British Florida: the TL

Anyone have any ideas what the flag might/should look like?
Well following the example of other British colonies, when the Floridas are confederated they would officially adopt a blue or red british ensign defaced with the Seal or Arms of the colony.
Screenshot_20230605-220353_Wikipedia.jpg

Im also seeing images of this flag for "the State of Muskogee" which might be drawn on for inspiration.
Screenshot_20230605-220151_Wikipedia.jpg

Likewise, when it gains independence there'd probably be a debate/competition for a new flag around the time they become independent
 
Last edited:
Well following the example of other British colonies, when the Floridas are confederated they would officially adopt a blue or red british ensign defaced with the Seal or Arms of the colony.
View attachment 836211

Im also seeing images of this flag for "the State of Muskogee" which might be drawn on for inspiration.
View attachment 836209

Likewise, when it gains independence there'd probably be a debate/competition for a new flag around the time they become independent
That's a really good idea...
 
I haven't checked on this TL in a while, but it's nice to see it back in action. Of course, I can only wonder what would've happened if the British were able to keep Georgia and South Carolina (evidentially the two most loyal colonies followed by New Jersey and New York) and integrate it into the same dominion as Florida. I ask because apparently there was a book someone on here mentioned that suggested that the French and Spanish IOTL proposed for the British to keep East Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina after the American Revolution. And since Sea World doesn't exist, I wonder if Marineland will cause similar controversies to Sea World IOTL. Nice flag btw.
 
Well following the example of other British colonies, when the Floridas are confederated they would officially adopt a blue or red british ensign defaced with the Seal or Arms of the colony.
View attachment 836211

Im also seeing images of this flag for "the State of Muskogee" which might be drawn on for inspiration.
View attachment 836209

Likewise, when it gains independence there'd probably be a debate/competition for a new flag around the time they become independent
Another thing to consider is that the native tribes of Florida like to use the colors of the cardinal directions (east=yellow, north=red, west=black, south=white), and so those colors should be considered for flag colors, perhaps in the triangular fields delineated by a saltaire?
 
It'd be a bit fiddly, ttl's Floridas has slightly bigger borders.

From east to west, the northern border follows the St. Marys River to its source before jumping up to the 31st Parallel and running west until the Mobile-Tensaw river delta (which river the alt Pickeny treaty picks doesn't particularly matter, the difference is just a bit of wetlands) and then runs south to the gulf. The island territories of course include the Florida keys, the Bahamas, and the Turks & Cacos islands.

Although...I wonder if ittl Bermuda is more closely tied to Florida than the Canada, which could potentially see a faction/party wanting to confederate with Florida post ww2 in the same way the Labrador and Newfoundland joined Canada
Lets hope Bermuda does not go bankrupt the same as Newfoundland, because confederation was driven by that rather than by any feelings of great brotherhood.
 
Another thing to consider is that the native tribes of Florida like to use the colors of the cardinal directions (east=yellow, north=red, west=black, south=white), and so those colors should be considered for flag colors, perhaps in the triangular fields delineated by a saltaire?
1686182831321.png
Maybe something like that?
To be honest, I really like the concept (if not necessarily my execution), although it seems a touch revolutionary. Maybe its a late adoption, the flag of the labour movement, or the Seminoles?
 

Attachments

  • 1686182813066.png
    1686182813066.png
    54.7 KB · Views: 68
I want to discus education for a moment. You've already touched on the establishment of at least 1 university and I'd expect there to be several more by 1914. What I want to talk about are schools and the segregation that will apply.

First there will be two types of school. The National Schools funded by the Floridian Government, and the Fee Paying Schools modelled on the British Public Schools (open to any member of the public that can afford the fees)

The Fee Paying Schools will be the preserve of the wealthy and about 80% White with the rest made up of the most prosperous Mixed Race and the children of co-opted Native tribal chiefs being made "almost one of us".

