Future Emperor Joseph also is still free as he will be married only in 1699 in OTL so...
Maria Luisa made more sense as bride to be for Leopold Maximilian if France has no fully legitimate princess with the blood of Marie Therese for him
Maria Luisa made more sense as bride to be for Leopold Maximilian if France has no fully legitimate princess with the blood of Marie Therese for him
Age... Leopold is newborn, Luisa is the closest in age of the Savoy girl...
(Any wedding of the heir of Spain to a French girl would need to resolve and confirm once for all the question of Marie Therese renounce for being accepted by Antonia)
unprincipled peter
Donor
With the Habsburgs taking the reins, the French circle is diminished dramatically. I forget whether the Wittelsbach baby is living (edit: I see he is), but it doesn't really matter. Maria Antonia is a Habsburg, and her new husband is being chosen by the Habsburg Patriarch. The Austria/Habsburg party in Spain will be in complete control, with the French Queen widow being pushed into exile.
Louis is already involved, trying to take Italian lands from Spain.
At this point, the only way a French princess is going to Spain or anywhere near a Habsburg is by force of arms.
Austria is happily dreaming how they and Austrian dominated Spain are going to rule the continent. They are completely forgetting that France will crush them (and Savoy if necessary) militarily unless they get England/Dutch Republic in active combat. It won't be a short, sweet war like Louis envisioned, but it will end in French victory.
Louis is already involved, trying to take Italian lands from Spain.
At this point, the only way a French princess is going to Spain or anywhere near a Habsburg is by force of arms.
Austria is happily dreaming how they and Austrian dominated Spain are going to rule the continent. They are completely forgetting that France will crush them (and Savoy if necessary) militarily unless they get England/Dutch Republic in active combat. It won't be a short, sweet war like Louis envisioned, but it will end in French victory.
Not be so sure... France will not have Bavaria on his side (as their newborn elector is the only child of the new Spanish Queen), can easily lose Savoy and so will be likely totally alone...
Portugal is close to Austria and Spain right now.
Any French bride for the heir of Spain would comport the recognition of her family who they have no right to any part of the Spanish inheritance
Also Leopold I’s four younger daughters by Eleanor are on the right age for being taken in consideration as wives for Leopold Maximilian
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For me absolutely not as Austria will not be alone: Spain, Bavaria and likely Portugal, Palatinate, Poland and Netherlands will fight on the Austrian side
VVD0D95
Banned
Interesting would the Netherlands get involved If the Spanish Netherlands aren’t under threat?
Spanish Netherlands will be always under threat if Louis XIV is trying to get part of Spanish lands and they know it very well...
If they are not the main objective now they will become that after Louis has taken/renounced to his other priority and the Dutch know it very well and they do not care who held the Spanish Netherlands only if that is not Louis XIV or a member of his family
unprincipled peter
Donor
France didn't have Bavaria or Savoy on their side OTL 9YW.
It was basically France alone against the world, and France held their own.
Dutch Republic will not get involved if they are not directly threatened. They are deathly afraid of invasion, and will not openly declare war until France makes moves to invade. If France stays away from that region, they aren't going to invite trouble.
If you take England out of the picture, things go in France's favor.
OTL, France made a poor peace to curry favor with Charles II. That doesn't happen here.
The only way France loses is if everyone else uses new tactics, while they remain mired in the old ways. This is what happened in WoSS. These new tactics were learned from the lessons of 9YW. It's waving the magic wand to have these tactics just be gleaned out of thin air.
It was basically France alone against the world, and France held their own.
Dutch Republic will not get involved if they are not directly threatened. They are deathly afraid of invasion, and will not openly declare war until France makes moves to invade. If France stays away from that region, they aren't going to invite trouble.
If you take England out of the picture, things go in France's favor.
OTL, France made a poor peace to curry favor with Charles II. That doesn't happen here.
The only way France loses is if everyone else uses new tactics, while they remain mired in the old ways. This is what happened in WoSS. These new tactics were learned from the lessons of 9YW. It's waving the magic wand to have these tactics just be gleaned out of thin air.
unprincipled peter
Donor
in that case, it will be too late. They'd be entering after the war is lost.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Depends - ITTL Louis has already floated the idea of partitioning the Netherlands. With no one to stop him he doesn't need to bring this back to the table. If it looks like he's going to have to fight for them then it might be proposed again.
