I'm a big blimp fan and there would be a role, not only in ASW but search and rescue...once the Luftwaffe is put on the defensive, a Bergen-Edinburgh run looks feasible and would help cut down U-boat activity...blimps would also have some sort of SAR capability as well
Det som går ned må komme opp-An Alternate Royal Norwegian Navy TL
- Thread starter CV(N)-6
- Start date
What excited me the most was the prospect of Allied orders (realistically probably just British, it is sheer romance wanting some Norwegian crewed and flagged blimps) a year or more in advance of the US entering the war. OTL the USN was slow to take its coastal patrol responsibilities seriously, despite fighting tooth and nail to wrest these from the Army in the mid-30s. Army responsibility was I believe based on early century tech whereby coastal defense was largely a matter of shore artillery batteries; Army LTA in part emerged from coastal scouting for this purpose, going back to kite balloons early in the century--along with battlefield deployment of such observation platforms--smaller Army blimps were often called "motorized balloons." The effect of the Navy claiming the mission on LTA was to sweep up pretty much the entire Army inventory of blimps and leave the Army with few grounds to claim any mission for an airship of any size--legally speaking the US regime monopolizing US produce helium (with no other wells to extract it from being known anywhere in the world at the time--nowadays we know Algerian and Siberian gas fields can offer it too, but neither were known in the WWII era) was for both services, but the Navy kept preempting Army schemes for the most part, or seizing them post-fact, so in effect it was the USN sitting on the entire known world supply of helium in these war years.
So whether the British would develop an interest in airships at all, and whether they would turn to Goodyear as the paramount contemporary designers, and whether the British would want to stick with helium if they can get it (recommended, the blimps might survive careful use with hydrogen but aren't designed for it) and finally whether the US authorities would let them have enough helium, are all open and separate questions. There are motives all these actors have to do these things, even the US alienating some helium (though when people list influential Anglophobes in the USA as late as the opening WWII years, Admiral King is among them, obviously not too fanatically so but perhaps enough to claim vital US security interests in hoarding all the helium we can). It is a fact that OTL if the British had deemed airships vitally useful for their war effort, they surely could have got some, either by home industry (Barnes Wallis for instance was quite active during the war) or by purchase from Goodyear--so we might infer that while the blimps have desirable features, Coastal Command airplanes are quite good enough.
Wanting the Admiralty, or RAF Coastal Command, to show an interest in them well before Pearl Harbor relates to several reasons it would be more likely to have them in Europe much earlier than the OTL ones coming up via Africa. For one thing as the war progresses, avionics installed in airplanes constantly improves and could be good enough pretty soon; blimps are vital for closing the gap more in the early years than later. For another, it has the benefit of jump-starting Goodyear AC over a year earlier; if the plant is in the middle of fulfilling an order for a dozen or so British ordered models, they are much better prepared to start churning them out with an order of magnitude greater order sooner, with larger numbers going to coastal patrol squadrons much earlier. This might lead to greater production and employment earlier of the large M ship, which had a double gondola (not connected to each other rigidly lest this turn the ship into a semirigid, which has more involved math to predict its structural behavior) of which just a few models were made OTL, late in the war. Perhaps we would see the larger still O model, which OTL existed only on paper.
All this was just a wishful daydream of mine--until learning that it is not so easy to close that northern strait! That means what whatever the British have is not adequate and justifies a search for alternative tech--then it becomes a question of whether the Allies can afford the option, as well as whether Uncle Sam approves.
Well, Lend Lease is Norway's friend...and based on what I've seen so far what Norway asks for they'll get...a few blimps aren't an unreasonable request IMO...
I was originally going to include with my previous post, but felt it better to post separately...
IF we are still in 1940 (considering the latest post says 1941), the Norwegians making a request for some blimps could have some interesting butterflies...how about the Goodyear Volunteer Group? some expansion of blimp production and training base as well...
IF we are still in 1940 (considering the latest post says 1941), the Norwegians making a request for some blimps could have some interesting butterflies...how about the Goodyear Volunteer Group? some expansion of blimp production and training base as well...
The -110 was an example. Germany also had e,g, the JU-88. If it means opening up the gap between Norway and Scotland for U-Boat passage it is likely Germany will invest in more long range fighters.
OTL they were a low priority, but with a shift in focus that might change.
Need to catch up to the story to get an overview of the strategic situation, but using Blimps seems like a risky proposition. Flying boats like the Short Sunderland or the PBY Catalina are more likely and less vulnerable in Europe.
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Driftless
Donor
In this universe, there would probably a series of move, counter-move, counter-counter-moves on technology related to the North Sea "gap" The Germans trying to open a window and the British/Norwegians trying to keep it closed.