National Schools while officially non segregated will reflect the communities they serve. There will be mostly White Schools in relatively prosperous areas, Mostly mixed race in middle class areas and a melting pot schools in comfortable working class areas and mostly black and recent immigrant schools in the poorest areas. The facilities these schools have and things like class sizes will be determined by what the community can raise in the local rates on top of whatever basic funding the Floridian government provides. There will also be a marked difference in the ages at which children leave these schools with children in the poorest (and blackest) areas leaving as soon as legally allowed to help support their families, and probably attending part time from the age of 10 until they can leave unless they win a scholarship.
 
First there will be two types of school. The National Schools funded by the Floridian Government, and the Fee Paying Schools modelled on the British Public Schools (open to any member of the public that can afford the fees)

Oh geeze, given OTL trends, there'd be a third type of school: Residential Schools for the Native American children, where they're abused and their cultures are actively suppressed in order to assimilate them.
 
I want to discus education for a moment. You've already touched on the establishment of at least 1 university and I'd expect there to be several more by 1914. What I want to talk about are schools and the segregation that will apply.

First there will be two types of school. The National Schools funded by the Floridian Government, and the Fee Paying Schools modelled on the British Public Schools (open to any member of the public that can afford the fees)

The Fee Paying Schools will be the preserve of the wealthy and about 80% White with the rest made up of the most prosperous Mixed Race and the children of co-opted Native tribal chiefs being made "almost one of us".

National Schools while officially non segregated will reflect the communities they serve. There will be mostly White Schools in relatively prosperous areas, Mostly mixed race in middle class areas and a melting pot schools in comfortable working class areas and mostly black and recent immigrant schools in the poorest areas. The facilities these schools have and things like class sizes will be determined by what the community can raise in the local rates on top of whatever basic funding the Floridian government provides. There will also be a marked difference in the ages at which children leave these schools with children in the poorest (and blackest) areas leaving as soon as legally allowed to help support their families, and probably attending part time from the age of 10 until they can leave unless they win a scholarship.
Cheers! Yes I was hoping to discuss education in my next post.

I suspect Florida will have a strong education system, perhaps even a surprisingly strong reputation internationally. One reason is because, with a university in place, it will likely take the place that Canadian universities served OTL as a spot for the best and brightest West Indians and Bermudians (not just during university, mind you, but all ages of private schools). Another reason is that, as we've seen, there are several notable Floridians who may have made substantial contributions in its early days (including Zephaniah Kingsley, Sr. as well as Moses Levy. But also the USA and Canada had relatively robust education systems for the times, and because of the emphasis placed on education as a necessity for advancement within the communities of colour.

There would almost certainly be more universities; by 1900 IOTL Nova Scotia alone had like 5.

As in Canada, the King's College at St. Augustine likely transitions from being a CoE institution to a nondenominational institution relatively early; another CoE university is a possibility. There are almost certain to be Catholic, Methodist, and Baptist universities. There may be, as at the University of Ottawa, a Catholic and bilingual institution in Pensacola.

Although while we're here I'm thinking that the term "College" will come to be used more in the American way rather than the Canadian way, with a College being a 4-year degree granting institution; universities will, in addition, offer graduate programs and often confederate multiple colleges.

So because of the population, I think we would see many Colleges in the American, not Canadian sense of the word (in Canada a college is a community college, although confederal universities are also divided into colleges, which do not have degree granting authority).

As these early universities in Canada were primarily needed, at least at first, to ordain ministers in the various religions, there will almost certainly be Florida's own Historically Black Colleges and Universities, at the very least one affiliated with the African Methodist Episcopal Church.

I like your description of the various regional distinctions; I have yet to give too much thought to the lower levels of education but this will be quite helpful.

Like the Ontario model we can expect "Grammar Schools" established in each district of Florida from a fairly early date to act as 'high schools' for the colonial elite.

After WWII we can expect a more robust public tertiary system to be established. Influences may include the Beveridge report and the California Master Plan for Education.
 
