Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL
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SwampTiger
Banned
Sorry, I forgot that detail. Unfortunately for the Norwegians, the D XXI will be obsolete once 109 Emils show up. It will still be a good trainer, army cooperation and light attack aircraft for rugged fields. Even the Finns started looking for replacements in 1941.
But for a desperate air defense of Oslo BoB style, they and the Gladiators work until RAF reinforcements, mainly Hurricanes, show up
Edit: The Germans are also flying from Aalborg, 225+ miles away, the range on the Me 109 is 350 miles max, so they might only have to fight 110's until the Germans can get the STOL field they have in Oslofjord big enough for 109's
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Finland was exactly why I was trying to puzzle out any effects of divergences in the east of course. Assuming the Norwegians and Allies drive the Germans out of Norway (and Hitler seems unlikely to countenance any retreats, so that means killing or capturing all the invaders present and any more Hitler might manage to send in after them--the best the Reich forces could hope for would be Hitler at least having the sense to cut his losses and stop sending good after bad) then a major divergence going forward is the Allies having secure contact, albeit tenuous, directly with northern Finland. Note the Soviets have no border with Norway; that was achieved OTL later in the war with the Soviets seizing Petsamo.
The ugly fact is that OTL the Finns were co-belligerent with the Axis once Barbarossa was launched and got major aid from the Germans. It sure would be nice to avoid that, and in fact to avoid any further war between Finland and the USSR, so I was rather wistfully hoping that the prospect of Allied aid going direct to Finland might deter Stalin from the mistake of further designs on Finland.
A difference the (quite hard to explain or justify, and in that sense fortunately not a factor here, sad as the whole ugly story of the German-Soviet Pact was OTL and here) lack of a Pact might make would have been defusing Allied animosity against the Soviets.
If Finland can be secured without further fighting, that seems good to me.
Obviously the level of Finland Wank you are imagining here is a bit premature to say the least. It is not crazy something like that might happen later, because at this point the Soviets are indeed complicit as hell in the Axis's war, and a DOW against the Soviets is possible. Ill advised unless Stalin does something egregious of course; it was wise OTL for the Allies not to burn the bridge of later Soviet alliance, but the ball is in Stalin's court at this point.
(I don't think Stalin is likely to put his head further in the noose though, nor will he actually attack the Reich himself out of east Poland, though certainly on paper it looked like he planned to do just that sooner or later. I think he was going to procrastinate on that as long as Hitler let him, because actually what was deterring him from attempting some kind of Bolshevik crusade was his own fear of empowering some successful Red Army general to rival himself).
For Hitler to be able to eventually strike east at the Soviets, I figure he has to conquer France first.
Of course he himself is perhaps crazy enough to order it anyway, and I would not count on the German officers being able to pull the plug on his lunacy by couping him out--they tried it more than once OTL and it backfired on them, and aside from having the Devil's luck, which could be a rug an author might pull out from under him, institutionally speaking there is no "clean" way for an officer coup to be pulled off without weakening the Reich with civil war; the Nazi machine was pretty deeply wound and too many Germans would follow it; even killing Hitler is no guarantee of a quick orderly shift of power. To be sure if Hitler tries to arrange Barbarossa without having settled the western front and capturing western European resources first, the officers might be driven to try anyway and perhaps succeed enough to win a "white peace."
But the Allies pretty much have to demand the release of Poland and Denmark as a minimum condition, and will want lots of others and would perhaps rather fight for total defeat of Germany than agree to too easy a peace for even an ostensibly post-Nazi Reich to be let off on. Unhanding Czechia is another term the Allies should insist on, and punitive concessions to Poland, reparations to Poland, Norway, Denmark and the Entente powers too.
Can Hitler in fact still conquer the lowland nations and France?
It isn't even settled that the Germans will be driven out of Norway yet of course--but if they are not, that will be a bleeding front, and I think that would put paid to any plans to take France more effectively than Hitler cutting his losses in the north would. OTL, Norway absorbed and immobilized a lot of occupation troops; it paid off for the Reich various ways, but actually without that albatross on the Wehrmacht's neck maybe, writing off what was sent north as lost, they might come out ahead in terms of troops and kit for invading western Europe.
