British Florida: the TL

[durante]

How do we think tea culture might develop? Florida seems to be pretty good for growing it. Obviously the south and Britain have their own tea cultures.

How about sports? I had read that horse racing was the most popular sport in the south antebellum; but the decline of the plantation economy as well as the religious revival eliminated it as a popular sport around the turn of the century. I suppose it would stay on in Florida? Perhaps some equivalent to Ascot or Preakness or Melbourne Cup becomes the elite social event?

It turns out that tea is best grown in high altitude tropical areas (like southern China, and distinctly not like Florida) or...low-lying subtropical areas, like Assam...or most of Florida.

In addition, it seems to prefer soils of the same level of acidity that citrus does. And, spoiler alert...Florida is pretty good at growing citrus.

So tea is going to be grown in Florida. It might not be until a large scale commodity until after the abolition of slavery, but because of the distance from Florida to England as opposed to, say, India (at least until Suez), it may even become a significant industry in the area.

As for sports...Bahamas was pretty much an extension of the West Indies (in other words, Cricket country) until around WWI/WWII when it became increasingly North American.

"Virtually everyone" played Cricket until at least the 1970s, but by today....American sports dominate (particularly basketball) although of course cricket is more popular in Bahamas than in Canada or the USA.

Meanwhile in Canada, Cricket was the most popular sport until after Confederation. (Field) Lacrosse replaced cricket by the 1880s and then ice hockey, rugby/Canadian football and baseball were dominant by WWI.

Lacrosse is interesting, as the indigenous groups of the southeast played a similar sport, and IOTL the college game has spread into Carolina and Georgia.

Meanwhile, in the late 19th century it was mildly popular in Australia and Britain. So it is interesting to see the possibility of Lacrosse as a significant sport- although, when Canada switched to "Box" Lacrosse in the 1930s (to fill the empty arenas of pro hockey teams in the off-season), it seems unlikely for Florida to follow - so it would be more like it is in the USA - seen as a college sport, and a fairly middle class and white one. With the notable exception, potentially, of indigenous Floridians.

(It should be noted that this is not the profile of Box Lacrosse in Canada, which is largely seen as a working class sport in the areas in which it is most popular).

I'm also curious about American Football and Baseball.

IOTL, there were 24 semi pro teams in Canada by 1914, all playing in American minor leagues.

In Florida...it seems unlikely that a sport could be commercially successful if the league, athletes, and spectators were segregated...Florida's population will be quite small.

But with the American south being highly segregated...I cant really see many minor pro sports teams joining leagues in the American south before the 1950s or 1960s...unless it was one of the "Coloured" Leagues...(which, IOTL, was the first minor pro league in Florida)...as even mixed-race or Cuban teams had to play in these leagues.

Likewise, Canadian football evolved at U of Toronto from Rugby, because of the desire of the students to play against American universities.

Floridian Colleges and universities are going to be unable to field teams that can compete with American colleges if they are segregated...so what are the odds that Florida colleges keep playing rugby? (Like, for example, the Nova Scotia unis did into the 1950s).

In fact...the contrast between Floridian and American South culture will be much starker and more antagonistic than that between OTL English Canada and the northern US...so it seems likely that Florida would be less influenced by American culture than Canada is, at least between say 1838-1965

 

[durante]

So, my American history reading of late has been quite Florida-centric. And these Florida-centric histories make it seem like Florida was absolutely vital to the Southern war effort, because of Salt, cattle, and the fact that most blockade running came from the Bahamas.

Would a Florida-less Confederacy really be weakened this much? Would they be able to source these things from say, Texas? Or would this mean, especially since Britain may be completely anti-Confederate... that the Civil War is not as long? And/or more disastrous for the South?

 

[FleetMac]

So, my American history reading of late has been quite Florida-centric. And these Florida-centric histories make it seem like Florida was absolutely vital to the Southern war effort, because of Salt, cattle, and the fact that most blockade running came from the Bahamas.

Would a Florida-less Confederacy really be weakened this much? Would they be able to source these things from say, Texas? Or would this mean, especially since Britain may be completely anti-Confederate... that the Civil War is not as long? And/or more disastrous for the South?

Just off-hand, I'd say no especially by comparison to Virginia or Alabama. It certainly wouldn't help the CSA, but I don't think the difference made would be that critical either way.

 

[durante]

How do we expect British diplomacy to differ in regard to the Confederacy with Florida bordering them? My instinct is that Britain would be more outwardly pro-American (in case the Confederacy attempted to invade Florida?), although they would also officially maintain strict neutrality (again to avoid attack or invasion).

Also, any ideas on how the war could play out differently? I am no expert on military matters, and it seems like Florida would have *some* impact. It seems unlikely for the war to play out identically, but I'm not quite sure how to play this other than being vague on the details.

