Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond

[SavoyTruffle]

Nice to see Redbone and The Sweet doing just as well IOTL!

How are Yes and Genesis faring TTL? IOTL Rick Wakeman left Yes in 1974 and was replaced by Patrick Moraz after auditioning many replacements, including Vangelis (he of Chariots of Fire fame). Peter Gabriel's also leaving Genesis if the recording of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway goes as OTL.

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Loved the update, @President_Lincoln! Looking forward to more, as always.

Hey, school has treated me okay, but take whatever time you need here and there! The playlist has been updated, and I am loving everything you've been writing.

Quick question though: We still get this masterpiece, right?

 

[John Spangler]

I didn't like this update. I loved it! Cash and Springsteen have always been two of my favorite musicians, and I'm happy to see they're doing well ITTL. The Boss especially. Having him in a relationship with Linda Carter is an interesting idea, and I'm curious to see the long-term results of it.

 

[Hulkster'01]

Where was Elvis?

 

[TheDetailer]

Where was Elvis?

and the Beatles?

 

[SavoyTruffle]

The Beatles released an album in 1973 TTL I think.

 

[President_Lincoln]

Thanks for the music update President Lincoln. It's always interesting seeing what music is different and what stays the same. How do you go about choosing the different music for each decade? And can you say what Curtis Lemay has been up to in TTL? All I know about him is that during World War 2 he was responsible for ordering bombs be dropped on cities in Japan and that he was one of Kennedy's Joint Chiefs of Staff and they clashed over how the Cuban Missile Crisis and that during the 1968 Presidential election he was George Wallace's running mate.

No problem, @Kennedy Forever! Thank you for asking, it's a bit of a process in music selection as you can imagine. Some of it is admittedly driven by my own desire to cover genres which I am interested in. Because outlaw country and rock are my favorite genres, I am more inclined to cover them, though that does not mean they will be the only music I cover in the scope of TTL. If you all have questions or are interested in how other types of music are developing, please feel free to ask.

Great chapter, even if I'm not too familiar with a lot of country singers.

Thanks, @historybuff!

Good update; nice to see the Ramones and Bruce Springsteen doing well, along with Johnny Cash and his contemporaries...

Wonder what disco acts will come to prominence in TTL...

The song "Come and Get Your Love" was sung by Redbone (IOTL and I assume ITTL as well) and was released in January of 1974, so congrats for continuing the pattern, @President_Lincoln and waiting for more...

Thank you, @Unknown!

That was a great update. Though I wonder did Creedence Clearwater Revival ever make an ITTL equivalent of “Unfortunate Son” for the Cambodia War?

You're very kind, @Alpha-King98760. They did! "Fortunate Son" is as much an anthem against class divides as it is military campaigns, and even with the War in Cambodia just ramping up in 1969, I think John Fogerty would still have reason to write it here.

Another great update! Btw, did you did my PM for your supplement TL too? I do have a few things to ask you on then...

As next update will see a pop culture update in the next update, wonder how a Scottish World Cup victory effects a 1970's Britian much like how England's 1966 triumph seem to do that for the 60's?

Either way, keeping an eye out for the next update

I did! Thank you for asking, I apologize that I haven't had the chance to read and respond to it just yet, @QTXAdsy. I'm sure it's great stuff and I look forward to getting to it! As has been suggested by my foreshadowing and yourself and other readers, Scotland's World Cup victory could very well lead to a successful devolution referendum and possibly a Scottish parliament by the end of the decade. I'll be sure to cover all events there as they come up.

Nice to see Redbone and The Sweet doing just as well IOTL!

How are Yes and Genesis faring TTL? IOTL Rick Wakeman left Yes in 1974 and was replaced by Patrick Moraz after auditioning many replacements, including Vangelis (he of Chariots of Fire fame). Peter Gabriel's also leaving Genesis if the recording of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway goes as OTL.

Excellent questions and ones which I had a feeling would come up in the wake of the last update! ITTL, Wakeman does not leave Yes, as he has more influence on the recording of the band's sixth studio album, Tales from Topographic Oceans, and helps clean up some of the sections which critics believed to be "too self-indulgent", resulting in a tighter sounding record and Wakeman continuing on with Yes.