Then there is the whole question of how probable German success achieved OTL in France actually was, with things as OTL. At best taking the Norway venture as failed and pulling in their horns there can perhaps leave the Germans not much worse off for that mission, but set against that the effect on morale on both sides that defeat in Norway would mean--French, Belgian and Dutch defenders would have less reason for defeatism looking at Norway's example; I suppose the Reich can manage news and rumor well enough to minimize blows to their own morale, but at the top Hitler looks a lot less brilliant--even if German troops hang on in parts of Norway, it is a mess for them versus OTL, and that would be a fatal bleeding of resources needed for the southwest campaigns. Meanwhile people debate how likely French defeat actually was even OTL; persons holding that Hitler just plain got lucky there naturally will have to figure that his prospects are grim indeed now! Time was though I gathered most people assumed France's fall was quite certain, and people believing that can probably argue the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe can be seriously worse off than OTL and still pull it off anyway.
The author alone can rule on whether outcomes in western Europe to the south are as OTL in the end, which I think is anyway not categorically impossible as yet, depending on how much more the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe will bleed further trying to salvage the Norway mess. Best case for Hitler--he comes to his senses and offers a truce for all Germans to withdraw home minus their kit through Sweden back to the Reich, which the Allies might consider taking to avoid their own losses in Norway. But that's out of character for him, unlikely for the Allies to agree to, tricky to manage and it is not entirely clear to me the Swedes would play along either.
Meanwhile not only French defeatism, but Belgian and Dutch, is on the back foot; the two northern coastal states are of course warned (but they were OTL of course).
What are the chances that Hitler, observing losses from the Norway gamble, decides to forgo invading the Netherlands and Belgium, and concentrate on a hard push through French defenses straight into France without drawing the low country kingdoms into the war at all? I think if he leaves them alone, they won't be persuaded to jump in on the Allied side even if Germany is on the ropes later, and so France might fall without Hitler securing the lowlands maybe, though I do understand that pushing through the Maginot Line will not be easy.
If he can secure just France, and the low country kingdoms remain neutral, that might be enough for him to try Barbarossa anyway, not earlier than OTL of course--the Axis will need time to assimilate French resources and build up the levels Hitler figures are enough and meanwhile Italy will be jumping in and diverting resources and attention to the Med and North Africa.
Can we have another divergence in which Mussolini sits out the fall of France, leaving the whole job just to the Germans? But that leaves Britain stronger, and Norway as a major allied foothold, as noted capable of diverting equipment and troops into Finland and perhaps thus stabilizing the Finnish-Soviet border allowing Stalin to concentrate resistance to the invasion, while Hitler would have less to work with even as demands for more, even in his overoptimistic estimate, pile up. Finland being secured by being part of the same alliance that the Soviets are in gives Britain a land route to link up British expeditionary forces direct with Soviet ones in the northeast; Stalin might even agree, as a condition of British aid, to let the Baltics go and maybe even eastern Poland, though I am pretty sure he would demand at least these buffer states be demilitarized.
See, if it is all the same to you, I'd rather imagine much enhanced Finnish forces beating Axis rather than Soviet forces. I would not forecast that as high probability outcome here, but I can dream as well as you can.
The high probability outcome is that Hitler is dead in the water but just doesn't know it yet, that France will not fall, that the lowland kingdoms might well do far better--surely the Reich can do them heavy damage, but both had plans for turning their eastern reaches into defenses and their populations taking refuge in the west, which would deny those ports as well as French to the U-boat campaign. Even if France loses a lot of ground, even if Paris falls, a stalemate with French forces holding part of France is fatal to Hitler's dreams, and his negotiating a truce is just plain out of character for him.
Looking forward to the author's judgement on how far toward expelling Reich power from Norway the Allies can go. Norway is hardly secure yet! But time is not on the German side.
From the point of view of less boring alternatives than the Anglo-American options, it is sad Norway is no longer neutral; now the Dutch remain of course still free to sell as many Fokker designs as they like to Norway legally, but continuing to supply Norway as an Ally almost forces Hitler to try to invade. The Dutch are between a rock and hard place of course; they cannot afford to alienate either side. The Reich is right there, prepared to roll over them, and is a major trade partner; the British can cut them off from the Dutch East Indies any time they like. (Belgium is in similar straits, with their nominal control of the Congo being on Entente sufferance in much the same way, but none of us are trying to wank Belgian military kit!)
