Or differently. Say, Le Grande Dauphin dies not from smallpox, but from horse accident during his favorite wolf hunting (given that Marie Louise d'Orleans LOVED riding and hunting, she would drag her husband along for these pasttimes), and Le Petit Dauphin dies from smallpox, leaving Duchesse de Bourgogne with her two sons
Derek Pullem
Donor
Possible yes. Inevitable no.
It is probable that Anne miscarries all her remaining pregnancies - but not certain. It is likely that Eugene will go on to be a brilliant general - but he could end up dead, struck by a stray shot from a cannon.
Given the number of decisions (even those you don't realise you are making like retaining OTL political appointments) then it would be unlikely for everything to remain the same. Equally unlikely is the case where everything changes. And given that AH timelines are actually a collective experience where the author puts forward a world based on a change in the current timeline, it would not be very engaging if the PoD resulted in a completely unrecognisable world - because butterflies.
In that case you may as well be writing fantasy novels.
A lot of the problem with Chaos Theory is people read CAN as WILL. Just as one butterfly flapping CAN cause an Empire to fall , a million butterflies flapping CAN do nothing, both are possible. Take weather . its chaotic and complex but one man dying rather than recovering cannot change it in the slightest for decades if it all.
There is stupid hanging on to butterfly net (like the thing that spoiled enjoyment of recent Rupert TLIAW for me - Gustavus Adolphus survives, yet 30 Years War SOMEHOW ends in OTL timespan, and campaigns of 1630ies are only cosmetically altered), and there is buttefly net to keep the story interesting.
Chapter 36: Trial By Peer
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 36: Trial By Peer
November, 1692
November, 1692
William kept his face blank as the lords filed in, he was sat at the front of the hall, with the government’s lawyer, the Attorney General Sir Thomas Powys, Barons Powys facing him. The Earl knew that the fate of his family rested on his trial. How it had come to this he did not know, they were supposed to get away with it and diminish the prestige that the Princess had. Now, they were all facing trial, and the Princess was likely to be able to shape opinion in Parliament for the next decade. Despite his influence in the Commons, William had been outflanked by Robert Spencer 3rd Earl of Sunderland and son of the deceased 2nd Earl, who had used his patronage powers to convince the moderate Whigs to vote in favour of the Articles of Impeachment that had been placed before the Commons. Now here he was.
The Lord Chancellor, a green boy named Cowper was presiding. “Order, order.” The Lords fell quiet. “We are gathered here today to begin the trial of William Cavendish, Earl of Devonshire on several accusations of treasonable intent. The procedure is the same as that that was used for the trial of his peers the Earl of Shrewsbury and Baron Sidney.” The Lord Chancellor said nothing for a moment allowing what he had said to settle in, he then turned to the Attorney General and said. “Sir Thomas you may begin.”
“Thank you, my lord.” the newly ennobled Sir Thomas said, he would be retiring after this case, William knew, and would no doubt want to end on a high. “My lords, the accused knows what he has done, but I shall repeat it for the benefit of you all. He stands accused of forging a letter in Her Highness the Princess Anne Duchess of Cumberland’s hand, in order to falsely accuse her of treasonable intent. He stands accused also of being the one behind a plot to remove His Majesty’s father King James from the throne and to install a new monarch upon the throne, and that this plot is still ongoing. Those are the charges before him, Lord Devonshire, what do you have to say?”
William looked at Sir Thomas, only at Sir Thomas and at nobody else. He said nothing for a beat, and then replied. “I deny the charge that I had a hand in forging the letter. That was all Shrewsbury’s work. I knew nothing of his intent to do so, and the first time I heard about it, was when I was told of what had happened.”
Sir Thomas looked at him and asked. “And how did you feel when you heard this?”
“Disgusted.” William said. He knew he was lying, but he had to keep his lines straight for the good of the family. “I could not believe the man had done something like that.”
“And why do you think he had done it?” Sir Thomas asked.
Careful, he wants you to fall into his trap. William’s mind warned him. again he took a moment to reply and then said. “Because he had become convinced that the regency council under the Princess was a threat to the order established after the restoration.” It was half true.
“And why then if you think that you had no knowledge of what he intended to do, the man said quite clearly that you were one of the few who knew what he was planning to do and that you even encouraged it?” Sir Thomas asked.