Maybe its a late adoption, the flag of the labour movement, or the Seminoles?
I like the idea of the labor movement in Florida taking it up, having the different colors to represent the workers of different ethnicities coming together, though that would mean the seminole flag would have to go with their OTL horizontal stripe flag instead of the saltaire style.
 
After WWII we can expect a more robust public tertiary system to be established. Influences may include the Beveridge report and the California Master Plan for Education.
The biggest difference I can see between the US school system and the Floridian one, other than no Jim Crow laws, is that the Floridian students are likely to have to sit an 11 plus exam to decide which schools they attend after primary school.

 
The biggest difference I can see between the US school system and the Floridian one, other than no Jim Crow laws, is that the Floridian students are likely to have to sit an 11 plus exam to decide which schools they attend after primary school.

indeed.
Sporting achievement in the American schooling system seems to be more important than academic achievement in deciding who goes to what school.
 
The biggest difference I can see between the US school system and the Floridian one, other than no Jim Crow laws, is that the Floridian students are likely to have to sit an 11 plus exam to decide which schools they attend after primary school.

And these exams are a double-edged sword. On the one hand, admissions can be designed to that a certain percentage of students from lower class backgrounds, with sufficient grades, are placed into high-performing schools. It can be a method of advancement.

On the other hand, especially in the early days, these exams are likely to be loaded with questions that identify a child's privileged upbringing, rather than any measure of innate intelligence. I recall reading that one of the exam questions on the original 11+ was to define the word "regatta"
 
And these exams are a double-edged sword. On the one hand, admissions can be designed to that a certain percentage of students from lower class backgrounds, with sufficient grades, are placed into high-performing schools. It can be a method of advancement.

On the other hand, especially in the early days, these exams are likely to be loaded with questions that identify a child's privileged upbringing, rather than any measure of innate intelligence. I recall reading that one of the exam questions on the original 11+ was to define the word "regatta"
You also get teachers "teaching the test" rather than providing a balanced education, more wealthy families hiring tutors, and differing levels of provision of places in different catchment areas. Wealthy areas get more Grammar School and Technical School places than poorer ones because the rates can pay for them, and the Secondary Modern Schools get the fewest resources per child. Also in the UK it was found that there were more places for boys than girls. (The thinking was "Why educate girls to that level? They're just going to get married, keep house and have babies). The terminology would likely be different but the same principal would apply.
 
Last edited:
You also get teachers "teaching the test" rather than providing a balanced education, more wealthy families hiring tutors, and differing levels of provision of places in different catchment areas. Wealthy areas get more Grammar School and Technical School places than poorer ones because the rates can pay for them, and the Secondary Modern Schools get the fewest resources per child. Also in the UK it was found that there were more places for boys than girls. (The thinking was "Why educate girls to that level? They're just going to get married, keep house and have babies).
Yes, well it depends how schools are funded. In Canada schools are centrally funded from provincial tax dollars, not local property taxes, consequently while imperfect Canada has some of the best rated public schools on the planet. I'm sure the Labour party would want to adopt this model if they ever got into power...
 
You also get teachers "teaching the test" rather than providing a balanced education, more wealthy families hiring tutors, and differing levels of provision of places in different catchment areas. Wealthy areas get more Grammar School and Technical School places than poorer ones because the rates can pay for them, and the Secondary Modern Schools get the fewest resources per child. Also in the UK it was found that there were more places for boys than girls. (The thinking was "Why educate girls to that level? They're just going to get married, keep house and have babies). The terminology would likely be different but the same principal would apply.
Teaching to the test is a major problem in Ireland where entry into Irish universities is decided by a points test for a public exam called the leaving cert.
This came in in the late 1960s when free secondly education for all was introduced. Secondary schools were funded by the central government. Only VEC technical schools were locally funded. Those were there for people who wanted to do an apprenticeship or work on farms etc. Now there were too many in secondary school for the number of students that might apply so point test was used to ration places in university.
The theory was more people of working-class backgrounds would get into university. In practice, it made no real difference to who went to university.
 
Top