From Exile to Triumph: a Western Roman Timeline
- Thread starter Flavius Iulius Nepos
- Start date
All the territory of the four Pannonian provinces (with maybe some exception) to the Goths while the Nepos will recover the direct control of the inner part of Dalmatia.
I think that the Danube or maybe later the Sava-Danube may be a nice border for the Romans, but it will also be a huge source of problems for them like during the third century.
Slavicized Greek Bactrians are the other obvious choice of course
Pannonia is a mess during this period however we can mention the Gepids, the Goths who didn't move to the Balkans, some Heruli and Rugii and what is left of the Huns after their defeat against the Gepids. The Lombards should be located on the northern part of the region.
Maybe that uber-finland wouldn't be a bad idea. In the next update you should be able to guess who would play this role.Slavicized Greek Bactrians are the other obvious choice of course
I suppose Nepos would attempt to stipulate a Foederatio pact with Theodoricus on a dedictio level; albeit Theodoricus, as Eastern Roman educated and surely knowing of Thessalonika, could try to pull for concessions like the ones granted by Valens to the Goths.
The precedent from Nepos's side could be over the Germanic and remnant Hun foederates, but I am not sure after Attila which was the basic agreement between them and the WRE albeit I am guessing they weren't dramatic as post-war Thessalonika for the ERE but just over normal dedictio rules.
I wonder if Nepos would ask as counter to Theodoricus to convert into Nicene Christianity...
The precedent from Nepos's side could be over the Germanic and remnant Hun foederates, but I am not sure after Attila which was the basic agreement between them and the WRE albeit I am guessing they weren't dramatic as post-war Thessalonika for the ERE but just over normal dedictio rules.
I wonder if Nepos would ask as counter to Theodoricus to convert into Nicene Christianity...
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Theodoric will surely push for greater autonomy for his people and for a position of prestige for himself inside the empire, however his position has been weakened by Strabo survival and the division of the ostrogoths. I would exclude in the future the possibility of a peaceful assimilation, but the Romans will probably try to support the pro roman faction over the anti-romans after Theodoric's death.
For as long as the Goths remains a distinct element in the political and military scenario, they will want to keep their different beliefs, something that will allow them to preserve a distinct identity (at least for the time being) from the Romans. So I would exclude the possibility of Theodoric converting ( it would only bring him problems at the moment ).
Speaking of assimilation, how are going the remnants of the Herules and the Scythians in the Empire? I am guessing aside them and the Alemans, those three peoples should be the three major not Roman groups (to which should be add soon Theodoricus's Goths which despite split should become the largest barbarian minority...)
You're right: the goths will be the major barbarian group inside the empire especially after the next updates. The Alemanni have been pushed out of Raetia and they are destined to be increasingly subject to their neighbours. Speaking about the minor tribes like the Heruli and the Scirii, they have beed defeated by Ecdicius and Constantianus in Noricum and this mean that some of them joined the empire (repopulating minor villages or cities they previously attacked) and the army. What is left of them is now "wandering" beyond the Danube (or in Pannonia) and without enough strength to create their own kingdom. This mean they will end up absorbed by bigger kingdoms/confederation (about this I have something in mind but for more information you will have to wait some updates) or asking the romans to be settled inside the empire. Interesting is the situation of the army, something I didn't explore yet. In the distant future there will be a major reorganization of the army and this mean I will have the time to talk about it, however I would like to give now some informations: the army is mostly composed by barbarians (like the Ostrogoths in the Scholae) but the units have mixed ethnicities and roman officers leading them. However due to the fact that the "Italian" army need to be replenished after the previous wars, we are seeing an increasing number of Illyrian and Roman joining the army and replacing deceased barbarians. They are probably still a minority and this mean the empire will need to continue to rely on barbarian troops but as long as they obey to a roman officer instead of a barbarian king/magister militum things will be fine.
Chapter XVII: The Pannonian Campaign
Chapter XVII
Spring 489 AD, Salona.
Once again the emperor was in Dalmatia. This time however he wasn’t exiled there. The emperor had almost renounced to recover the Pannonia region as the military effort required was considered excessive for the limited resources available to the empire after the recent campaigns. Now Nepos had the opportunity to recover and secure the Danubian limes with the support of Zeno and Theodoric. This one had been appointed by the western emperor, during an official meeting with the Nepos and his court, Patricius and Magister Militum per Pannonia [1], thus making him an integral part of the Roman empire. Before leaving Italy for this new campaign, Nepos had officially elevated his son Marcianus to the rank of Caesar, thus recognizing him as the heir of the empire. He also arranged the betrothal between the young boy and Dagalaiphus’ daughter Anicia Eudoxia [2]. The girl had noble blood as she was one of the last descendant of the Valentinian-Theodosian dynasty also related to the powerful western senatorial family of the Anicii. Finally her mother, Anicia Iuliana, was a powerful and influential woman in the eastern court, so this betrothal would prove to be really beneficial for Nepos and his son. An other important event was the appointment of the talented Petrus Marcellinus Felix Liberius, former Vicarius for the Diocesi of Italia Suburbicaria, to the position of Praefectus Praetorio of Italy, replacing Mavortius who was affected by health-related problems.