(All idle speculation on my part) The Fw-200 Condor had range, but was very vulnerable to attack - it was designed primarily as a commercial plane and put into use as a long-range ship hunter. As you noted, other German planes had some range and utility, but how much radius flying North out of Aalborg, Denmark? That is of course if they're trying to disrupt the northern convoys. As the counter-move, in the short run, how do the British/Norwegians keep those snoopers/aerial raiders suppressed? Land-based Fulmars? Beaufighters? (Now there would be a Condor killer) The Mosquito, at some point.....Depending on how long the war goes on, what bit of wunderwaffe might the Germans cook up as the counter-counter-move to the Beaufighter(or whatever weapon the British apply to the problem)?
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The Soviets are trying like OTL, but slipping subs through the German occupied Danish Straits isn’t plausible. The Allies have done some gardening in the region via aircraft, however.
Chapter LVI
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Chapter LVI: Assisting Superpowers
Murmansk, 11 December
The Royal Norwegian Expeditionary Force, or RNEF, was disembarking from the ships that had brought it from its homeland. Comprising some 18,000 men from four Regiments, a modern complement of artillery, some new M3’s, four squadrons of a dozen Hurricanes, and the accompanying logistical elements, such as trucks and construction equipment, the RNEF would reinforce the forces around Leningrad, which was currently under pressure from the Germans, freeing up Soviet forces for elsewhere on the front. The force was important enough that three of the RNN’s destroyers accompanied it to Murmansk along the virtually unchallenged route.
Many of the Norwegians eyed the Soviets suspiciously; it was only just over a decade ago that the entire nation had thought a Red coup was imminent, but now they were assisting the USSR in stopping an outside threat. The Soviets returned the favor, as these were still capitalist Westerners, though not quite as much so as the United States or Britain, and if it wasn’t for the War, the two nations would have tense relations. However, any help was welcome in stopping the German menace, which was currently mere miles outside of Moscow.
Washington, D.C. 14 December 1941
“Admiral King, you must implement a blackout of the entire coast, or else the ships along it will be easy targets at night for rampaging submarines! You need to start organizing convoys escorted by whatever you have on hand, be it ships or aircraft, or even blimps!” Per Askim, the recently assigned Naval Attaché to the Norwegian Embassy in Washington urged the American in charge of this coast. Askim missed commanding the Destroyer Squadron, the face of the RNN, but Willoch, who had been in command of Heimdal a year and a half ago in Narvik, knew what he was doing.
“I don’t get why you and the damned Brits insist on these measures, they make organizing arrivals and departures a headache, and cripple the efficiency of the ships, because they can’t make money while sitting in port. The blackout would make morale plummet, these people can’t feel like they live in a war zone!” King retorted.
“The ships can’t make money if they’re sunk, and morale can’t avoid plummeting if a large number of sailors don’t come home or come home forever for no good reason!” Askim was astonished. The Americans were a bit hard headed, he’d thought, but he had thought they would at least have the brains to do the obviously safe thing.
“There will be an uproar!” King spluttered.
Askim just shook his head and made a mental note to send a message up the ladder to have Crown Prince Olav mention the topic to President Roosevelt when they met in early January. The President, who had helped implement convoys in the previous War, would hopefully be more receptive. Until then, Per would do what he could to convince the Americans to save their merchantmen from the imminent menace probably on its way right now. It seemed everyone needed Norway’s help, whether they knew it or not.
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Chapter LVI: Assisting Superpowers
Murmansk, 11 December
The Royal Norwegian Expeditionary Force, or RNEF, was disembarking from the ships that had brought it from its homeland. Comprising some 18,000 men from four Regiments, a modern complement of artillery, some new M3’s, four squadrons of a dozen Hurricanes, and the accompanying logistical elements, such as trucks and construction equipment, the RNEF would reinforce the forces around Leningrad, which was currently under pressure from the Germans, freeing up Soviet forces for elsewhere on the front. The force was important enough that three of the RNN’s destroyers accompanied it to Murmansk along the virtually unchallenged route.
Many of the Norwegians eyed the Soviets suspiciously; it was only just over a decade ago that the entire nation had thought a Red coup was imminent, but now they were assisting the USSR in stopping an outside threat. The Soviets returned the favor, as these were still capitalist Westerners, though not quite as much so as the United States or Britain, and if it wasn’t for the War, the two nations would have tense relations. However, any help was welcome in stopping the German menace, which was currently mere miles outside of Moscow.
Washington, D.C. 14 December 1941
“Admiral King, you must implement a blackout of the entire coast, or else the ships along it will be easy targets at night for rampaging submarines! You need to start organizing convoys escorted by whatever you have on hand, be it ships or aircraft, or even blimps!” Per Askim, the recently assigned Naval Attaché to the Norwegian Embassy in Washington urged the American in charge of this coast. Askim missed commanding the Destroyer Squadron, the face of the RNN, but Willoch, who had been in command of Heimdal a year and a half ago in Narvik, knew what he was doing.