Too bad you could not plausibly stretch the Norwegian buildup to include the G.I model in Norway's inventory, that would have been cool. Too late to sneak it in now alas. To be sure a more drawn out German conquest of the Netherlands might involve surviving models retreating to Britain, as I believe some did OTL, and maybe winding up in Norwegian hands, but they would not be state of the art, they'd be second then third string reserves at best.
Perhaps we can plausibly have the Swedes defying Reich interests and selling some Swedish design?
----
No, apparently not. I was thinking of the J-21 of course but even in the prop version that was not available OTL until 1946; it seems Swedish fighters were mainly Italian prior to that plane coming on line.
Postwar might be another story of course--Norway could certainly be a major supplemental customer along with the Swedish forces of SAAB products, not inconceivably Norway might even partner into SAAB and form a two-kingdom basis. This would be more likely if Sweden ever comes in an as an actual Ally of course, which I think is more likely here but hardly a sure thing. Even supposing something like NATO emerges, with Sweden refraining from formal alliance as OTL, it might work out quite well if Norway also stays formally out of such an alliance and allies with Sweden instead--again this makes a lot more sense if Norwegian and Swedish forces are fighting on the same side for some significant part of this current war. But I guess we aren't concerned with postwar here. Too bad, SAAB did a fine job with models after the J-21, and even that plane, though not ideal in view of competition of top of the line late model prop planes like late model Mustangs and Spitfires, or early model jets like the Vampire and Meteor, being both quite readily available, was at any rate cool! Subsequent SAAB designs I would call quite excellent.
I guess for maximum coolness, we should figure France does not fall, and the Norwegians get a lot of midwar and late war French model designs. But frankly it would be more plausible they get British or American ones! And British models have the edge that it would permit the Norwegian air services and British ones to pool supply chains I suppose.
Heck, if much of France comes under occupation even if part of it holds out, it is not clear there would be any French models being produced at all. Whereas if France does not fall, or is occupied only to a small degree as in the Great War, the war will not be lasting long after that; time is not on Hitler's side.
Chapter XXV
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Chapter XXV: The Next Moves
Vizeadmiral Günther Lütjens stood on the bridge of the battleship Gneisenau, watching the sea slide by the ship as she and her sister, Scharnhorst, steamed south, trying to avoid the British heavy units he correctly believe to be to his north. Gneisenau’s Caesar turret was still disabled, as a result of a 38cm shell hit from HMS Renown during the engagement off the Lofoten Islands. Scharnhorst was having turbine problems, so neither ship was operating at full efficiency, meaning they would have trouble if engaged by British ships. News of Oslo still in Norwegian hands, a decisive Norwegian victory in Bergen, the sinking of Karlsruhe off Kristiansand, damage to German ships in Trondheim as well as the Norwegian forces there holding out northeast of the city, and finally, the failure of the attack on Narvik by the destroyers his ships had been escorting just days before had Lütjens convinced that Operation Weserübung was a failure, and he was frantic to get the two battleships to safety before they too became casualties. The destroyers Z5 and Z6 had joined the twins off Trondheim that morning, 11 April, while the other ships staying at Trondheim were too damaged to make the voyage, except for Z16, which was helping defend the city. The ships were off Alesund at the moment, though a ways out to sea.
Lütjens’ musings were interrupted by the shouts of lookouts: “torpedoes to port!” The Vizeadmiral rushed to the port side of his flagship. Six torpedo tracks were racing through the water, heading for the two battleships. Gneisenau turned hard to starboard, as did Scharnhorst, the latter of which the torpedoes looked to be aimed towards. Lütjens watched, praying that Scharnhorst would avoid the torpedoes, but she didn’t. One torpedo hit the ship near Caesar turret. A damage report was soon received: the torpedo had destroyed the port propeller shaft, disabled Caesar turret, killed somewhere around 50 men, opened the hull to over a thousand tons of water, and her speed had to be decreased to 20 knots. Lütjens swore. This campaign could only get worse.
The crew of the Norwegian submarine C3 cheered as their Captain reported one of their torpedoes had hit a German battleship. C3 had been at sea for several days, patrolling out to sea parallel with Alesund to cut off German ships retreating from Trondheim and Narvik. She’d done her job, inflicting the latest casualty on the Kriegsmarine.