Anicia Iuliana, emperor Anicius Olybrius and Placidia's daughter
At Salona the emperor had at his disposal the members of the Scholae and some units of the Illyrian army, including the veterans of the recent campaign, for a total 7000-8000 men. These men where outnumbered by their Gothic counterpart, almost 12000 men able to fight without counting their families. Despite this difference of numbers, the campaign would officially be led by the emperor himself, considering that Theodoric was now acting as a Magister Militum subjected to the power of Nepos. Gaudentius, Magister Militum per Illyricum, would also take part in the incoming conflict. The army departed from Salona at the end of April, moving north towards the territory controlled by the Gepids. Minor inconveniences were encoutered by the marching army only beyond the Dinaric Alps, but it was near the Sava river that the two armies finally met. The battle that followed (Battle of Sava) showed the deep enmity that existed between the Goths and the Gepids, and after a bold charge of Theodoric himself against the center of the enemy formation, the Gepids fled from the battle. The battle was not decisive, as the casualties on both sides were very limited, but the few prisoners of the battle who were captured by the Goths were executed. Differently the Romans showed mercy toward the Gepids, sending them to Salona. After the battle, following the course of the river, the army moved to where once laid the city of Sirmium. Here another battle took place between the Gepids and the Romans and like the previous battle, the Gepids were routed. This battle proved once again to be just a mere skirmish, however now that the Romans had reached the ruins of Sirmium, the reconstruction of the city could finally start. The city would serve as a perfect military base for further campaign in Pannonia.
After the battle of Sirmium, Theodoric and his Goths left the main army, moving west along the Sava river, with the intention of occupying all bridges and road that linked the province of Dalmatia to Pannonia. During his march he encountered the city of Siscia, once the provincial capital of Savia [3], and with his army decided to spend the rest of the year there, reinforcing the city wall and the control over the river.
The city of Sirmium was one of the official roman capital under Galerius
Meanwhile the emperor, while supervising the reconstruction of Sirmium, which would ensure the control over the final part of the Sava, experienced sudden pains. Feeling weak the emperor decided to leave the command of the army to Gaudentius and return back to Salona. Here the imperial medics reassured Nepos about the causes of the recent weakness: the many duties of the emperor (especially military ones) and the related stress. Thus they asked him to leave military matters to his subordinates and enjoy some rest in the imperial palace that once belonged to Diocletian. Here the emperor would recover the energies he spent during the recent years while Theodoric and Gaudentius would continue the Pannonian campaign without his personal presence.
Diocletian's imperial palace
From now on I think I should add some notes at the end of a chapter when necessary:
[1] I think that Theodoric deserves an higher title than Dux, however I didn't want to give him Gaudentius' title and control over the Illyrian army so that' s why I created this special tile
[2] OTL Dagalaiphus and Anicia had a son, here they had a son and a younger daughter;
[3] South-western Pannonia.
Spring 489 AD, Salona.
Once again the emperor was in Dalmatia. This time however he wasn’t exiled there. The emperor had almost renounced to recover the Pannonia region as the military effort required was considered excessive for the limited resources available to the empire after the recent campaigns. Now Nepos had the opportunity to recover and secure the Danubian limes with the support of Zeno and Theodoric. This one had been appointed by the western emperor, during an official meeting with the Nepos and his court, Patricius and Magister Militum per Pannonia [1], thus making him an integral part of the Roman empire. Before leaving Italy for this new campaign, Nepos had officially elevated his son Marcianus to the rank of Caesar, thus recognizing him as the heir of the empire. He also arranged the betrothal between the young boy and Dagalaiphus’ daughter Anicia Eudoxia [2]. The girl had noble blood as she was one of the last descendant of the Valentinian-Theodosian dynasty also related to the powerful western senatorial family of the Anicii. Finally her mother, Anicia Iuliana, was a powerful and influential woman in the eastern court, so this betrothal would prove to be really beneficial for Nepos and his son. An other important event was the appointment of the talented Petrus Marcellinus Felix Liberius, former Vicarius for the Diocesi of Italia Suburbicaria, to the position of Praefectus Praetorio of Italy, replacing Mavortius who was affected by health-related problems.