VVD0D95
Banned
Agreed though it would need something big like a few defeats for the imperial side for the Dutch and the English to get involved I think
unprincipled peter
Donor
delayed entry is good for France, or at least better than having to fight everyone all at once. Beat up one set of opponents, then beat up the other.
That's an argument for the Dutch, especially, to enter early, but they could fall prey to my earlier line of staying out and letting the empire do the fighting so as to avoid an invasion.
There's also the scenario that by the time France has won the war with the empire alliance, France will be war weary and settle for the gains made there, thus leaving the Netherlands alone.
I don't think any of the scenarios are crazy. I really think, though, that the alliance needs full English support (OTL, they were handicapped by having to fight to consolidate William and Mary's power usurpation) to win. OTL France took on all, and still came out ahead militarily, but gave up a lot looking ahead to the succession crisis.
That's an argument for the Dutch, especially, to enter early, but they could fall prey to my earlier line of staying out and letting the empire do the fighting so as to avoid an invasion.
There's also the scenario that by the time France has won the war with the empire alliance, France will be war weary and settle for the gains made there, thus leaving the Netherlands alone.
I don't think any of the scenarios are crazy. I really think, though, that the alliance needs full English support (OTL, they were handicapped by having to fight to consolidate William and Mary's power usurpation) to win. OTL France took on all, and still came out ahead militarily, but gave up a lot looking ahead to the succession crisis.
Chapter 22: Engagements
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 22: Engagements
August, 1690
August, 1690
As they walked through the gardens of the Hofburg, with the guards walking a few steps behind them, Maria Antonia, Queen of Spain chanced a look at the man who in two days time would be her husband. Jakub Sobieski, was taller than her, with long black hair, which curled in bits and pieces, and a slight scar across one eye, where a Turk had tried to stab him. He was handsome, not as handsome as Maximilian had been, but then looks did not bother her that much anymore, she wanted someone who would be kind to her and would be good to her son. Deciding to break the silence, Maria asked in German. “What are you making of Vienna so far, my Prince?”
Sobieski said nothing for a moment and then replied. “May I be honest with you, Your Majesty?”
“Please.” She said, she had had enough of fools and flatterers.
“I believe that Vienna has potential, but that it is being suffocated under some form of conservation that makes no sense. The people are thriving, but the development of the city’s art and its resources are not being used properly. I fear that the Emperor prefers to do things slowly, but perhaps too slowly for change to mean anything.” Sobieski said.
Maria Antonia thought on that, she remembered that when Maximilian had come to visit before their marriage, when she had been young and impressionable, he had charmed her with all sorts of nice words and phrases, and had been filled with all sorts of praise for Vienna. Though after they were married he had disdained of it. This was refreshing. “And what would you do to make it better?” She asked.
Here Sobieski seemed to consider his answer, another thing that Maximilian had never done. Her husband had always gone into the fray and acted first and thought later. Perhaps that was why he had died in Belgrade. Eventually after a lengthy pause, Sobieski spoke. “I would encourage artists and collectors to come and share their wares, not just with the Emperor but with the common man as well. I would ensure that fares were held throughout the summer season, and that ale was priced at half its usual rate.” Maria raised an eyebrow at that and Sobieski replied. “Men are more likely to act when they’ve had more ale than wine. It is a fact that any soldier could tell you.”
“And what if they cause disruption?” Maria asked, she knew that had been a great gripe for her father.
“Then you bring order through distraction.” Sobieski said. “A man is harassing a woman? You show him a card trick, or a sword and allow the woman to retreat. A man is drunk? Show him the plays of the wares. There are answers to everything.”
“I see.” Maria said, interesting answers that was for sure, but whether they would work here, she did not know.
“And what of you, Your Majesty?” Jakub asked her.
“What of me?” Maria asked in reply confused, when had Sobieski suddenly become Jakub?
“What would you do to improve Vienna?” he asked.
Maria laughed, it had been cleverly done. “I would allow more music and more fares, to bring about joy and reflection. But we are at war right now, therefore such things must wait.” A war in which her very right to the throne of Spain was being contested, if one believed her father. She was not sure if she did or not. Either way, she knew it would be a long time before she was free to go to Spain.
As if sensing she did not want to continue this topic, Jakub then said. “You know, we talk about all these sorts of things, but we’ve never met before today, so I think perhaps it would be best if we spoke about our interests, so that when the time comes we know where to go.”
