Hmmm... Hungary has Transylavania as Romainia was in CP.
Turkey lost its war of Independence.
Italy has Zara and few Dalmatian Islands.
Ghastly Victories: The United States in the World Wars
- Thread starter RamscoopRaider
- Start date
Turkey lost its war of Independence.
Italy has Zara and few Dalmatian Islands.
I don’t see how Hitler or his generals would invade Russia without at least a token force of Italians helping them. Germany would want as much help as possible, Italy for all its difference is still Fascists which means anti-communist so it be a great way to show how Sanna is fundamentally the same as Mussolini, and his own government might force him into joining the effort. If that happens then Italy’s hopes of a separate peace deal go down the toilet as Stalin will do everything to make sure they pay and would pressure the other nations to accept nothing less than a joint surrender
RamscoopRaider
Donor
Less a lack of cold bloodedness than an excess of hot bloodedness
Remember this is three TL outlines glued together with pieces of two more, with a few staples thrown in for good measure. Sanna is basically one of the staples
As a standalone TL, TL #2, which centered on GRAND CENTRAL, did not need a more competent leader of Italy, just OTL level of competence with a few lucky breaks is enough to keep Britain from intervening in the Pacific. The problem is that TL #2 assumed a broadly as OTL WWI, TL #1 entailed a worse World War I, and specifically one that bodied Italy. Ergo Italy could not play the role needed in tying down the British and preventing the Japanese house of cards from collapsing. So I needed an economic wunderkind for Italy so Italy could afford an OTL level military after being bodied worse in WWI, so Sanna go written in. I'm not reducing British military presence in the Far East, I'm keeping it from going up
That pretty much garantees an Axis-alligned Turkey when Greece is eventually defeated.
If that happens Russia might go all in and try to finally take the straits unless the allies offer a even better prize or occupy it first.
Brainwave I don’t think anyone’s done a timeline wherein one side of the Dardanelles is under Soviet Control and the other under Western Control. An aquatic wall so to speak?
My bad I did forget about that WW1 detail and about Turkey being divided 'e la' Sevres 3:
Of lost monkeys and broken vehicles by @Lascaris is about to be at that exact crossroads once WW2 is ended (or maybe not, the timeline is ongoing).
On the topic of Finland, is there many uses for it by the USSR for the up and coming war? I mean besides it's zinc, nickel mines, giving more a buffer for Leningrad and some more industrial equipment.
It can provide potentially useful air bases and does have plentiful amount of fish, which given by the sound of there will be little land lease the USSR needs every scrap of food it can get it's hands on to feed it's people.
It can provide potentially useful air bases and does have plentiful amount of fish, which given by the sound of there will be little land lease the USSR needs every scrap of food it can get it's hands on to feed it's people.
Well it significantly changes the defensive picture for the USSR considering it won't need to deploy as many forces to counter Finnish forces opposite of its own in the north.
Problem is Sevres was enforced so the remnant Turkey remains disarmed, and it's a failed state with much of the countryside controlled by fundamentalist militias. While it may jump in to get Smyrna as Greece falls, it otherwise is totally incapable of being a military asset to the Axis.
I imagine Hitler might appoint a generic strongman so they could have the resources and a springboard to the Caucasus. Also, controlling the straits might be useful for those pesky Eastern logistics.
Ooh yeah, good point on it given them free reign through the straits, especially if Britain does worse in the Mediterranean which gives italy and the U-boats more room to maneuver.
Hitler still needs to conquer all of southeastern Europe to even attempt any kind of political influence in the rump Ottoman Sultanate or whatever its called (IIRC they did maintain the Osmani dynasty and the Caliph status.... right?)
Idea just occurred to me what if at some point during the war to get more aid or hard cash the British sell some of their colonies to America? It might even happen in the aftermath when Britain really needs economic assistance.
What would they be willing to sell? What would America want? What would the price be? And would these lands be eventually freed, turned into states, or remain colonial possessions?
What would they be willing to sell? What would America want? What would the price be? And would these lands be eventually freed, turned into states, or remain colonial possessions?
Top of my head British Honduras, some Caribbean Islands, some Pacific Islands, Bahamas, Bermuda, maybe adjust the Canadian border in favor of America (this will likely piss the Canadians off and come back to haunt Britain).
What’s the status of Greenland right now? For that matter Iceland?