 

[piratedude]

Well it it definitely will affect the Union's efforts to blockade the southern coast, though i can't tell if its for the better or not.

With Britain, or at least Florida's government taking a stronger neutral stance, i doubt that they'd allow smuggling military supplies across the boarder, and if they lean pro-union they might allow union warships to use Floridian harbors to a limited extent

 

[durante]

Couple of thoughts before I feel confident enough to put out an "alt" Civil War chapter:

1) By the end of 1864, (or at the very least, at some point in 1865) it will probably become clear to the British that the Union will win. At this point, would they consider allowing the Americans to use Florida as a means to attack the Deep South? It will only help their relations after the war.

2) On January 1st, 1863 (IOTL), the Emancipation Proclamation is issued. Now of course, it didn't end slavery in the North - but it meant in the eyes of the Union, all the former slaves in the Confederacy were now free. So in theory, not subject to any extradition treaties signed with Florida. In fact, the North might now even encourage Florida to accept black refugees - as a means to undermining the economy of the South, and to force the white planters back to their plantations and therefore undermine recruiting abilities.

It's a win-win for the Union. But how does [the Colonial government of] British Florida react? Do they enthusiastically, or begrudgingly, accept the new migrants?

 

[piratedude]

Well floridian abolishionists would be fairly enthusiastic i think, but would the union really *push* for them to emigrate? Because i think they, even the most radical ones, still wanted the African Americans to stay as productive (primarily agrarian) laborers in the south

 

[revachah2]

Couple of thoughts before I feel confident enough to put out an "alt" Civil War chapter:

1) By the end of 1864, (or at the very least, at some point in 1865) it will probably become clear to the British that the Union will win. At this point, would they consider allowing the Americans to use Florida as a means to attack the Deep South? It will only help their relations after the war.

2) On January 1st, 1863 (IOTL), the Emancipation Proclamation is issued. Now of course, it didn't end slavery in the North - but it meant in the eyes of the Union, all the former slaves in the Confederacy were now free. So in theory, not subject to any extradition treaties signed with Florida. In fact, the North might now even encourage Florida to accept black refugees - as a means to undermining the economy of the South, and to force the white planters back to their plantations and therefore undermine recruiting abilities.

It's a win-win for the Union. But how does [the Colonial government of] British Florida react? Do they enthusiastically, or begrudgingly, accept the new migrants?

I believe if British Florida banned slavery or had a gradual slavery they would benefit from migrants who sought asylum.

As I recall amongst the Creek was a man by the name of Hamley who was noted by Marquis de Lafayette as protecting runaways who performed free labor for him in exchange for asylum: "some negroes... they were some fugitives to whom he had given asylum, who paid for his hospitality with their work."

The british regularly took illegal slave ships after their 1807 and the US's 1808 ban on international slave trade, what's not discussed is that the british made those liberated africans work often on farms and plantations for years.

However in a situation where blacks become majority there may be some anxiety but you know that was most of the British Caribbean so idk how much they would care unless it forced white citizens to go to war for something they want to stay out of.

 

[durante]

I believe if British Florida banned slavery or had a gradual slavery they would benefit from migrants who sought asylum.

As I recall amongst the Creek was a man by the name of Hamley who was noted by Marquis de Lafayette as protecting runaways who performed free labor for him in exchange for asylum: "some negroes... they were some fugitives to whom he had given asylum, who paid for his hospitality with their work."

The british regularly took illegal slave ships after their 1807 and the US's 1808 ban on international slave trade, what's not discussed is that the british made those liberated africans work often on farms and plantations for years.

However in a situation where blacks become majority there may be some anxiety but you know that was most of the British Caribbean so idk how much they would care unless it forced white citizens to go to war for something they want to stay out of.

I suppose economics will play a large part. The economy should be strong throughout the Civil War, because of the opportunities blockade running brings and the downturn of the Confederate economy, who are a natural competitor to Florida.

So "manageable" numbers of refugees from the south would likely be welcomed for labour, although as you point out this labour may be coerced (or worse).

And of course, the welcome would dry up as soon as the demand for labour did. But in a time before social services, and with a more porous border, I'd say significant migration of African-Americans from the south during & after the civil war is inevitable, if only because of the population imbalances.

 

[durante]

Ok once again, rather than get too bogged down by details, I would like to try to finish this or at least bring us into the modern era.

Its unclear exactly how the Confederacy is affected but its unlikely they are strengthened by Florida.

The American Civil War still ends with a Union Victory; the presence of Florida has a strong possibility of changing the reconstruction era in the south; but also fundamentally relationships would change between the USA (particularly the North) and Florida during the Civil War.