That was completely different to Maximilian. The man had simply assumed the position and gone from there. Maria looked at Jakub and found him looking at her intently, she blushed slightly, then said. “Well,” she paused then, not sure whether to say her son was her main interest, as she knew her step-mother would say, or say something different. She loved her son with every fibre in her being, but he was not her only interest. Deciding that she was done lying to herself and to others, she finished her sentence. “I am interested mainly in history. Particularly the history of Spain and Portugal. Even though I never knew if I was to be Queen, I have always been drawn to the place.”
She expected Jakub to laugh at her, she knew Maximilian would have, but instead, he asked. “What about Spain is it that you like about the place? What is it about its history that fascinates you?”
“How it has changed and developed over time.” Maria said without needing to think. “It went from a collection of states into the most powerful Kingdom in the world within a matter of centuries. Of course it has fallen from grace since then, but the potential still remains.”
“And you believe it has that potential still?” Jakub asked.
“Yes, I do. What was once great can be made great once more with the right amount of nurturing and care.” Maria said. She felt herself blush then, but looked forward and asked. “What about you? What interests you?”
She expected something witty, that was what Maximilian would’ve done, but instead there was another long pause, and then Jakub replied. “I am a soldier, Your Majesty. I know the art of war, and nothing more. But, if you will allow me, I would like to know more about your interests and learn with you.”
Maria blushed even more, nobody had ever said something like that to her before, and secretly she wondered what game he was playing. They came back to the entrance to her chambers, and she turned and looked at Jakub, he looked sincere, there was no glint in his eye, only certainty. “Why?” She found herself asking. What she was asking she did not know.
Jakub replied instantly this time, though she did not think he was being insincere as he replied. “Your Majesty, I am not Maximilian Emmanuel, Elector of Bavaria I cannot charm you with flattery and nice words, nor am I Friedrich of Palatine to woo you with actions. I am who I am, and I will do my best to protect you and to ensure your interests and those of your son’s are protected and respected. That is what I can offer you, and I hope with time that will be enough.” With that he bowed and departed.
Maria Antonia watched him leave thoroughly confused as to what had just happened, and whether to be impressed or not. the doors were opened and she walked to her dresser where her ladies were waiting. “Well?!” Marie crowed. “How is he?”
“Different.” Maria replied, getting up and walking to where her son slept.
“Different how?” someone asked.
“I don’t know.” Maria replied. “But he’s different.”
Chapter 23: Argyll
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 23: Argyll
November, 1690
November, 1690
The war in Europe continued to rage. The Emperor and King Louis continued to fight one another backwards and forwards, neither side was quite able to break through the stalemate, and at one point it had seemed as though France would annex Catalonia for good, before troops from Portugal had ridden to Spain’s aid and prevented that from happening. James had watched it all with fascination, but right now he was in Scotland, in Edinburgh, Falkland Palace to be precise, the seat of government, to meet with Archibald Campbell, the rightful Earl of Argyll who was still asking after the return of all his father’s estates.
Campbell was a powerful man even as Lord Lorne and Lord Campbell he held influence on much of the west coast, and as the leading figure in western church matters in Scotland could shape the way the west coast went. Whether it would return to Presbyterianism as some might want, or stand firm in Episcopalians, rested on Campbell’s shoulders. From the slight rigidity in his shoulders, James could tell that the man knew this. Deciding he’d had enough of the silence, James spoke first. “We both know why you are here, my lord, let us not beat around the proverbial bush. How in your view might the west coast be kept within the true faith?” James had never converted to Catholicism unlike his brother, he had been raised an Episcopalian by their father and had remained so, even whilst ruling Scotland for King James II.
“You have two choices, the way I see it, my lord.” Campbell replied. “You can either approach them with the sword or with the pen.”
“The sword was used once before and has continued to produce outbreaks of tension.” James replied, indeed he had sent the Duke of Berwick northwards a few months ago with the Blues to deal with the matter. Berwick was returning to England and his wife on the morrow.
“Indeed, it has, but that was because you were lacking something.” Campbell said.
James knew what the man was referring to. “And you think you can make that difference?”
Campbell did not maintain the pretence to his credit. James had met the man’s father and knew that had he been having this conversation with that man, he would have done. No, it seemed Campbell was a straight talker. “Yes. I know these people, we are not from the same cloth as you lowlanders. Nor are we the same as the highlanders. We are in the middle. We speak the same language, of King, God and Religion. They see their King ordering some foreigner to crush them down and they will resent it. But if you allow me to speak with them, show them the errors of their ways, they will be more amenable to it.”