What’s the status of Greenland right now? For that matter Iceland?
Finally, because it’s a rainy day, here’s my sketch of the two sides at the height of the war:
Allies (Britain and its empire, USA, Free France, USSR as a cobelligerent, both Chinese factions, various minor powers like Mexico, Portugal, and maybe Switzerland)
Axis (Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan, Vichy France, puppet regimes, Turkey, Hungary, maybe some nominal support from a South American nation)
Undecided (Sweden, Brazil, Romania, Chile, Argentina)
Allies (Britain and its empire, USA, Free France, USSR as a cobelligerent, both Chinese factions, various minor powers like Mexico, Portugal, and maybe Switzerland)
Axis (Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan, Vichy France, puppet regimes, Turkey, Hungary, maybe some nominal support from a South American nation)
Undecided (Sweden, Brazil, Romania, Chile, Argentina)
ou do realize that you can put more than a single idea in a post, rather than three separate posts?
Part 6-56 Airpower, Fall of Europe
RamscoopRaider
Donor
…On August 30th every single bomber in the RAF that could fly and reach Berlin with a bomb took off as part of the largest single RAF operation of the war. 167 bombers were dispatched to hit the German capital during the night, despite the suboptimal moon and weather conditions. 151 Bombers made it to Germany and 118 found the Berlin metropolitan area, with 101 managing to drop bombs within in, 47 within the city proper. German night fighter defenses were in shambles and made only a handful of interceptions, while Flak batteries, despite the earlier Polish raid on the city were even worse off, not firing until after the first bombs had fallen.
In the end about 40 tons of bombs fell on the city itself, killing 33, in exchange for the loss of 12 British bombers and 2 German night fighters. It was by most standards a pinprick, less damaging than the Polish raid that opened the war and that itself had caused no significant damage. What was significant however was Hitler’s reaction to it. He was furious and he demanded that London be levelled in revenge.
Von Richthofen, not wanting to send his aircraft into a hornets nest and making good progress on his unzipping campaign, planned to mollify Hitler with a limited bombing raid by Ju-76s flying at relatively high altitude on the 3rd. This was however preempted by a 100 bomber repeat raid on Berlin by the British and Hitler’s reaction was positively volcanic, made even worse by the anemic response of Von Richthofen. He demanded that the Luftwaffe hit London with everything that could reach the city, immediately.
On the 4th 400 Luftwaffe bombers protected by 120 fighters attacked London. Target planning was minimal and coordination was poor, giving the outnumbered British a chance to engage the Germans piecemeal and inflict very favorable losses. The Germans lost 39 fighters and 51 Bombers, in exchange for 19 British fighters, and killing 127 civilians. The British then followed it up with a 50 bomber night raid on Berlin, despite the full moon.
Hitler demanded greater retaliation against London and Von Richthofen was forced to abandon most other targets to hit London hard. The RAF, on the verge of having to withdraw from its airbases in Southern England outside of the London metro area altogether, was given a much needed reprieve and the British transportation industry received a similar one. British industrial production continued to climb and British aircraft production began to overtake German production.
To his credit Von Richthofen attempted to focus on industrial targets, transportation hubs and suppressing the air fields of the London Metro area. However the British had concentrated their AA assets around London’s most valuable targets, in particular the airfields, leading to heavy losses for minimal results. He was unable to shift to softer targets as RAF Bomber Command had found its rhythm and kept launching 40-50 plane night raids against Berlin where circumstances permitted, keeping Hitler in a frenzy. The dive bombers continued to attack coastal targets and FW-117 heavy fighter launched nuisance raids as the former lacked the range to attack London and the latter as fighters could escape notice.
On September 20th the situation for the Luftwaffe became worse as the British were able to expand the London ADA to roughly double the radius, covering more targets within the umbrella and allowing earlier interceptions. Losses continued to climb and on the 24th no fewer than 100 Luftwaffe aircraft were lost as part of an attempt to swamp the British defenses with a gigantic raid of 450 bombers and 650 fighters. After a smaller raid on the 26th was equally savaged Von Richthofen made the decision on the 28th to call off daylight bombing of London with bombers.
Instead he switched to a round the clock strategy. In the day London would be attacked by bomb carrying fighters heavily protected by unencumbered fighters and capable of dropping their bombs and dogfighting if needed. At night the bombers would attack unescorted, reducing accuracy but increasing survivability. He hoped that a few days of this could convince Hitler to allow him to conduct more than nuisance raids outside of London. Unbeknownst to him RAF losses in forcing that change had been heavy with RAF fighter strength bottoming out at 512 aircraft on September 29th.