As for Genesis, they continue much along the same path as IOTL. Peter Gabriel's artistic development was moving in a more independent direction for a while, and I think it would take quite a few butterflies for him to remain with the band. As per OTL, Phil Collins takes over as lead vocalist.

Loved the update, @President_Lincoln! Looking forward to more, as always.

Hey, school has treated me okay, but take whatever time you need here and there! The playlist has been updated, and I am loving everything you've been writing.

Quick question though: We still get this masterpiece, right?

You're damn right we do. Thank you, @AeroTheZealousOne, I'm glad to have "Come and Get Your Love" on the playlist, and I can't wait to keep going with the timeline.

Where was Elvis?

and the Beatles?

The Beatles released an album in 1973 TTL I think.

@SavoyTruffle is right here. The Beatles released the fourteenth album of the "core catalog" - Power to the People in 1973. The record was by turns forceful, gentle, folksy-acoustic, and driven toward hard rock, but throughout was consistently political. It marked a new edge in the group's style which has helped keep them relevant several years after their own OTL breakup. John Lennon especially has become a fierce activist for the Labour Party in the UK, and is helping influence the development on Punk in the London style ITTL.

Both Elvis and the Fab Four will make appearances in the upcoming '74 Pop Culture update. Further, Elvis has shifted gears to focus mostly on his film career (acting in more serious films) and being a husband and father for Ann, their daughter Lucy Marie, and another little girl who's on the way soon. I'm happy to answer more questions of course, and the Beatles will get their own update again in 1978 or so, I suspect.

 

[TheDetailer]

I'm happy to answer more questions of course, and the Beatles will get their own update again in 1978 or so, I suspect.

What are Kurt Cobain and Ian Curtis (who have both been born at this point) doing as of yet ITTL?

EDIT: Oh, there was also this I found on the TV Tropes page for Monty Python.

• One idea that never got past a mere concept was to do a sketch in which the sound would gradually get fainter and fainter, forcing viewers to gradually increase the volume on their TV sets, only to then cut to something at regular volume and shock them as the now-cacophonous noise. The Pythons never did it, but it did eventually become a popular staple of YouTube Poop known as "ear rape."

 

[phillymoman1975]

LOVE this last update - and kudos for giving a shout-out to Charlie Pride. I grew up on his music and never get tired of hearing that voice!

 

[Kennedy Forever]

Thanks President Lincoln for your response about how you pick music for the different decades.

 

[DumbersTC]

I'm mildly dissapointed that Carl Douglas' "Kung Fu fighting" wasn't mentioned at all in the latest update. How did it fare up ITTL?

But still, great update.

 

[Dudekebm]

What are Kurt Cobain and Ian Curtis (who have both been born at this point) doing as of yet ITTL?

EDIT: Oh, there was also this I found on the TV Tropes page for Monty Python.

Just a slight nitpick. The photo on the left is actually a still of the actor Sam Riley portraying Ian Curtis in the Joy Division BioPic 'Control' . This is Ian Curtis:

 

[USS_Ward]

Let's not forget John Denvers "Country Roads". That things a classic.

 

[TheDetailer]

Just a slight nitpick. The photo on the left is actually a still of the actor Sam Riley portraying Ian Curtis in the Joy Division BioPic 'Control' . This is Ian Curtis:

K.

 

[President_Lincoln]

What are Kurt Cobain and Ian Curtis (who have both been born at this point) doing as of yet ITTL?

EDIT: Oh, there was also this I found on the TV Tropes page for Monty Python.

