipping.
First off the Ottoman's never were able to try and enforce that sphere. IIRC after the Russian collapse in WW1 the British just took it over.
Not before the Ottomans occupied Tabriz all the way to August 1918, when all of Mesopotamia basically collapsed.

Second off they did side with the Entente after said Russia collapse. Third off IIRC the only reason it took that long for them to pick a side was because the Qajar dynasty was trying to get the domestic situation under control. They were trying to get the various tribes to actually follow them and decide to deal with that first before joining the war. Even before that though they were essentially in the Entente in all but official capacity.
Persia never declared war on any Central Power member, not even in 1918. The Persians that did fight the Ottomans fought under the Russian or the British flag, not the Persian flag.
 
…The problem of the numbering of the French Republics began with the second set of postwar elections in France and consisted of two parts. The first was whether or not the regime based in Vichy counted as a proper Republic or not, the second was whether the provisional government and its successor counted as a proper Republic or not…

…By the present the first part of the issue has been settled, the Vichy Regime, being legally authorized by a majority of the legitimately elected French National Assembly is counted as the Fourth Republic by all reputable scholars and government sources. The answer to the second part of the problem has also been settled, but the opinion of the French government and academic community differs with that of the rest of the world on the issue…

-Excerpt from Historiography of the 20th Century, Columbia University Press, New York, 2020
Huh. That's pretty interesting.
 
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