The change in strategy was successful, dropping bomber losses by 80% for two weeks until British tactics shifted and they began transferring older Bandits to nightfighter duties and conducting intruder operations on returning bombers with Gunsharks and converted Swordsman nightfighters, increasing losses to 50% of what they had been in September. German fighter losses remained constant, but British fighter losses fell as the frontline force consisted almost entirely of Glaives by this point who could generally escape unfavorable conditions given the Germans were operating at the edge of their range. However damage to British industry and their transportation network dropped as by bombing at night the bombers could not hit individual targets and despite operating in daylight the fighter pilots were not heavily trained in target identification and had a more difficult job without onboard bombardiers.
On October 11th the London ADA expanded once again, covering the airfields in Kent and allowing their reoccupation. Thus a German raid was surprised on the 12th well before they expected combat and was forced to turn back. A second shock was delivered on the 15th when American SEV 6 and Hawk 105 export fighters rose up to meet their fighters alongside the British Glaives.
This second shock saw Von Richthofen successfully argue that he needed to be able to do more than just bomb London now that the British were getting fighters from the US. He needed to be able to attack the docks to prevent further imports and the transport systems that fed British factories if he was to achieve air superiority, rather than just hope to beat down the British by attacking London. This was accepted by Hitler, providing he continued to deliver 5 times the tonnage on London that the British did on Berlin, something he could achieve without nearly his full bomber force.
By this point however it was too late. Too much of Britain was now covered by an effective air defense network and British fighter strength had recovered to over 700 aircraft, with the open cockpit biplanes finally phased out completely. There were still uncovered areas, but most of the Luftwaffe bomber bases were located to attack Southeastern England and bombers would require a significant dogleg to avoid it, cutting payload. Worse most targets were outside of escort range, meaning that even standard Bandits could operate with impunity.
Raids on the 17th and 19th suffered heavy losses, and while a raid against the Midlands on the 20th was successful, it was clear from all involved that it was a fluke that was unlikely to be repeated. Without the ability to degrade the British fighter force faster than the German bomber force the daylight version of the Entpacken strategy had to be abandoned. Fortunately for Von Richtohofen his engineers had a solution that would allow him to effectively bomb by night…
…The 1941 British raids on Berlin are a textbook example of using airpower to achieve a strategic aim. By targeting political weaknesses they forced the Luftwaffe into a suboptimal strategy that prevented it from effectively using its strength to degrade their resource base…
-Excerpt from Airpower!, Dewitt Publishing, Los Angeles, 2010
…By the end of September the Kriegsmarine was able to convince Hitler that the window for an invasion had passed, that they would not have good enough weather for an invasion until May. What few preparations for the so called Sea Lion that were made were cancelled and Hitler began asking for options on how to defeat Britain apart from the ongoing air and naval campaigns.
The Heer suggested an attack in the Mediterranean, but that would require working with Sanna, which Hitler did not want, and the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine both pointed out that the logistics were poor, so the option was dismissed. An operation against Gibraltar via Spain was also considered, however General Mola was refusing to get involved, with Sanna’s backing, and the economic organs of the Reich all wanted Spain to remain neutral. This too was dismissed.
Attacking the Middle East through Turkey could avoid that, but would require a great deal of diplomatic preparations to bring in Turkey, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania or Yugoslavia as necessary precursors. Discussion shifted to this subject as the only possibly way to bring ground forces to bear against the British.
An hour into the discussion as the topic became tempting Romania with security guarantees against the Soviet Union Hitler interrupted and asked why not simply invade the Soviet Union. Planning for Operation Otto, as the invasion was codenamed, had begun even before the fighting had ended in France, as the Soviet Union was always Hitler’s primary target for German expansion. However Hitler, for quite logical reasons, had wanted to defeat Britain before fighting the USSR and he was unanimously supported in this. Now it seemed that he had changed his mind.