Furthermore, although the war initially drives up prices for cotton globally, which is a boon for Florica, by the end of the war, huge new supplies had been developed in Turkey, Egypt, and increasingly India, which saw a glut in the world market and a decline in prices.

So although Florida profits greatly during the Civil War, afterward the basis of their economy has been severely undercut. It might not be the last nail in the coffin of the cotton industry, but once American production begins again after the Civil War, they will be much less competitive.

Do to its smaller population and lower labour costs, and somewhat more capital (due to British investments, buyouts for former slavers and also lack of damage from the war), British Florida should have more capital relative to their economy and thus likely be more mechanized and industrialized during this era.

Citrus and cattle are increasingly important in terms of agricultural products, railways proliferate, and, as the Fin-de-Siecle advances, tourism becomes increasingly important.

IOTL Henry Flagler was hugely important; building hotels in St Augustine and a railway to modern day Miami; (he also had Florida laws changed so he could have his wife declared insane, allowing him to divorce her and remarry but keep her family money).

His involvement is probably butterflied, but there are likely to be other investors. Some from the West Indies, Canada or Britain, of course, but probably mostly still Americans.

Relationships normalize in the decades after the war; however, if reconstruction is ended, like OTL, with the compromise of 1876, the cultural tension between the Deep South and British Florida is likely to rise again...for a brief period, reconstruction USA may even exceed Florida for African-American political power; after this era ends, Florida will become a target for African-American migration, and hopefully the reconstructed south becomes a model for at Florida, at least in the minds of the more liberal factions.

Of course, not long after the American Civil War, Canada is Confederated.

This period would also see relatively large numbers of immigrants from India, China, Italy and Eastern Europe, and Florida grows increasingly cosmopolitan

It seems likely the Florida takes some interest in these developments, during the 19th century OTL both Jamaica and Barbados were mentioned as potential Canadian provinces; but also, perhaps more likely, British Florida begins negotiations with Jamaica, Barbados and the other West Indies about a Confederation of their own.

It also seems like, by this point if not earlier, a University is chartered in St Augustine for the West Indies.

 

[piratedude]

Ok once again, rather than get too bogged down by details, I would like to try to finish this or at least bring us into the modern era.

Its unclear exactly how the Confederacy is affected but its unlikely they are strengthened by Florida.

The American Civil War still ends with a Union Victory; the presence of Florida has a strong possibility of changing the reconstruction era in the south; but also fundamentally relationships would change between the USA (particularly the North) and Florida during the Civil War.

Furthermore, although the war initially drives up prices for cotton globally, which is a boon for Florica, by the end of the war, huge new supplies had been developed in Turkey, Egypt, and increasingly India, which saw a glut in the world market and a decline in prices.

So although Florida profits greatly during the Civil War, afterward the basis of their economy has been severely undercut. It might not be the last nail in the coffin of the cotton industry, but once American production begins again after the Civil War, they will be much less competitive.

Do to its smaller population and lower labour costs, and somewhat more capital (due to British investments, buyouts for former slavers and also lack of damage from the war), British Florida should have more capital relative to their economy and thus likely be more mechanized and industrialized during this era.

Citrus and cattle are increasingly important in terms of agricultural products, railways proliferate, and, as the Fin-de-Siecle advances, tourism becomes increasingly important.

IOTL Henry Flagler was hugely important; building hotels in St Augustine and a railway to modern day Miami; (he also had Florida laws changed so he could have his wife declared insane, allowing him to divorce her and remarry but keep her family money).

His involvement is probably butterflied, but there are likely to be other investors. Some from the West Indies, Canada or Britain, of course, but probably mostly still Americans.

Relationships normalize in the decades after the war; however, if reconstruction is ended, like OTL, with the compromise of 1876, the cultural tension between the Deep South and British Florida is likely to rise again...for a brief period, reconstruction USA may even exceed Florida for African-American political power; after this era ends, Florida will become a target for African-American migration, and hopefully the reconstructed south becomes a model for at Florida, at least in the minds of the more liberal factions.

Of course, not long after the American Civil War, Canada is Confederated.

This period would also see relatively large numbers of immigrants from India, China, Italy and Eastern Europe, and Florida grows increasingly cosmopolitan

It seems likely the Florida takes some interest in these developments, during the 19th century OTL both Jamaica and Barbados were mentioned as potential Canadian provinces; but also, perhaps more likely, British Florida begins negotiations with Jamaica, Barbados and the other West Indies about a Confederation of their own.

It also seems like, by this point if not earlier, a University is chartered in St Augustine for the West Indies.