Kriegsmarine Headquarters, Thursday, 11 April, 18:00 hours
Eric Raeder had had a very bad week. The Kriegsmarine had lost one heavy cruiser with two damaged badly, three light cruisers with one beached, ten destroyers with one badly damaged, four torpedo boats, and many minor ships. Now, the news was that Gneisenau and Scharnhorst had engaged a British battlecruiser, resulting in Gneisenau’s Caesar turret being disabled, and this afternoon, Scharnhorst had been heavily damaged by a torpedo. All these losses, and Hitler still expected the Kriegsmarine to protect convoys to southern Norway and send an expedition to relieve Trondheim immediately! The original plan had been for Scharnhorst, the newly repaired Nürnberg, two destroyers, and a couple of torpedo boats to immediately refuel and escort some fast transports to Trondheim, but now Scharnhorst was not capable of that, and Gneisenau needed repairs to her turret! Why couldn’t that fat, lazy Goering just airlift supplies and stop complaining about his losses in Oslo and the distance! The Kriegsmarine would have to go through the Royal Navy to get to Trondheim. Surely the Luftwaffe’s expensive new transports could fly over some mountains and brave a few biplanes!
The only good news was that the light cruiser Nürnberg had been repaired ahead of schedule, and was now working up off Kiel. She, Z5, Z6, Kondor, and the two torpedo boats escorting Bismarck, which was currently screening convoys in the Skagerrak, would form a decent escort group. The only large ship outside of the pre-dreadnoughts, which were currently providing fire support in Oslofjord, that was up for such an operation was Bismarck, her crew still familiarizing themselves with the massive ship, which wasn’t operating at peak efficiency. Raeder sighed at the thought of sending some of his last operational vessels on such a risky mission. The ships would refuel in Stavanger and escort the troopships Europa and Bremen, carrying with a total of 6,000 men, to Trondheim, along with badly needed supplies. The two ocean liners, sitting in port since the start of the war, were in the process of being crewed and loaded as of 10 April at the Fuhrer’s orders, with as many wood furnishings ripped out as possible, as they would cause a fire to spread easily, while a handful of 2cm AA guns were bolted onto their decks, and while they weren’t proper troopships, they were fast and could carry many men, which was what was needed for this desperate mission. The hurriedly assembled force, with Bismarck replacing Scharnhorst, for better or worse, would sail from Stavanger on the evening of 16 April, and land its cargo mid-afternoon the next day.
Across the North Sea, First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill was smoking a cigar. Thank God Ark Royal and Glorious’ departures to the Mediterranean had been delayed, and now cancelled, their new missions being to Norway. The Royal Navy was scrambling to get more ships and men to Norway and join the battle, which seemed to be going rather well for the Norwegians, all things considered: Narvik and Bergen had given the invaders a bloody nose, the Germans were in control of Trondheim after casualties but the Norwegian Army units in the area had regrouped, the Army in Oslo was holding its own.
The current priorities were to reinforce Bergen and send land and air units to Oslo via the city, as well as take Trondheim from the Germans. Once these things were finished, the Germans would be isolated in southern Norway and gradually pushed back, costing Hitler a large amount of men and steel. The thing that disappointed Churchill the most was the failure of the Royal Navy to catch the battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, which aerial reconnaissance had spotted south of Norway a few hours prior, but the crippling losses to the Kriegsmarine had him in good spirits.
The current plan was for the carrier Furious, loaded with 18 Skua and 9 Swordfish bombers, escorted by the cruiser Suffolk and four destroyers, to hit Trondheim harbor with her aircraft and sink the operational German destroyer in the town, as well as the cruiser Admiral Hipper, still repairing her damage according to the Norwegians, whom he had great admiration for-they had crippled the Kriegsmarine and held their own on land. Meanwhile, the battleships Resolution, Valiant, the cruisers Effingham, York, and Berwick, as well as eight destroyers, the cruisers carrying the 146th Infantry Brigade and French 5th Alpine Brigade, would arrive off Trondheim a few hours later. In a plan devised by Sir Roger Keyes, who had unsuccessfully volunteered to lead the mission, Resolution, Effingham, Berwick, and four destroyers would force the entrance to Trondheimsfjorden, with Furious’ aircraft spotting for them as well as warning of threats. They would bombard the coastal batteries with their heavy guns and land a battalion of British infantry to take the battered fortresses, opening the way for the troopships and cruisers to land their occupants, while the 4,000-odd Norwegians north of Trondheim would attack. If this worked, Trondheim would fall. The attack was to take place the morning of 17 April.
