An Unexpected Prince

Well it looks like the 'English Deal' is off the table, Queen Marianne won't agree to losing the Spanish Netherlands, Louis XIV has made it clear that even if he can't get his son on the Spanish throne he won't tolerate further Spanish control over the region.

This war is about to get MUCH uglier.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Well it looks like the 'English Deal' is off the table, Queen Marianne won't agree to losing the Spanish Netherlands, Louis XIV has made it clear that even if he can't get his son on the Spanish throne he won't tolerate further Spanish control over the region.

This war is about to get MUCH uglier.
Yes yes it is
 
Chapter 20: March To War

VVD0D95

Banned
Chapter 20: March To War



April, 1690


“Our cousin Louis continues to refuse any sort of negotiation or compromise regarding Spain and the inheritance.” Leopold said reading the letter that his sister Marianna had sent him. “He demands the Spanish Netherlands in return for recognising the claim of our daughter to the throne of Spain, and in recompense for the non-payment of the dowry for his wife.” Leopold had to admit Louis was bold and daring, if not the brightest spark, he knew what he was doing. “Naturally, our sister the Queen Dowager and regent has refused, saying that the Spanish Empire will go to our daughter and nothing less. However, this has led to Louis mobilising troops.” He finished there, placing the letter to one side.

The Prince of Salm spoke then. “The answer is a simple one, Sire. We must fight France in the field of battle and we must beat them completely.”

“We are aware, the question is where.” Leopold responded. “Our sister writes that they are marshalling forces to invade Spanish Navarre, that they are trying to instigate rebellion in Catalonia. We know they are trying to send ships into Naples and Sicily, and are moving into Philipsburg once more to strengthen their position. That is three fronts we need to be concerned about.”

Salm said something Leopold had not expected then. “Naples and Sicily should not be our concern, Sire. Milan protects the integrity of the Empire, therefore that must be our primary concern in Italy. As must the Rhine. If necessary then we can try to send aid to the Spanish Netherlands, though with the recent striking of alliances with the Dutch Republic and England, I do not think that will be necessary.”

“And there is the fact that the French King has won the Duke of Savoy over to his cause through arranging the marriage of his grandson with Savoy’s daughter.” Charles Henri said. “Which means that Savoy will have French support in their attempts to gain Milan.”

Leopold wanted to sigh, but instead he forced that down. “Very well. We shall direct Eugene to marshal his forces and ride with haste toward Milan. We cannot afford it falling into French or Savoyard hands.”

Salm nodded and made a note of that. “Perhaps the Margrave of Baden can push forward from his position in Cologne, Sire?”

“Yes. We want Philipsburg in our hands and then we shall march from there onto Luxembourg.” Leopold said. “Tell Lorraine that we want him aiding Baden as much as possible.” Leopold personally thought that Lorraine was the superior commander, but he was also wary of giving the man too much power.

“Of course, Sire.” Salm said. The man made another note and then he asked. “What of the Spanish Netherlands? Will we leave it to the English and the Dutch to take control of the fighting in that area?”

Leopold shook his head. “No, we all know that the English will try and propose their ridiculous plan again if they get the chance. Instead we shall allow them some early chances to engage there, then when the chance comes we shall divert Lorraine to that field of combat.”

Salm made a note of that, and Ferdinand his finance minister said. “We will need to raise taxes then Sire. And we will need to get the Imperial Princes to agree as well.”

Leopold hesitated then, he knew that this matter might be regarded as a simple Austria against France matter, but he also knew that if France succeeded here, then the Empire’s integrity was in danger and that was something that nobody could stomach. “That man Swift still here?” A young man from England named Jonathan Swift had found his way to Vienna, talking about how he was great at writing things that would make people believe anything. Leopold had been intrigued by him.

“He is, Sire.” Ferdinand said.

“Pay him a fee and tell him he is to write a pamphlet that can be distributed easily, that will convince the people of the need for this war.” Leopold said.

“The people? Not the Electors, Sire?” Ferdinand asked.

“The Electors and the Princes will get their act together if the people are demanding action.” Leopold replied.

“Very well, Sire.” Ferdinand responded.

Leopold then turned to another matter that had been pressing at him. “Now with this war escalating, we shall need to sort out our daughter’s marriage.” He knew that technically as Queen of Spain his daughter could arrange her own marriage, but she was under his roof and his protection, therefore he would do it.

“Sobieski must be the one considered, Sire. He has French leanings, but if his son is married to Her Royal Highness then he will be more inclined to siding with you.” Salm said.

“Even if his grandchildren are not directly in line to the throne?” Leopold asked, unsure. He did not want to give Sobieski that much power.

“I believe so.” Salm said. “He will do whatever it takes to secure that inheritance, and with the issue of Bavaria still pressing well, who knows what you might be able to dangle in front of him.”

“Salm is right, Sire.” Charles Henri said. “Sobieski is not foolish, if his son is married to Her Royal Highness, he will have royal grandchildren, something he has long craved. Furthermore, Bavaria remains an issue.”

Leopold thought on that, he did not want to deny his grandson Leopold anything, but at the same time he knew that it was a possibility. Therefore, with great reluctance he said. “Very well, send word to Sobieski, tell him we shall confirm this marriage.” He would deal with his daughter himself.
 
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What are the Dutch and English war aims?

Louis doesn't want all of Spain - he was prepared to settle for significant parts of the empire in the Netherlands, the Rhine and potentially Italy.

England would have settled for partition of Netherlands - we don't know what William's opinion was.