“I don’t get why you and the damned Brits insist on these measures, they make organizing arrivals and departures a headache, and cripple the efficiency of the ships, because they can’t make money while sitting in port. The blackout would make morale plummet, these people can’t feel like they live in a war zone!” King retorted.
“The ships can’t make money if they’re sunk, and morale can’t avoid plummeting if a large number of sailors don’t come home or come home forever for no good reason!” Askim was astonished. The Americans were a bit hard headed, he’d thought, but he had thought they would at least have the brains to do the obviously safe thing.
“There will be an uproar!” King spluttered.
Askim just shook his head and made a mental note to send a message up the ladder to have Crown Prince Olav mention the topic to President Roosevelt when they met in early January. The President, who had helped implement convoys in the previous War, would hopefully be more receptive. Until then, Per would do what he could to convince the Americans to save their merchantmen from the imminent menace probably on its way right now. It seemed everyone needed Norway’s help, whether they knew it or not.
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Very good thinking getting the Norwegians on this. From what I can tell, King had some deep psychological issues that prevented him from working properly with the British in the Battle of the Atlantic—he even banned USN officers from going to the Western Atlantic Tactical Unit, which was where its tactics were developed. The USN officers had to visit unofficially in their own spare time.
The Allies want to prevent a disaster, the Norwegians and Americans get along well, the British can add two and two. King was far from a competent officer sometimes.
I think Crown Prince Olav will have a far easier time convincing people than Churchill would...
What I'm intrigued about at this point is will there be a siege of Leningrad OTL? Sounds like to me that a land corridor will stay open.
What I'm intrigued about at this point is will there be a siege of Leningrad OTL? Sounds like to me that a land corridor will stay open.
Chapter LVII
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Chapter LVII: A Good Start
3 January 1942
“The Expeditionary Force has fared well in its early engagements thus far. The biggest needs are heavier guns and tanks, as well as more aircraft, but they are dug in well south of Petr- Leningrad, and won’t be going anywhere soon,” The officer briefing Nilsen and his cabinet explained. “We have spoken to the Soviets about using some of their equipment, which they don’t seem thrilled about, but the Americans are capable of lending us some of their heavier tanks, as well as the larger artillery they can spare.”
“Though the type of combat these men are seeing has changed from small engagements they were trained for before 1940 to large battles, they have proven to be capable of defending against incoming attacks, and making do with their lighter weapons. The Soviets gave them a grudgingly high opinion, and the northern front has stabilized as the German advance has been bogged down by the weather and, we suspect, logistics. Our men are equipped to fight in the winter, as our climate is also cold, especially to the northern part of the country, and this is perhaps at least a contributing factor to their success.”
Skagerrak, 3 January
The bridge crews of Sleipner and Odin were infinitely thankful to the naval architect who put enclosed bridges on their ships. The wind was howling, low cloud cover hung over the destroyers, and the sea was beginning to stir. Thankfully, this meant the chances of aircraft spotting or attacking the two ships were very low. The Danish coast was just barely on the horizon, while a close watch was kept for hostile ships. It didn’t take long for the destroyers to close the range as they neared an incomplete section of the Northern Wall. The destroyers turned to unmask their rear weapons, the rangefinders and fire control computers went to work, and the gun crews waited for the order.
“Fire!” The gunnery officer ordered.
Nine twelve centimeter high explosive shells were spat from their gun barrels, arcing towards Hitler’s obsession. By the time they landed, the guns had fired two more times. Despite the weather, the forced laborers were still working, but they scattered quickly. But they didn’t bring their equipment with them, including several 15cm barrels. The destroyers worked over the stretch of under-construction fortifications for just over two hours before heading back out to sea, leaving a devastated section of the incomplete wall behind. They had barely left when an approaching force appeared on the eastern horizon, soon identified as three destroyers, not friendly, as they proved soon after by opening fire. The Norwegians made smoke and ran, returning fire.
Destroyers, never the best gun platforms, were even worse off at fairly long range in fairly heavy seas, especially the German Type 36, armed with 15cm guns that had difficulties in good weather, of which three were pursuing the Norwegians, and not hitting anything. Halfway across the Skagerrak, a force of ships appeared from the east, and another from the west. The eastern consisted of Aeger, Heimdal, and a pair of N-class ships, while the cruiser Sheffield, fresh from Force H, and a half-flotilla of Tribals sliced in from the west. The Germans turned immediately, and nearly got away, until a shell from the cruiser smashed into the trailing destroyer’s engine room. The eastern force traded hits with the two undamaged Germans prior to one destroyer of the latter successfully disengaging, while the second, slowed by shells, was slowly run down. Their colleague disabled by Sheffield was quickly sunk. The Kriegsmarine’s surface threat continued to diminish, while, to Hitler and some others, the threat of invasion from the North increased.