Anicia Iuliana, emperor Anicius Olybrius and Placidia's daughter
At Salona the emperor had at his disposal the members of the Scholae and some units of the Illyrian army, including the veterans of the recent campaign, for a total 7000-8000 men. These men where outnumbered by their Gothic counterpart, almost 12000 men able to fight without counting their families. Despite this difference of numbers, the campaign would officially be led by the emperor himself, considering that Theodoric was now acting as a Magister Militum subjected to the power of Nepos. Gaudentius, Magister Militum per Illyricum, would also take part in the incoming conflict. The army departed from Salona at the end of April, moving north towards the territory controlled by the Gepids. Minor inconveniences were encoutered by the marching army only beyond the Dinaric Alps, but it was near the Sava river that the two armies finally met. The battle that followed (Battle of Sava) showed the deep enmity that existed between the Goths and the Gepids, and after a bold charge of Theodoric himself against the center of the enemy formation, the Gepids fled from the battle. The battle was not decisive, as the casualties on both sides were very limited, but the few prisoners of the battle who were captured by the Goths were executed. Differently the Romans showed mercy toward the Gepids, sending them to Salona. After the battle, following the course of the river, the army moved to where once laid the city of Sirmium. Here another battle took place between the Gepids and the Romans and like the previous battle, the Gepids were routed. This battle proved once again to be just a mere skirmish, however now that the Romans had reached the ruins of Sirmium, the reconstruction of the city could finally start. The city would serve as a perfect military base for further campaign in Pannonia.
After the battle of Sirmium, Theodoric and his Goths left the main army, moving west along the Sava river, with the intention of occupying all bridges and road that linked the province of Dalmatia to Pannonia. During his march he encountered the city of Siscia, once the provincial capital of Savia [3], and with his army decided to spend the rest of the year there, reinforcing the city wall and the control over the river.
The city of Sirmium was one of the official roman capital under Galerius
Meanwhile the emperor, while supervising the reconstruction of Sirmium, which would ensure the control over the final part of the Sava, experienced sudden pains. Feeling weak the emperor decided to leave the command of the army to Gaudentius and return back to Salona. Here the imperial medics reassured Nepos about the causes of the recent weakness: the many duties of the emperor (especially military ones) and the related stress. Thus they asked him to leave military matters to his subordinates and enjoy some rest in the imperial palace that once belonged to Diocletian. Here the emperor would recover the energies he spent during the recent years while Theodoric and Gaudentius would continue the Pannonian campaign without his personal presence.
Diocletian's imperial palace
[1] I think that Theodoric deserves an higher title than Dux, however I didn't want to give him Gaudentius' title and control over the Illyrian army so that' s why I created this special tile
[2] OTL Dagalaiphus and Anicia had a son, here they had a son and a younger daughter;
[3] South-western Pannonia.
I wonder how could develop Salona TTL, now that the city and the palace would remain two separate entities, or if Nepos or his successors would donate part of it to the population or the local church (which would need to search eventually an alternate place to build a cathedral... Is over those small details I am really go mad, ehehehe.
So, Siscia as Theodoric's capital? Sounds good.
So, Siscia as Theodoric's capital? Sounds good.
I don't think that Nepos and Zeno have any intention to lead a campaign beyond the Danube, so the reconstruction of the bridge would be pointless now. Maybe later when a bold emperor decide that an offensive strategy is better than a defensive one.
Salona will remain the most important city in the region, probably the capital of the local Diocesi unless Sirmium recover its glory quickly. The reduced threat posed by barbarian groups to the region will probably allow the inhabitants to remain in the city while the palace will remain just an imperial residence. Obviously I'm not going to give Diocletian's palace to the local church, that would be an insult to his memory
. I too like small details, in the future, when we will completely derail from OTL history, I will try to add even more details, however I think that I'm proceeding really slowly now ( 18 updates and only 9 years of a timeline that is supposed to last some centuries), so I want to ask to everyone who is reading this if I should change something in this timeline: any preference, critics or something you don't like about this timeline ( and don't say the language, I recognize myself that there are so many errors, however I'm writing this also to try to improve my english).Seems to me a good choice, an important city behind the Sava, between Italy and the ERE. However as I said the Goths won't have a proper capital, more like places where the king want to spend some time.
Welcome on board! I'm glad that you follow this timeline.
Salona will remain the most important city in the region, probably the capital of the local Diocesi unless Sirmium recover its glory quickly. The reduced threat posed by barbarian groups to the region will probably allow the inhabitants to remain in the city while the palace will remain just an imperial residence. Obviously I'm not going to give Diocletian's palace to the local church, that would be an insult to his memory
Seems to me a good choice, an important city behind the Sava, between Italy and the ERE. However as I said the Goths won't have a proper capital, more like places where the king want to spend some time.