The reinforcement of Bergen, expected to be much more heavily contested, was escorted by a much larger fleet. The carriers Ark Royal and Glorious, battleships Rodney and Warspite, battlecruiser Repulse, cruisers Devonshire, Sheffield, Glasgow, Enterprise, and Southampton, and fourteen destroyers would escort the 24th Guards Brigade, 15th Infantry Brigade, 148th Infantry Brigade, and the French 27th Alpine Brigade to Bergen, as well as maintenance crews for Allied aircraft. The 27th Alpine and 24th Guards would be sent to Oslo, while the 15th and 148th would aid the Norwegians in making sure Bergen would hold once the Germans inevitably drove north. Bergen would also serve as a refueling stop for the aircraft being sent to Oslo in an effort to deny the Germans air supremacy. The ships would reach Bergen on the evening of the 16th.
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Chapter XXV: The Next Moves
Vizeadmiral Günther Lütjens stood on the bridge of the battleship Gneisenau, watching the sea slide by the ship as she and her sister, Scharnhorst, steamed south, trying to avoid the British heavy units he correctly believe to be to his north. Gneisenau’s Caesar turret was still disabled, as a result of a 38cm shell hit from HMS Renown during the engagement off the Lofoten Islands. Scharnhorst was having turbine problems, so neither ship was operating at full efficiency, meaning they would have trouble if engaged by British ships. News of Oslo still in Norwegian hands, a decisive Norwegian victory in Bergen, the sinking of Karlsruhe off Kristiansand, damage to German ships in Trondheim as well as the Norwegian forces there holding out northeast of the city, and finally, the failure of the attack on Narvik by the destroyers his ships had been escorting just days before had Lütjens convinced that Operation Weserübung was a failure, and he was frantic to get the two battleships to safety before they too became casualties. The destroyers Z5 and Z6 had joined the twins off Trondheim that morning, 11 April, while the other ships staying at Trondheim were too damaged to make the voyage, except for Z16, which was helping defend the city. The ships were off Alesund at the moment, though a ways out to sea.
Lütjens’ musings were interrupted by the shouts of lookouts: “torpedoes to port!” The Vizeadmiral rushed to the port side of his flagship. Six torpedo tracks were racing through the water, heading for the two battleships. Gneisenau turned hard to starboard, as did Scharnhorst, the latter of which the torpedoes looked to be aimed towards. Lütjens watched, praying that Scharnhorst would avoid the torpedoes, but she didn’t. One torpedo hit the ship near Caesar turret. A damage report was soon received: the torpedo had destroyed the port propeller shaft, disabled Caesar turret, killed somewhere around 50 men, opened the hull to over a thousand tons of water, and her speed had to be decreased to 20 knots. Lütjens swore. This campaign could only get worse.
The crew of the Norwegian submarine C3 cheered as their Captain reported one of their torpedoes had hit a German battleship. C3 had been at sea for several days, patrolling out to sea parallel with Alesund to cut off German ships retreating from Trondheim and Narvik. She’d done her job, inflicting the latest casualty on the Kriegsmarine.
Kriegsmarine Headquarters, Thursday, 11 April, 18:00 hours
Eric Raeder had had a very bad week. The Kriegsmarine had lost one heavy cruiser with two damaged badly, three light cruisers with one beached, ten destroyers with one badly damaged, four torpedo boats, and many minor ships. Now, the news was that Gneisenau and Scharnhorst had engaged a British battlecruiser, resulting in Gneisenau’s Caesar turret being disabled, and this afternoon, Scharnhorst had been heavily damaged by a torpedo. All these losses, and Hitler still expected the Kriegsmarine to protect convoys to southern Norway and send an expedition to relieve Trondheim immediately! The original plan had been for Scharnhorst, the newly repaired Nürnberg, two destroyers, and a couple of torpedo boats to immediately refuel and escort some fast transports to Trondheim, but now Scharnhorst was not capable of that, and Gneisenau needed repairs to her turret! Why couldn’t that fat, lazy Goering just airlift supplies and stop complaining about his losses in Oslo and the distance! The Kriegsmarine would have to go through the Royal Navy to get to Trondheim. Surely the Luftwaffe’s expensive new transports could fly over some mountains and brave a few biplanes!