William wanted to swear then, he should have covered his ears when Shrewsbury had said that, but instead he had actively gone along with it. He knew to admit to that would mean his death and the failure of his family. He could not allow that; he had worked far too hard for that. So, taking a deep breath he said. “I do not know. Shrewsbury is someone who wishes to survive at all costs, he knows that he could not hope to survive on his own therefore he wishes to bring down my name with slander.”
Someone snorted on the government benches, it sounded oddly like the Marquess of Halifax, the man who William had come to loathe with every fibre of his being given the conversations they had had during the reign of King James’ father. Pushing down his irritation he looked at Powys. “I see, so it is slander. But what of the accusations made by the Earl of Shrewsbury that you were also part of a plot to remove the King’s father, as well as the King himself. That you were going to spread false rumours about the King’s birth?”
“I…” William began, and before he could continue Sir Thomas added.
“Bearing in mind that this House has seen the evidence of letters between yourself and Prince William discussing plans and plots and the gathering of support.”
William hesitated then, he knew then that perhaps he was dug into a corner with no possible way out other than to confess to one crime, but phrase it in such a way as to not make it a crime. “I admit that I was part of discussions with Shrewsbury and others about how to handle the future of King James’ reign. The man was breaking everything that his brother King Charles had worked for, and things were getting desperate. However, at no point did I ever consider removing King James from the throne. The discussions with Prince William were simply about how to handle the King, and asking him to mediate in a dispute with the King.”
There was another snort from the government benches, which prompted Cowper to say. “I implore the lords to maintain decorum during this proceeding, thank you.”
Sir Thomas looked at him, and as he looked back, William got the feeling that his very being was being examined down to his soul. It made him shift uncomfortably. “And the claim that you were going to deny the King his right to the throne and invite Prince William to take the throne?”
“Completely false, I would never commit such treason. The King is the King.” William said, he then added. “Furthermore, King James, God Bless his soul, died in an accident, so whatever disputes we might have had with him died with him. I am loyal to the King.”
William held his breath as Sir Thomas seemed to consider this, the man then said. “Very well, the government has no further questions.” Sir Thomas sat down.
William did not exhale until the Lord Chancellor said. “We shall take a short break, before hearing evidence from further witnesses.” As the man banged his gavel, William exhaled and then slumped down in his chair. He was exhausted.
Chapter 37: Reckoning
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 37: Reckoning
November, 1692
November, 1692
Anne arrived at Somerset House, the London residence of the Duke and Duchess of Somerset who were two of her closest friends and hurried inside. She had come as soon as she had heard the latest from the trials of the traitorous peers Shrewsbury and Devonshire, and had asked Sidney Godolphin and Sir Thomas as well as the Duke of Somerset to be present when she arrived. As she was shown into the Duke’s solar, she was happy to find them there. They bowed before her and then took their seats once she was seated.
“Well?” She demanded. “How is it going?”
“About as well as we can hope, Your Highness.” Sidney said. “Shrewsbury looked completely defeated during the questioning.”
“He did?” Anne asked, that surprised her, she could not imagine Charles Talbot looking as though he might give up.
“Yes, Your Highness.” Sir Thomas replied. “He will be easy to break if more questioning is needed.”
Anne raised an eyebrow, it had been months already of investigation and then questioning. She hoped that this day would see it all end. “You don’t think such a thing is necessary, do you?”
“I do not think so, Your Highness. Shrewsbury and Devonshire spoke today. Sidney and Somers both spoke yesterday. The Commons voted for impeachment a week ago, so now the decision must be made.” Sir Thomas said.
Anne knew that she could not ask what had been said during the trial until it was done, so instead she asked. “So, where do we go from here?”
“We only have Thomas Trenchard to question and then it will go to a vote.” Sir Thomas said.
“Good.” Anne replied. She knew Thomas had been briefed on what to say by Sir Thomas and by Cowper. “And then we can move on from this and onto other things?” She asked hopefully.
“Yes, if the Lords finds reason to find them guilty of treason then the Commons should follow suit and then it will be for you to decide whether it goes for hanging or something else, Your Highness.” Sir Thomas replied.
“You do not think the Lords will find them guilty?” Anne asked, a fear coming into her mind then. If the Lords didn’t do that, then her own position would be doubly difficult.