No worries about the pace, besides I am enjoying the speculation talks not less than the TL so both are going more than pretty good to me!
So, Salona will get a cathedral somewhere else TTL. And never get the name Spalatum which is more than fine with me! Anyway the city will still be the major WRE settlement out of Italy and likely shine as the major Adriatic port for several decades so could still have a cathedral fit of her status.
Which is make me wonder how would be Roman Imperial art and style... Likely going along still the canons of late antiquity and paleochristian art, but with a stronger local impulse from the same Rome. I am thinking how the religious themes would develop, in the Eternal City after 476 the Church was oriented over Parusia and Millenarianism subjects, in this case it would diverge?
This is a very interesting point... As the WRE is going to stabilize and recover economically, the Imperial merchant and upper classes (court included) may be interested in restarting a luxury furniture production and trade, and nordic amber would be on the top of wanted goods - goods which however would be wanted by Constantinople as well.
Is highly possible that the Carpathian basin would be a major node of amber trade to be directed towards Pannonia and/or Mesia, and this would let me think of who would rule the Carpathian region and Dacia in the next years - likely the Gepids as OTL, but maybe the Lombards could have a shot... Anyway with a recivilized Pannonia (no matter if formally or pratically Roman at the moment), the realm which would be stand to the East of the Danube may become an interesting country, whatever would be ruled by the Gepids then the Avars and so the Ungars... Because whatever will come next to prevail over the ruling ethnicity will inherit what the previous one did. And I can see for convenience and opportunism Emperors of the West and the East recognizing the ruler of turn as "Rex Daciae" and it would likely stick in the long term...
And if the Dacian-Roman communities will resist as OTL and thrive along the newcomers... Well we can have a Neo-Latin speaking realm as well. It would be much interesting to see which Christian branch would prevail as well, because will show where this realm would look more - towards Rome or Constantinople?
Anyway; returning to amber trade, aside the Carpathians the only other route to the Baltic Sea for Rome would be the Germanic route; and here would count the relations of the peoples North of the Danube. Two in particular in the nearest future: the Bavarians and the Saxons...
Obviously I'm not going to give Diocletian's palace to the local church, that would be an insult to his memory
Even if it remains an imperial residence, the palace will get a church, perhaps even a cathedral. The Christian populace, ruling class and imperial family wouldn't give a damn about insulting Diocletian's anti-christian legacy. In fact, they might do it exactly because of it.
Well you're right it could be someone else but if the Danube remains the border between Rome and whatever there is beyond the river, I suspect the bridge won't have a long life.
The biggest city in the Diocesi of Illyricum but there are other cities outside Italy that could outshine Salona. Anyway as the seat of a Vicarius, of a fleet and maybe in the future of a Praetorian Prefect (or even an emperor) the future of Salona looks bright.
I didn't think about the artistic aspect yet, but I have an idea for one or two interesting monuments. Probably roman art will preserve elements of the late empire from the end of the III century to the V century while slowly evolving as OTL. There won't be any recovery of the classic style or a return to the art of the Principate however it will be interesting to see how the empire will react to something similar to iconoclastism.
I ve to admit that I'm not an expert of this particular matter but I can assure that whatever will arise between the Carpathian and the Danube will be deeply influenced by Rome and local native elements. It will be interesting to see the evolution of this particular entity and its approach to the roman world, and the title of "Rex Daciae" could even be used by roman historians
What is now happening in Pannonia will have later some effects in this region. Something that could involve even the Lombards.
Of course the christians don't care about Diocletian's memory (we can say that it's just my "personal tribute" to an emperor that I like) and probably the palace will get a church (probably it already has one) but we can avoid the donation of the entire palace to the local church or even worse the use of the palace as a source for materials. The palace will remain in the hand of the secular authority and retain its function as an imperial residence. However I would like to ask if the population of the local Diocesi was already entirely christianized: I'm referring in particular to those Romans who had effectively remained outside the reach of the empire for decades. Was the Dalmatian and Pannonian population along the Danube so deeply christianized as the population of every other provinces? Of course without considering the local germanic tribes.
I'm not really sure you can prove this with any degree of certainty, but given the current date of the TL Christianity has been the official religion of the Roman Empire for a full century now. How many pockets of Graeco-Roman polytheism survived into the late 5th century?
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From what I've read, Justinian had to deal with major pagan populations outside of the coastal cities with forced conversions, and with many even high ranking Imperial officials who had "converted" in order to gain positions in government but continued to practice their old religions, sacrifices and all, in private.