“Because you are one of them?” James asked, keeping the amusement from his voice. Argyll sounded like James’ own son, idealistic and filled with dreams.
“Yes. I can make them see sense through relating this religion to the old ways. To the struggle to keep the identity free from England. Or if you so desire it, I can show them that we have won.” Campbell said, a mischievous glint in his eye.
“Won?” James asked, though he suspected he knew what the other man meant.
“Yes, after all, Robert the Bruce’s descendant sits on the throne of England. Where once King Edward the Slaughterer sat, now sits a descendant of the Bruce. The people of the west helped Bruce defend Scotland, and now they can help ensure that his descendant continues to rule England and Ireland, and these entire islands for a long time to come.” Campbell said.
James thought on this, he had been considering a similar campaign once, before the King’s father had unfortunately died, but now he might just well go for it. “Go on.” He said.
“Allow me the chance to use my people, spread songs and stories about how the King is the Bruce come again, how he will not ignore Scotland, how he will make Scotland great, and how England and Ireland will work together with Scotland for the greater Albion that King Robert once promised. Allow me to do that, and these people will follow Episcopalianism to the end.” Campbell said.
James saw the sense in what the other man was saying, but he was not naïve enough to believe that he would do it without a price. “And what would you want in return?” He asked instead.
“Allow the King to restore my estates to me. The full titles. I am the Marquess of Argyll, not a mere Earl. Restore the estates and titles to me, and the west will be loyal until the end of days.” Campbell replied.
James considered this, he knew Princess Anne would need to be the final authority on this, and she had mixed feelings about Campbell, indeed he distinctly remembered her calling him an ingrate when she learned he had almost supported Monmouth during his rebellion. Still, the opportunity that he presented was too good to let up. So, with great consideration, James said. “I shall write to the King.”
Campbell smiled. “Excellent, I shall write to my people and get them to focus on the stories and songs for now.”
“Very well.” James said. Campbell rose, bowed and then walked out of the room. A moment later, another figure walked into the room.
“So?” James asked.
“He speaks truly, Sir. I think it could well work.” Lewis Gordon, cousin to the Duke of Gordon said.
“Very well, begin the preparations.” James commanded.
“Yes, Sir.” Gordon replied before bowing and departing.
Chapter 24: Sunderland
VVD0D95
Banned
Chapter 24: Sunderland
January, 1691
January, 1691
“I trust you are well enough?” The Princess asked. Her expression was one Robert had seen often enough on her father to suspect that she was not just asking after his physical health.
“As well as can be, Your Highness, thank you.” Robert replied.
The Princess nodded and then turned the conversation to another topic. “The war between the Emperor and France continues. However, recent reports as you are aware suggest that the French might be about to break through on the Rhine. It seems that the Duke of Lorraine’s death has greatly hampered the imperial war effort. This is greatly concerning.”
The Princess finished and Robert took up the conversation from there. “I agree that it is concerning, Your Highness. However, I do not think it warrants our armed involvement. At the moment, the French might be breaking through on the Rhine, but with the aid of the Portuguese the Spanish have driven them out of Catalonia for now. As for Italy, the French and Savoyard armies are being defeated with regularity and have not yet broached Milan.”
The Princess nodded. “This is true; however, the French are not likely to let go of anything just yet. They will return to Catalonia in due course, and this time the Portuguese won’t be there to aid Spain. Which leads me back to my initial query, what should we do?”
Robert thought on this. He could see where the Princess was coming from. In all his years serving her father and her uncle, he had dealt with the French often enough to know that King Louis was stubborn, convinced in his own rightness, and unlikely to ever accept a peace that would not benefit him. But he also knew that it was not to their benefit to engage in this war now. “The Spanish Netherlands are not under threat as of now, Your Highness. Whether that remains true in the long term, it remains true now. Therefore, we must consider that. I would recommend placing Lord Churchill on alert, and tell him to move his regiments southwards toward the border between the Republic and the Empire. that way they can engage in direct conflict if the need arises.”
“A wise choice.” The Princess said nodding along. “And of course it would make the Prince of Orange feel easier as well.”
Robert said nothing to that, he did not know where things stood between the Princess and her brother by marriage. Eventually, when it became clear that the Princess was expecting him to respond, he said. “Of course, Your Highness.”
The Princess nodded again, and then asked. “And your family? How are they?”