“I am confident they will, Your Highness. The evidence is quite high and shows that Shrewsbury was a ring leader for this cabal of theirs. However, some of the lords there owe their positions in society to Devonshire, or Shrewsbury’s influence. Furthermore, there are those who know that both men have secrets on them.” Sir Thomas said.
“Danby, being the main one.” Sidney said. “You could tell they wanted to say something on him but didn’t.”
Anne looked at him and asked. “What do you mean?” She had always thought Danby was one of the more fanatically loyal men to her uncle and father.
“Thomas Osborne looks as if he aged a great many years since his elevation to the peerage and his time in exile from court, Your Highness. There was talk outside of the House, that something had happened between him and Devonshire that meant that he was Devonshire’s man now.” Sidney said.
Charles Seymour, Duke of Somerset nodded. “Indeed, I had heard that as well, Your Highness. What that thing is, I do not know. But I would keep a careful eye on him.”
“Should I invite him back to court?” Anne asked.
“Oh heavens no!” Sidney said immediately. “He is old and finished.”
“So, what do I do with this information?” Anne demanded.
“Nothing yet, Your Highness. Allow this trial to finish and then we can see what to do.” Sidney said soothingly.
Anne nodded and then said. “You had best return to Parliament then, before they notice your absence. I shall go first.” With that she stood, nodded to them all and then walked out. As she made her way through the hallway and back into the carriage, she wondered at what Devonshire had on Danby. Perhaps she would need to invite his son into court, and tempt him with a peerage himself, to make Danby move away from Devonshire. Yes, she’d speak with George about it after all this business was done and proceed from there.
She got into the carriage, and told the horseman to go, as the horse moved, she winced slightly. Her leg was paining her again. She’d need to see the doctor about that as well.
unprincipled peter
Donor
So far in this TL, we have an initial POD of James II having the prescience to have full audience for the birth of James III followed up by James II death (two separate unrelated PODs, but for the sake of argument call it one).
From that, we get the following massive changes that happen for absolutely no reason:
Anne's miscarriage streak is halted to give birth to two healthy heirs.
Maria Antonia gives birth to a healthy boy, then lives
Max Emanuel dies.
Eugene of Savoy catapults to top of military a decade early.
Carlos II dies a decade early.
Apparently, I'm the only one to have an issue with all that.
Now, let's examine the Bourbon deaths.
Le Grande Dauphin and his wife (who has, in this ATL, been changed) stop their carriage to talk to a priest (who they did not know - just a freak occurrence) who has just administered to a small pox victim. Wham, bam, the Dauphin is dead. The royal family (unchanged from OTL) contracts measles during travels associated with the funeral/mourning.
20 years of completely altered continental war, events, circumstances happen between initial POD and the Bourbon deaths. I'm 5 ft 2 in tall, 59 yr old, and have an amazing 5 inch vertical leap. I have as much chance of playing in the NBA and dunking a basketball as that sequence of events happening sans the appearance of alien space bats.
But y'all have a problem with me making changes for the sake of change. (edit - that should read y'all are charging me with making change for the sake of change. I charge y'all with keeping things the same just to keep them the same, for no other reason than convenience, against rational logic. This isn't a butterfly flapping a wing. It's a typhoon blowing through)
OK, then. Should I await the appearance of Napoleon III?
From that, we get the following massive changes that happen for absolutely no reason:
Anne's miscarriage streak is halted to give birth to two healthy heirs.
Maria Antonia gives birth to a healthy boy, then lives
Max Emanuel dies.
Eugene of Savoy catapults to top of military a decade early.
Carlos II dies a decade early.
Apparently, I'm the only one to have an issue with all that.
Now, let's examine the Bourbon deaths.
Le Grande Dauphin and his wife (who has, in this ATL, been changed) stop their carriage to talk to a priest (who they did not know - just a freak occurrence) who has just administered to a small pox victim. Wham, bam, the Dauphin is dead. The royal family (unchanged from OTL) contracts measles during travels associated with the funeral/mourning.
20 years of completely altered continental war, events, circumstances happen between initial POD and the Bourbon deaths. I'm 5 ft 2 in tall, 59 yr old, and have an amazing 5 inch vertical leap. I have as much chance of playing in the NBA and dunking a basketball as that sequence of events happening sans the appearance of alien space bats.