The other participants at the meeting were aghast, but their objections only seemed to embolden Hitler. The eternal German worry of a two front war was dismissed, Sanna was keeping Britain occupied in the Mediterranean and the air and naval wars barely counted. Claims that it would cost more resources than would be gained were dismissed by the wealth of the Ukraine and the ability to demobilize many of the divisions guarding against a Soviet betrayal. Argument after argument was dismissed and with each one Hitler grew more and more enamored of the prospect. By the end of the meeting he was certain. The USSR would be invaded in May 1942…
…During the discussions relating to Operation Otto it is notable that there were no concerns about the ability of the Wehrmacht to actually defeat the Soviet Union. The poor performance of the USSR in Finland, where it took 4 times as long for the USSR to overrun a tiny nation as it did for Germany to overran the strongest realm in Europe, convinced everyone that the Soviet Army while very large was rotten to the core. The question in Germany was not if they could defeat the Soviets but simply how long would it take…
-Excerpt From The Fall of Europe, Scholastic American Press, Philadelphia, 2005
In the end about 40 tons of bombs fell on the city itself, killing 33, in exchange for the loss of 12 British bombers and 2 German night fighters. It was by most standards a pinprick, less damaging than the Polish raid that opened the war and that itself had caused no significant damage. What was significant however was Hitler’s reaction to it. He was furious and he demanded that London be levelled in revenge.
Von Richthofen, not wanting to send his aircraft into a hornets nest and making good progress on his unzipping campaign, planned to mollify Hitler with a limited bombing raid by Ju-76s flying at relatively high altitude on the 3rd. This was however preempted by a 100 bomber repeat raid on Berlin by the British and Hitler’s reaction was positively volcanic, made even worse by the anemic response of Von Richthofen. He demanded that the Luftwaffe hit London with everything that could reach the city, immediately.
On the 4th 400 Luftwaffe bombers protected by 120 fighters attacked London. Target planning was minimal and coordination was poor, giving the outnumbered British a chance to engage the Germans piecemeal and inflict very favorable losses. The Germans lost 39 fighters and 51 Bombers, in exchange for 19 British fighters, and killing 127 civilians. The British then followed it up with a 50 bomber night raid on Berlin, despite the full moon.
Hitler demanded greater retaliation against London and Von Richthofen was forced to abandon most other targets to hit London hard. The RAF, on the verge of having to withdraw from its airbases in Southern England outside of the London metro area altogether, was given a much needed reprieve and the British transportation industry received a similar one. British industrial production continued to climb and British aircraft production began to overtake German production.
To his credit Von Richthofen attempted to focus on industrial targets, transportation hubs and suppressing the air fields of the London Metro area. However the British had concentrated their AA assets around London’s most valuable targets, in particular the airfields, leading to heavy losses for minimal results. He was unable to shift to softer targets as RAF Bomber Command had found its rhythm and kept launching 40-50 plane night raids against Berlin where circumstances permitted, keeping Hitler in a frenzy. The dive bombers continued to attack coastal targets and FW-117 heavy fighter launched nuisance raids as the former lacked the range to attack London and the latter as fighters could escape notice.
On September 20th the situation for the Luftwaffe became worse as the British were able to expand the London ADA to roughly double the radius, covering more targets within the umbrella and allowing earlier interceptions. Losses continued to climb and on the 24th no fewer than 100 Luftwaffe aircraft were lost as part of an attempt to swamp the British defenses with a gigantic raid of 450 bombers and 650 fighters. After a smaller raid on the 26th was equally savaged Von Richthofen made the decision on the 28th to call off daylight bombing of London with bombers.
Instead he switched to a round the clock strategy. In the day London would be attacked by bomb carrying fighters heavily protected by unencumbered fighters and capable of dropping their bombs and dogfighting if needed. At night the bombers would attack unescorted, reducing accuracy but increasing survivability. He hoped that a few days of this could convince Hitler to allow him to conduct more than nuisance raids outside of London. Unbeknownst to him RAF losses in forcing that change had been heavy with RAF fighter strength bottoming out at 512 aircraft on September 29th.
The change in strategy was successful, dropping bomber losses by 80% for two weeks until British tactics shifted and they began transferring older Bandits to nightfighter duties and conducting intruder operations on returning bombers with Gunsharks and converted Swordsman nightfighters, increasing losses to 50% of what they had been in September. German fighter losses remained constant, but British fighter losses fell as the frontline force consisted almost entirely of Glaives by this point who could generally escape unfavorable conditions given the Germans were operating at the edge of their range. However damage to British industry and their transportation network dropped as by bombing at night the bombers could not hit individual targets and despite operating in daylight the fighter pilots were not heavily trained in target identification and had a more difficult job without onboard bombardiers.