The change in topic would have thrown a lesser man, but Robert had been dealing with the Stuarts for years. He knew their minds sometimes wandered. “Robert is doing well enough, though I fear that whatever it was that caught him in Paris still affects him. Elizabeth and her husband have finally consummated their marriage, and Charles remains relatively quiet, though I think he will soon need to venture to Oxford.”
“A clever one, is he?” Anne asked referring to the son named after the King.
“Yes, quite clever. I think he would do better as Earl than Robert.” Robert said referring to his oldest son and namesake.
“And why do you believe that?” the Princess asked.
“Robert has the mould of a soldier; he thinks like one as well. Everything is about seeing someone as either an ally or an enemy. Charles sees the world for how it is, in shades of grey mixed together in one fascinating colour combination. Robert would do well in the army, whilst Charles would do well at court. But their birth order dictates it go the other way.” Robert said.
“Not necessarily.” The Princess said.
“Your Highness?” Robert asked intrigued.
“If you believe Robert is a soldier, then send him to one of the regiments stationed near your estates, allow him to get some training and see how he does. If you think Charles would do well at court, I will invite him to court to serve under my husband the Duke of Cumberland.” The Princes said.
Robert considered that, it would make sense and he did wonder why he’d not thought on that before. “I will do so, thank you, Your Highness.”
“Think nothing of it, Robert.” The Princess replied. “We must make the best use of the people we have.”
Robert nodded, he knew the Princess was trying to improve the quality of England, and so he would comply with this suggestion? But then there was another issue he wished to discuss before he retired back to his manor for the night. “Your Highness, if I may, might I give my thoughts on the campaign being waged in Scotland?”
The Princess looked at him, took a sip of her wine and then replied. “Go forward.”
Encouraged by this, Robert said. “Whilst I understand why the campaign has come about, I do think it is risky to give that much power to Lord Campbell. The man and his family have always been ambitious. He might say all the right things now, but there will come a time when he will try to do something that takes the momentum and the imagery away from the crown and toward himself.”
“You think he is being insincere?” The Princess asked.
“I do not think he is being insincere, just yet, Your Highness. However, I do think that he is doing all of this to ensure he gets some power. His father and grandfather both played dangerous games and lost. Campbell is also playing a dangerous game, but he has couched it in the terms of appealing to bringing peace to Western Scotland.” Robert answered.
“SO, what would you suggest I do?” The Princess asked.
“I would suggest you wait and see how this campaign of this goes. If by the summer session of Parliament, the west has quietened down, then you restore his titles to him. If it has not, you do not.” Robert said.
The Princess did not immediately respond, instead she simply took a sip of wine, and then it seemed when she had had enough she nodded. “You may go.” Robert rose, kissed the Princess’s outstretched hand, bowed, straightened and then turned and walked out.
As he nodded to the guards outside the room, he continued his walk. The hallways had people milling about, various attendants, lords and ladies, and some members of the Commons also, had gathered in Whitehall, in the attempt to outdo Versailles in its grandeur. If he were being frank, Robert found the whole thing slightly confusing. They were not French, but nor were they Puritans, and it seemed the longer Whitehall existed, the more French they were becoming.
He walked out of the main palace section, and out into the courtyard beyond. He nodded to the guards who opened the gate for him, allowing him to walk out. When he had been a younger man, he had stayed at court, engaging in all sorts of things. But now he was older, and he would like to think wiser. The time had come for him to retire soon. Robert, his eldest son and Charles would take the reins of power soon enough. He felt someone bump into him as he got onto Parliament street. “Apologies.” He said, the figure did not respond, instead they kept on walking.
How very odd. Robert thought to himself, though he did not dwell on it. His manor was only a few more paces away, and then he could settle down and engage in some reading. A figure dressed in deep brown came to him then. “Excuse me, Sir, might I stop you for a moment?”
Robert would usually ignore such people, but tonight he stopped. “Certainly. What seems to be the matter?” He asked.
The figure did not respond immediately, but instead, seemed to be searching for something. Just as Robert’s patience began to wear thin, the figure produced something and leaned forward. Robert felt a prick and then looked down and saw blood trickling out onto his clothes. He looked at the figure who simply replied. “Sorry, Sir, but it had to be done.” The figure shoved the thing into him further before walking away.
Robert felt it, he tried to call out, but nothing came. Instead he slumped to the floor and lay there, mere feet from his manor. He couldn’t move even if he wanted to.