But y'all have a problem with me making changes for the sake of change. (edit - that should read y'all are charging me with making change for the sake of change. I charge y'all with keeping things the same just to keep them the same, for no other reason than convenience, against rational logic. This isn't a butterfly flapping a wing. It's a typhoon blowing through)
OK, then. Should I await the appearance of Napoleon III?
Last edited:
VVD0D95
Banned
So far in this TL, we have an initial POD of James II having the prescience to have full audience for the birth of James III followed up by James II death (two separate unrelated PODs, but for the sake of argument call it one).
From that, we get the following massive changes that happen for absolutely no reason:
Anne's miscarriage streak is halted to give birth to two healthy heirs.
Maria Antonia gives birth to a healthy boy, then lives
Max Emanuel dies.
Eugene of Savoy catapults to top of military a decade early.
Carlos II dies a decade early.
Apparently, I'm the only one to have an issue with all that.
Now, let's examine the Bourbon deaths.
Le Grande Dauphin and his wife (who has, in this ATL, been changed) stop their carriage to talk to a priest (who they did not know - just a freak occurrence) who has just administered to a small pox victim. Wham, bam, the Dauphin is dead. The royal family (unchanged from OTL) contracts measles during travels associated with the funeral/mourning.
20 years of completely altered continental war, events, circumstances happen between initial POD and the Bourbon deaths. I'm 5 ft 2 in tall, 59 yr old, and have an amazing 5 inch vertical leap. I have as much chance of playing in the NBA and dunking a basketball as that sequence of events happening sans the appearance of alien space bats.
But y'all have a problem with me making changes for the sake of change.
OK, then. Should I await the appearance of Napoleon III?
Lmao. Also the Dauphin's wife hasn't changed, but she did die in 1690 otl and the diseases which took her otl are still present here. Marie Louise would be the dauphin's second wife after all.
As to the other scenarios outlined, nothing is concrete just yet.
And as for Anne's miscarriage streak, chance more than anything plays a role in that. As it does for Maria Antonia who hasn't been run ragged trying to give birth to three kids over three years.
unprincipled peter
Donor
his second wife (the one in the carriage) is changed. OTL he had a morganatic marriage.
Also, while you were typing, I made a slight edit.
VVD0D95
Banned
Indeed it has, though whether there is in fact a meeting with a priest in a carriage hasn’t been confirmed yet by me, and nor has any of the other factors that were mentioned as possible scenarios.
Regarding Le Grande Dauphin, having him fall victim to something as "Son of the King, father of the King, never the King" being true would be IMO narratively better.
The only thing that really feels like "the name is inserted because the research was insufficient" was Eugene of Savoy (though to be frank, @VVD0D95 did fall to this thing quite often - it's just happened to some minor personalities, like giving 1740ies ranks to people in 1730ies for no good reason).
The only thing that really feels like "the name is inserted because the research was insufficient" was Eugene of Savoy (though to be frank, @VVD0D95 did fall to this thing quite often - it's just happened to some minor personalities, like giving 1740ies ranks to people in 1730ies for no good reason).
unprincipled peter
Donor
I didn't mean to include you in my outburst. You recognized the validity of my point early on.
I aimed my post at those who seemed to think it silly to think the Bourbon line of deaths are highly likely to be altered. Massive changes have consequences.
My opinion is that, having made massive changes, don't take the lazy route of having things remain the same. If you want to listen to those who would have a hurricane blow through, yet have the lawn ornaments remain in place while the house is leveled, have at it.
VVD0D95
Banned
Guilty.
I didn't mean to include you in my outburst. You recognized the validity of my point early on.
I aimed my post at those who seemed to think it silly to think the Bourbon line of deaths are highly likely to be altered. Massive changes have consequences.
My opinion is that, having made massive changes, don't take the lazy route of having things remain the same. If you want to listen to those who would have a hurricane blow through, yet have the lawn ornaments remain in place while the house is leveled, have at it.
No worries, and that's very true. I'm keeping my options open. I have always had a fancy for seeing a Philip VII of France just to break through the monotony of Louis's though.
Would be fun
And he is a known quality, as we know how he fared as ruler of Spain OTL.VVD0D95
Banned
Would be fun
This is very true. I do wonder whether Louis XIV would keep the marriage between Burgundy and Marie Adelaide though, especially if Savoy flips in this war, or the peace happens and he doesn't get what he wants.
At the very least there is no double Savoy marriage in case of Savoy changing sides or something like this. Realistic consequences should be realistic.