Kurt Cobain and Ian Curtis have thus far mostly followed their OTL paths, given that they are both quite young. Curtis, bookish, intelligent child that he was, excelled while a student at St. John's College, earning top marks in History, Divinity, and especially, literature, where he displayed not just a knack, but a true talent for analyzing and writing poetry. He soon grew disillusioned with academic life however, and dropped out out St. John's in January 1975, just before the start of the Spring term. A strong-willed individual, with gripping fascinations with music, fashion, and the power of words, Curtis got a job at the Manchester City Center before eventually finding more stable employment with the Ministry of Defence as a low level civil servant. Though the pay wasn't exceptional, it was enough for Curtis to support himself and, the beginnings of a young family. On August 23rd, 1975, Curtis married Deborah Woodruff, to whom he had been introduced by a mutual friend, Tony Nuttall. Initially becoming friends and dating in 1972, when both were just sixteen years old, the couple's wedding was held at St. Thomas' Church in Henbury, Chesire. Curtis was 19, Woodruff only 18, but they loved each other passionately, and soon, their union would produce a daughter, Natalie, on April 17th, 1979. Though the couple initially lived with Curtis' grandparents, they shortly thereafter moved into a working class neighborhood in Chadderton. In their new place, which while small they managed to make feel like a home, there was one room set aside that would soon become colloquially known by the couple and their acquaintances as Ian's "songwriting room". He desperately wanted to form a band, but his prospects seemed slim. It wouldn't be until attending a Sex Pistols concert the following year that he would meet a group of childhood friends, and the great Joy Division would be born...

At this point ITTL, Cobain is only a small child, having been born in 1967 to Donald and Wendy Cobain in Aberdeen, Washington. Deeply interested in both music and art, young Kurt is receiving lots of positive reinforcement from his grandmother, Iris Cobain, who was a professional artist, and can often be found drawing characters from his favorite films and cartoons, such as Donald Duck and the Creature from the Black Lagoon, in his bedroom. His parents' marriage is growing quite rocky however, and Kurt, happy, excitable, caring and endlessly sensitive child that he is, is struggling to understand the changes which are occurring all around him. He finds some escape in his music, watching cartoons, and drawing, but he's worried about what the future may hold for his family. I can't promise that Kurt will definitely follow the same path he took IOTL, meaning his future is wide open to be determined by whatever butterflies, world events, and other changes close to home may bring. Could we see a world in which Kurt becomes a cartoonist instead of a musician? It's quite possible. But it could also be that Kurt decides to focus his energies elsewhere entirely. For now, I'll say no more.

I'm mildly dissapointed that Carl Douglas' "Kung Fu fighting" wasn't mentioned at all in the latest update. How did it fare up ITTL?

But still, great update.

Thank you, @DumbersTC! I wanted to mention "Kung Fu Fighting", as it was still written, recorded, and released ITTL, still becoming a smash hit for Douglas admist the swirling popularity of the Kung Fu movie craze. With a surviving Bruce Lee, perhaps the fad can carry on a little longer, and manage to snag Douglas another hit or two if he remains a novelty act? Only time will tell.

 

[cmakk1012]

Fantastic update! The descriptions of the art and artists is so compelling! I really liked your description of Springsteen and his artistic vision.

The post made not too long ago about Cambodian Pop Music was fascinating, and I intend to answer the questions you all had about that, but I want to do some more research first.

Thanks, although I feel kind of guilty putting that kind of pressure on you! My gut suspicion is that there isn’t much English language research on the subject, and the subject matter is already somewhat mysterious thanks to the Khmer Rouge’s destruction of documents. But I look forward to whatever you decide to do with the idea.

 

[Kennedy Forever]

Thanks for telling us about what Kurt Cobain and Ian Curtis have been up to.

 

[RanulfC]

President_Lincoln, I realize it’s too late to change this but having once again caught up with this excellent thread I felt a need to point out the inaccuracy anyway.

You wrote in Chapter 82:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-60s-and-beyond.431559/page-283#post-18351158

Rocketry genius Wernher von Braun had postulated in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s that nuclear powered rockets could easily have the propulsion power and fortitude to take a crew of humans to Mars, or at the very least that they would be significantly more effective than their chemically powered peers. Some basic experimentation was conducted at the micro scale toward this end, though the signing of the Limited Test Ban Treaty by President Kennedy made further research impossible and the project was abandoned by 1965.

You then write:

Following the success of the Apollo-Svarog missions however, von Braun believed that he may have been able to use a Saturn V missile to launch nuclear-powered (NERVA) upper stages that would power two six-crew spacecraft on a dual mission by the early 1980’s.

So are “nuclear powered rockets” of which NERVA is a prime example, “banned” or not? Really I suspect the first instance is related to the Orion “External Pulsed Plasma Propulsion” (EP3, or “Orion-Boom-Boom” system) which was in fact banned by the Test Ban Treaty since it was in effect powered by sequential nuclear explosions. However the treaty specifically excluded things like nuclear power and propulsion that did NOT involve nuclear explosions such as NERVA and satellite power reactors.