The only good news was that the light cruiser Nürnberg had been repaired ahead of schedule, and was now working up off Kiel. She, Z5, Z6, Kondor, and the two torpedo boats escorting Bismarck, which was currently screening convoys in the Skagerrak, would form a decent escort group. The only large ship outside of the pre-dreadnoughts, which were currently providing fire support in Oslofjord, that was up for such an operation was Bismarck, her crew still familiarizing themselves with the massive ship, which wasn’t operating at peak efficiency. Raeder sighed at the thought of sending some of his last operational vessels on such a risky mission. The ships would refuel in Stavanger and escort the troopships Europa and Bremen, carrying with a total of 6,000 men, to Trondheim, along with badly needed supplies. The two ocean liners, sitting in port since the start of the war, were in the process of being crewed and loaded as of 10 April at the Fuhrer’s orders, with as many wood furnishings ripped out as possible, as they would cause a fire to spread easily, while a handful of 2cm AA guns were bolted onto their decks, and while they weren’t proper troopships, they were fast and could carry many men, which was what was needed for this desperate mission. The hurriedly assembled force, with Bismarck replacing Scharnhorst, for better or worse, would sail from Stavanger on the evening of 16 April, and land its cargo mid-afternoon the next day.
Across the North Sea, First Lord of the Admiralty Winston Churchill was smoking a cigar. Thank God Ark Royal and Glorious’ departures to the Mediterranean had been delayed, and now cancelled, their new missions being to Norway. The Royal Navy was scrambling to get more ships and men to Norway and join the battle, which seemed to be going rather well for the Norwegians, all things considered: Narvik and Bergen had given the invaders a bloody nose, the Germans were in control of Trondheim after casualties but the Norwegian Army units in the area had regrouped, the Army in Oslo was holding its own.
The current priorities were to reinforce Bergen and send land and air units to Oslo via the city, as well as take Trondheim from the Germans. Once these things were finished, the Germans would be isolated in southern Norway and gradually pushed back, costing Hitler a large amount of men and steel. The thing that disappointed Churchill the most was the failure of the Royal Navy to catch the battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, which aerial reconnaissance had spotted south of Norway a few hours prior, but the crippling losses to the Kriegsmarine had him in good spirits.
The current plan was for the carrier Furious, loaded with 18 Skua and 9 Swordfish bombers, escorted by the cruiser Suffolk and four destroyers, to hit Trondheim harbor with her aircraft and sink the operational German destroyer in the town, as well as the cruiser Admiral Hipper, still repairing her damage according to the Norwegians, whom he had great admiration for-they had crippled the Kriegsmarine and held their own on land. Meanwhile, the battleships Resolution, Valiant, the cruisers Effingham, York, and Berwick, as well as eight destroyers, the cruisers carrying the 146th Infantry Brigade and French 5th Alpine Brigade, would arrive off Trondheim a few hours later. In a plan devised by Sir Roger Keyes, who had unsuccessfully volunteered to lead the mission, Resolution, Effingham, Berwick, and four destroyers would force the entrance to Trondheimsfjorden, with Furious’ aircraft spotting for them as well as warning of threats. They would bombard the coastal batteries with their heavy guns and land a battalion of British infantry to take the battered fortresses, opening the way for the troopships and cruisers to land their occupants, while the 4,000-odd Norwegians north of Trondheim would attack. If this worked, Trondheim would fall. The attack was to take place the morning of 17 April.
The reinforcement of Bergen, expected to be much more heavily contested, was escorted by a much larger fleet. The carriers Ark Royal and Glorious, battleships Rodney and Warspite, battlecruiser Repulse, cruisers Devonshire, Sheffield, Glasgow, Enterprise, and Southampton, and fourteen destroyers would escort the 24th Guards Brigade, 15th Infantry Brigade, 148th Infantry Brigade, and the French 27th Alpine Brigade to Bergen, as well as maintenance crews for Allied aircraft. The 27th Alpine and 24th Guards would be sent to Oslo, while the 15th and 148th would aid the Norwegians in making sure Bergen would hold once the Germans inevitably drove north. Bergen would also serve as a refueling stop for the aircraft being sent to Oslo in an effort to deny the Germans air supremacy. The ships would reach Bergen on the evening of the 16th.