On October 11th the London ADA expanded once again, covering the airfields in Kent and allowing their reoccupation. Thus a German raid was surprised on the 12th well before they expected combat and was forced to turn back. A second shock was delivered on the 15th when American SEV 6 and Hawk 105 export fighters rose up to meet their fighters alongside the British Glaives.
This second shock saw Von Richthofen successfully argue that he needed to be able to do more than just bomb London now that the British were getting fighters from the US. He needed to be able to attack the docks to prevent further imports and the transport systems that fed British factories if he was to achieve air superiority, rather than just hope to beat down the British by attacking London. This was accepted by Hitler, providing he continued to deliver 5 times the tonnage on London that the British did on Berlin, something he could achieve without nearly his full bomber force.
By this point however it was too late. Too much of Britain was now covered by an effective air defense network and British fighter strength had recovered to over 700 aircraft, with the open cockpit biplanes finally phased out completely. There were still uncovered areas, but most of the Luftwaffe bomber bases were located to attack Southeastern England and bombers would require a significant dogleg to avoid it, cutting payload. Worse most targets were outside of escort range, meaning that even standard Bandits could operate with impunity.
Raids on the 17th and 19th suffered heavy losses, and while a raid against the Midlands on the 20th was successful, it was clear from all involved that it was a fluke that was unlikely to be repeated. Without the ability to degrade the British fighter force faster than the German bomber force the daylight version of the Entpacken strategy had to be abandoned. Fortunately for Von Richtohofen his engineers had a solution that would allow him to effectively bomb by night…
…The 1941 British raids on Berlin are a textbook example of using airpower to achieve a strategic aim. By targeting political weaknesses they forced the Luftwaffe into a suboptimal strategy that prevented it from effectively using its strength to degrade their resource base…
-Excerpt from Airpower!, Dewitt Publishing, Los Angeles, 2010
…By the end of September the Kriegsmarine was able to convince Hitler that the window for an invasion had passed, that they would not have good enough weather for an invasion until May. What few preparations for the so called Sea Lion that were made were cancelled and Hitler began asking for options on how to defeat Britain apart from the ongoing air and naval campaigns.
The Heer suggested an attack in the Mediterranean, but that would require working with Sanna, which Hitler did not want, and the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine both pointed out that the logistics were poor, so the option was dismissed. An operation against Gibraltar via Spain was also considered, however General Mola was refusing to get involved, with Sanna’s backing, and the economic organs of the Reich all wanted Spain to remain neutral. This too was dismissed.
Attacking the Middle East through Turkey could avoid that, but would require a great deal of diplomatic preparations to bring in Turkey, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania or Yugoslavia as necessary precursors. Discussion shifted to this subject as the only possibly way to bring ground forces to bear against the British.
An hour into the discussion as the topic became tempting Romania with security guarantees against the Soviet Union Hitler interrupted and asked why not simply invade the Soviet Union. Planning for Operation Otto, as the invasion was codenamed, had begun even before the fighting had ended in France, as the Soviet Union was always Hitler’s primary target for German expansion. However Hitler, for quite logical reasons, had wanted to defeat Britain before fighting the USSR and he was unanimously supported in this. Now it seemed that he had changed his mind.
The other participants at the meeting were aghast, but their objections only seemed to embolden Hitler. The eternal German worry of a two front war was dismissed, Sanna was keeping Britain occupied in the Mediterranean and the air and naval wars barely counted. Claims that it would cost more resources than would be gained were dismissed by the wealth of the Ukraine and the ability to demobilize many of the divisions guarding against a Soviet betrayal. Argument after argument was dismissed and with each one Hitler grew more and more enamored of the prospect. By the end of the meeting he was certain. The USSR would be invaded in May 1942…
…During the discussions relating to Operation Otto it is notable that there were no concerns about the ability of the Wehrmacht to actually defeat the Soviet Union. The poor performance of the USSR in Finland, where it took 4 times as long for the USSR to overrun a tiny nation as it did for Germany to overran the strongest realm in Europe, convinced everyone that the Soviet Army while very large was rotten to the core. The question in Germany was not if they could defeat the Soviets but simply how long would it take…
-Excerpt From The Fall of Europe, Scholastic American Press, Philadelphia, 2005