The US NERVA and the Soviet Twisted-Ribbon design were two examples of Nuclear Thermal Propulsion systems developed during programs in both nations. The US NERVA program ran through the early 70s while the Soviet one went up until around the mid-80s, (they started later) and both produced prototype ‘flight-weight’ engines.

And if you think the test ban treaty actually stopped research and development of EP3 systems, well you’re only partially right

Work has continued with new nuclear explosion data since underground tests count and “currently” the last official mentions were programs such as “Gabriel Asteroid Defense” concept and some general EP3 research papers on nuclear and non-nuclear launch concepts.
https://space.nss.org/media/2004-Survey-Of-Technologies-Relevant-To-Defense-From-NEOs-NASA.pdf
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20000097368.pdf

RAndy

 

[AndyWho]

At this point ITTL, Cobain is only a small child, having been born in 1967 to Donald and Wendy Cobain in Aberdeen, Washington. Deeply interested in both music and art, young Kurt is receiving lots of positive reinforcement from his grandmother, Iris Cobain, who was a professional artist, and can often be found drawing characters from his favorite films and cartoons, such as Donald Duck and the Creature from the Black Lagoon, in his bedroom. His parents' marriage is growing quite rocky however, and Kurt, happy, excitable, caring and endlessly sensitive child that he is, is struggling to understand the changes which are occurring all around him. He finds some escape in his music, watching cartoons, and drawing, but he's worried about what the future may hold for his family. I can't promise that Kurt will definitely follow the same path he took IOTL, meaning his future is wide open to be determined by whatever butterflies, world events, and other changes close to home may bring. Could we see a world in which Kurt becomes a cartoonist instead of a musician? It's quite possible. But it could also be that Kurt decides to focus his energies elsewhere entirely.

Y'know, just spit-balling here.....with the right incentives, Kurt Cobain may turn Nirvana into the OTL equivalent of Gorillaz before they come around.

 

[President_Lincoln]

President_Lincoln, I realize it’s too late to change this but having once again caught up with this excellent thread I felt a need to point out the inaccuracy anyway.

You wrote in Chapter 82:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-60s-and-beyond.431559/page-283#post-18351158



You then write:


So are “nuclear powered rockets” of which NERVA is a prime example, “banned” or not? Really I suspect the first instance is related to the Orion “External Pulsed Plasma Propulsion” (EP3, or “Orion-Boom-Boom” system) which was in fact banned by the Test Ban Treaty since it was in effect powered by sequential nuclear explosions. However the treaty specifically excluded things like nuclear power and propulsion that did NOT involve nuclear explosions such as NERVA and satellite power reactors.

The US NERVA and the Soviet Twisted-Ribbon design were two examples of Nuclear Thermal Propulsion systems developed during programs in both nations. The US NERVA program ran through the early 70s while the Soviet one went up until around the mid-80s, (they started later) and both produced prototype ‘flight-weight’ engines.

And if you think the test ban treaty actually stopped research and development of EP3 systems, well you’re only partially right

Work has continued with new nuclear explosion data since underground tests count and “currently” the last official mentions were programs such as “Gabriel Asteroid Defense” concept and some general EP3 research papers on nuclear and non-nuclear launch concepts.
https://space.nss.org/media/2004-Survey-Of-Technologies-Relevant-To-Defense-From-NEOs-NASA.pdf
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20000097368.pdf

RAndy

@RanulfC, thank you for your well-researched and thoughtful critiques! I always appreciate when inaccuracies or errors are brought to my attention. I apologize for not being very thorough in my thinking and research for this topic. I admit I am not as well versed in space technology and details as I really ought to be, and am prone to errors in that area, I'm afraid. Do you have any suggestions for how we could resolve this inaccuracy/mishap? I'm open to all kinds of ideas.

Y'know, just spit-balling here.....with the right incentives, Kurt Cobain may turn Nirvana into the OTL equivalent of Gorillaz before they come around.

A world where Kurt Cobain draws his own animated music videos? That could be interesting.