With a bigger Caribbean presence, would the British be interested in purchasing the rest of the virgin Islands from Denmark (who started looking to sell them in 1866 but didn't work out a deal with the US until 1917)?

 

[durante]

With a bigger Caribbean presence, would the British be interested in purchasing the rest of the virgin Islands from Denmark (who started looking to sell them in 1866 but didn't work out a deal with the US until 1917)?

I would think so. Or perhaps if Britain isn't, Florida would be.

 

[durante]

Ok, it's amazing how sunshine and warmer weather brings me back to the Florida TL. Obviously I'm not ready to jump right up to the 1960s...although having constructed a decent part of our nation's history, I may start to jump back and forth between the "TL" and the modern day (as modern day ATL Florida crystallizes in my mind's eye).

That being said...there's an elephant-sized Mouse in the room.

Considering...that American tourists would be a considerable part of the Florida economy...and that passports weren't needed between Canada and the USA until post-9/11

...could a forward-thinking Prime Minister of Florida provide enough of a tax break/free land/sweetheart deal to get Walt Disney to build DisneyWorld in a Florida that isn't part of the USA? Might create a poll for this as well

 

[Nazi Space Spy]

I'd love to see a list of Floridian prime ministers and the party system at some point! Great stuff so far!

 

[piratedude]

Hmm, an interesting thought. I do know that Florida was one of the early hubs of film production due to the generally warm and sunny weather among other factors, so I could see Florida trying to entice such companies to stay and grow, which might in fact create a competitor to the California based Disney

 

[durante]

Hmm, an interesting thought. I do know that Florida was one of the early hubs of film production due to the generally warm and sunny weather among other factors, so I could see Florida trying to entice such companies to stay and grow, which might in fact create a competitor to the California based Disney

Oooooh yes that's right! If there was already a budding film industry in the area, it could be easier to entice Disney. Just as lower-cost Korean animators are often used for American cartoons these days, animation-heavy Disney could already have a large presence in Florida....interesting.

Cheers!

 

[durante]

I'd love to see a list of Floridian prime ministers and the party system at some point! Great stuff so far!

Well luckily the early development of the political/party system is where I'm headed next!

 

[Pyni]

Ok, it's amazing how sunshine and warmer weather brings me back to the Florida TL. Obviously I'm not ready to jump right up to the 1960s...although having constructed a decent part of our nation's history, I may start to jump back and forth between the "TL" and the modern day (as modern day ATL Florida crystallizes in my mind's eye).

That being said...there's an elephant-sized Mouse in the room.

Considering...that American tourists would be a considerable part of the Florida economy...and that passports weren't needed between Canada and the USA until post-9/11

...could a forward-thinking Prime Minister of Florida provide enough of a tax break/free land/sweetheart deal to get Walt Disney to build DisneyWorld in a Florida that isn't part of the USA? Might create a poll for this as well

Is this Florida a stable and prosperous country like Canada ?

 

[durante]

Is this Florida a stable and prosperous country like Canada ?

It is. Not without its up's and downs, but I imagine the GDP Per Capita to be similar to OTL Bahamas (about $35,000 USD nominal, around $45,000 PPP).

Like Canada, a weak Flurregion dollar helps the economy (based on tourism, agricultural exports and parts manufacturing).

I think the population by modern day would probably be about half of our Florida; although this divergence would take place after 1900. Without open borders with the USA, Florida won't see the net (interstate migration) loss of 44,000 African Americans from 1910-1940 (as part of the Great Migration) and in fact would likely actually be a Great Migration recipient...


And also not nearly as many white Americans will be able to flock there. Many will, of course, just as the USA was an important immigrant source for Canada. But the different racial politics (not perfect, but certainly more equal than the Deep South) may also dissuade certain types of Americans from moving there.

Projected modern racial/ethnic demographics (using American terminology)

Roughly 25% Hispanic (majority Cuban heritage)
Roughly 30% Non-Hispanic White
Roughly 30% Nom-Hispanic Black
Around 1% indigenous
The remainder roughly evenly split between NH Asian (mostly Siuth Asian) and NH mixed race (primarily black-white)

 

[durante]

Other things to look forward too:

-Good chance St Augustine hosts the Commonwealth Games in 1966 and probably Miami (Biscayne?) At some point later.

(It also appears that Miami is on the Mayami River, which is an indigenous name...so the idea that Miami was named after Miami, Ohio might be an exaggeration. The spelling is likely derived from it, though. Does "Myami" look more British to anyone else?)

-every North American sports league experiences butterflies; although the NHL is the last to do so

-Canada and Florida are rumored to merge or one join the other by both populations like, constantly, but it (probably?) never happens

- a look at the educational system and a deep dive into political developments

-Florida attempts to Host a World Cup

-Recipes?