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Chapter LVII: A Good Start
3 January 1942
“The Expeditionary Force has fared well in its early engagements thus far. The biggest needs are heavier guns and tanks, as well as more aircraft, but they are dug in well south of Petr- Leningrad, and won’t be going anywhere soon,” The officer briefing Nilsen and his cabinet explained. “We have spoken to the Soviets about using some of their equipment, which they don’t seem thrilled about, but the Americans are capable of lending us some of their heavier tanks, as well as the larger artillery they can spare.”
“Though the type of combat these men are seeing has changed from small engagements they were trained for before 1940 to large battles, they have proven to be capable of defending against incoming attacks, and making do with their lighter weapons. The Soviets gave them a grudgingly high opinion, and the northern front has stabilized as the German advance has been bogged down by the weather and, we suspect, logistics. Our men are equipped to fight in the winter, as our climate is also cold, especially to the northern part of the country, and this is perhaps at least a contributing factor to their success.”
Skagerrak, 3 January
The bridge crews of Sleipner and Odin were infinitely thankful to the naval architect who put enclosed bridges on their ships. The wind was howling, low cloud cover hung over the destroyers, and the sea was beginning to stir. Thankfully, this meant the chances of aircraft spotting or attacking the two ships were very low. The Danish coast was just barely on the horizon, while a close watch was kept for hostile ships. It didn’t take long for the destroyers to close the range as they neared an incomplete section of the Northern Wall. The destroyers turned to unmask their rear weapons, the rangefinders and fire control computers went to work, and the gun crews waited for the order.
“Fire!” The gunnery officer ordered.
Nine twelve centimeter high explosive shells were spat from their gun barrels, arcing towards Hitler’s obsession. By the time they landed, the guns had fired two more times. Despite the weather, the forced laborers were still working, but they scattered quickly. But they didn’t bring their equipment with them, including several 15cm barrels. The destroyers worked over the stretch of under-construction fortifications for just over two hours before heading back out to sea, leaving a devastated section of the incomplete wall behind. They had barely left when an approaching force appeared on the eastern horizon, soon identified as three destroyers, not friendly, as they proved soon after by opening fire. The Norwegians made smoke and ran, returning fire.
Destroyers, never the best gun platforms, were even worse off at fairly long range in fairly heavy seas, especially the German Type 36, armed with 15cm guns that had difficulties in good weather, of which three were pursuing the Norwegians, and not hitting anything. Halfway across the Skagerrak, a force of ships appeared from the east, and another from the west. The eastern consisted of Aeger, Heimdal, and a pair of N-class ships, while the cruiser Sheffield, fresh from Force H, and a half-flotilla of Tribals sliced in from the west. The Germans turned immediately, and nearly got away, until a shell from the cruiser smashed into the trailing destroyer’s engine room. The eastern force traded hits with the two undamaged Germans prior to one destroyer of the latter successfully disengaging, while the second, slowed by shells, was slowly run down. Their colleague disabled by Sheffield was quickly sunk. The Kriegsmarine’s surface threat continued to diminish, while, to Hitler and some others, the threat of invasion from the North increased.
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I love the irony - in the First World War it was the Germans who tried to lure the British ships into a trap.
Happened in WWII too, both sides played that game. The British usually won however.
Graf Spee
Scharnhorst
To name but two.
The Brits tried as well-1st Heliogoland Bight and the second quarter of Jutland are both examples.
Hey everyone, I’ve decided to stop this timeline. I feel like I’m going to have to fill in several years of land-based and political stuff I don’t know enough about to fill in, but after that, it feels like there is no climax to build to. I’m going to take some time to give this timeline a good look over and hopefully reboot it by the end of the year, with the plan being to focus more on the prewar events, and Weserubung, which would theoretically be less of a cakewalk for the Allies so it is more interesting, and spending a lot less time on events afterwards. Thanks for all of the participation in this thread, my first ever timeline, that really gave me a confidence boost, and any feedback, positive or negative(don’t be afraid to tell me what’s on your mind), about the timeline is extremely welcome, I hope to have the pleasure of rebooting this for your enjoyment before 2021.
CV(N)-6
Edit: if anyone reading the TL after it stopped wants to give input/comments since you didn't get the chance while it was in progress, you are more than welcome to PM me.
CV(N)-6
Edit: if anyone reading the TL after it stopped wants to give input/comments since you didn't get the chance while it was in progress, you are more than welcome to PM me.
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