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Driftless
Donor
Considering that the German fleet is severely wounded, their Trondheim reinforcement convoy is the definition of high risk. The British and French have both more powerful warships, and in much better operating condition, plus more open sea to work with (West and North). Their reinforcement convoys are risky too, but an order of magnitude less, I'd think.
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However, the ships escorting the convoys are tied to the convoys-they have troopships in them, after all. Other than them, the RN doesn't have much else for capital ships in home waters, as Renown is under repair as per OTL. If Bismarck arrives off Trondheim simultaneously with the British BB's, she'll be dueling Valiant and Resolution, the latter of which may not even get into firing range, and Biz is still a 40,000 ton BB, while Valiant is a modernized QE from WW1
We could see a clash between an old R class a modernised QE and 3 heavy cruisers vs Bismarck and her escorts. The Bismark's not worked up though which stands in the RN's favour but its still two rather old ships vs one very modern one.
Excellent update, the twins are KO'ed for a few months at least and depending on what happens to the Bismarck will tell us of Hitlers reaction towards keeping the rest of the surface fleet around.
Excellent update, the twins are KO'ed for a few months at least and depending on what happens to the Bismarck will tell us of Hitlers reaction towards keeping the rest of the surface fleet around.
Driftless
Donor
The German troop ships need to traverse the length of the North Sea and part of the Norwegian Sea to reach Trondheim. That puts them in range of the RAF(debatable impact, but the Germans need to allow for that). The British can loop in from the West or even from the North from their bases in Scotland - a less risky passage.
Driftless
Donor
I'd think the RN would accept the loss of both battleships and even the cruisers to hammer on the Bismark, and especially the troop ships. They're the real prize here
Of course Warspite will be around to reinforce the fleet shortly. As for the twins Gneisenau as per otl can probably be repaired inside of a month
Driftless
Donor
I beleive the Germans had a number of Destroyers in various stages of the construction queue, along with many repairs to other ships, but after the butcher's bill is toted up, what long-term decisions are made about the surface fleet?
Probably.
Warspite is in the Bergen convoy. The question with Gneisenau, of course, is if there are enough seagoing ships to escort her outside of the harbor. If the Trondheim convoy succeeds, the ships will have a tough time getting home, and most of the operational destroyers and tb's are with the convoy, and if it fails, well... however, a bloody nose to the RN, as well as a decisive win at Trondheim, could start a pincer offensive on Bergen, as well as a good chance of cutting the Bergen-Oslo rail link.
Only time and a fuhrer who might start heavy doses of drugs earlier will tell
I have to ask why they are both trying to head north when the invasion would really be won in the south?
Would GB not want to get Sola back under control as its the only airbase the LW can get working and the Germans like wise want to get the south and capture Oslo as the north will then fall and means shorter securer supple lines?
Trondhiem is both isolated and held by a weaker German force and more Norwegians surrounding them its simply unlikely to be decisive and can simply be allowed to wither?
mattep74
Kicked
Bismarck not having a tour of the North Atlantic but is relegated to escorting troop ships, the legend will not be there. Well, the crew of the Scharnhorst can feel more happy if the ship goes down now becauce they will not be subject to the ice cold waters of the Barents sea in the middle of winter
Why do I get the feeling that the Bismarck will take down/cripple Resolution and then die to Valiant and her escorts via the death of a thousand cuts. Nuremberg is screwed since 4 to 1 odds are not good especially when all of your opponents out mass you and 3 of them out gun. Heck if I was in command of the RN force I'd get Effingham and one of the Counties to aid the destroyers in killing their German counterparts so they can then go do a torpedo run on the Bismarck. And maybe a deus ex Warpsite will show up
ARE YOU READY TO RUMBLE
in a week....
Stavanger is ~95 air miles south of Bergen, so the RN carriers, if they have anything that vaguely resembles decent scouting should see BISMARCK and the convoy well before the Bergen convoy gets near the destination. The challenge for the RN is that the ships that can catch up to BISMARCK can't kill him and the ships that can kill BISMARCK can't catch him. All of that is predicated on BISMARCK maneuvering independently and efficienctly. Those assumptions fail if BISMARCK eats a Swordfish delivered sandwhich AND/OR is tightly tethered to the troop convoy.