Austria seems to be trying to whip up German nationalism, always a difficult horse to ride. Joseph Addison must be an enfant terrible as he is writing propaganda for the Emperor before he has even left university (he's only 18?!)

What does an Austrian win look like? Are they looking for any territorial readjustments?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
What are the Dutch and English war aims?

Louis doesn't want all of Spain - he was prepared to settle for significant parts of the empire in the Netherlands, the Rhine and potentially Italy.

England would have settled for partition of Netherlands - we don't know what William's opinion was.

Austria seems to be trying to whip up German nationalism, always a difficult horse to ride. Joseph Addison must be an enfant terrible as he is writing propaganda for the Emperor before he has even left university (he's only 18?!)

What does an Austrian win look like? Are they looking for any territorial readjustments?

Have edited it so that it's now changed to Jonathan Swift, you're right Addison being there makes no sense aha
 
Swift will probably graduate his masters from Trinity in 1688-9 absent any Williamite war. His mother will still have contacts with Sir William Temple who might accept an appointment in the new government this time line. So maybe he is caught up in some of the mediation negotiations in 1689 and came to Leopolds attention in that way?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Swift will probably graduate his masters from Trinity in 1688-9 absent any Williamite war. His mother will still have contacts with Sir William Temple who might accept an appointment in the new government this time line. So maybe he is caught up in some of the mediation negotiations in 1689 and came to Leopolds attention in that way?

Agreed that was my thought process
 
France should find it very easy to stir up trouble in Catalonia. OTL, there was an uprising within a year or so of this POD (just prior, I think) which had been put down,, but the place was a powder keg. Some think France could have taken the whole region with a little more initiative.

Without reading through all this again, when/why is England joining the war?

Savoy was virulently anti French at the time. Granted, Milan is a nice prize, but it seems awfully quick to take it for granted Savoy is going to be a foe. With the war a very even balance, any switching of sides could easily tip the scales.

Have partition talks even occurred, yet? Seems to talking about them past tense here. My understanding is that worry about the succession didn't pick up steam til mid '90s. Why does Savoy think it is getting a chunk?

Also, is this Eugene of Savoy being referenced to marshal forces? if so, he's still a footnote in history at this point. he didn't rise to prominence til much later in the decade, and is currently just an unknown underling.
 
France should find it very easy to stir up trouble in Catalonia. OTL, there was an uprising within a year or so of this POD (just prior, I think) which had been put down,, but the place was a powder keg. Some think France could have taken the whole region with a little more initiative.

Without reading through all this again, when/why is England joining the war?

Savoy was virulently anti French at the time. Granted, Milan is a nice prize, but it seems awfully quick to take it for granted Savoy is going to be a foe. With the war a very even balance, any switching of sides could easily tip the scales.

Have partition talks even occurred, yet? Seems to talking about them past tense here. My understanding is that worry about the succession didn't pick up steam til mid '90s. Why does Savoy think it is getting a chunk?

Also, is this Eugene of Savoy being referenced to marshal forces? if so, he's still a footnote in history at this point. he didn't rise to prominence til much later in the decade, and is currently just an unknown underling.
Eugene may have dodged his bullet in Belgrade and it may have found Maximillian instead. In which case he is likely to be the rising star much earlier in the Imperial armies.

I'm confused about Savoy's volte-face too. I understand the reason (French marriage) but to side so decisively with the french is a big change. And one that will impact Eugene as well.

As I asked earlier, it's unclear to me how England / Netherlands and the Imperial / Spanish war aim coincide. if anything grabbing the popcorn and watching the French and Imperial armies knock themselves out is a better policy than immediate intervention on the Imperial side. If Louis threatens the Spanish Netherlands then they may intervene - although both may indulge in a bit of French privateering.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
France should find it very easy to stir up trouble in Catalonia. OTL, there was an uprising within a year or so of this POD (just prior, I think) which had been put down,, but the place was a powder keg. Some think France could have taken the whole region with a little more initiative.

Without reading through all this again, when/why is England joining the war?

Savoy was virulently anti French at the time. Granted, Milan is a nice prize, but it seems awfully quick to take it for granted Savoy is going to be a foe. With the war a very even balance, any switching of sides could easily tip the scales.

Have partition talks even occurred, yet? Seems to talking about them past tense here. My understanding is that worry about the succession didn't pick up steam til mid '90s. Why does Savoy think it is getting a chunk?

Also, is this Eugene of Savoy being referenced to marshal forces? if so, he's still a footnote in history at this point. he didn't rise to prominence til much later in the decade, and is currently just an unknown underling.

Agreed with you there re Catalonia.

It is my understanding that England originally joined the War of Spanish Succession to protect their commercial interests in the Spanish Netherlands, hence why they're getting involved here ttl.

And agreed Savoy was anti French, and I think it's more of a misleading statement from Leopold's advisors to suggest they're automatically going to side with France.

Briefly they were mentioned, but Louis's belligerence re the Spanish Netherlands have sort of put paid to that.

And it is indeed, as @Derek Pullem states, the earlier death of Maximilian at Belgrade has meant Eugene is getting more involved.

Eugene may have dodged his bullet in Belgrade and it may have found Maximillian instead. In which case he is likely to be the rising star much earlier in the Imperial armies.

I'm confused about Savoy's volte-face too. I understand the reason (French marriage) but to side so decisively with the french is a big change. And one that will impact Eugene as well.

As I asked earlier, it's unclear to me how England / Netherlands and the Imperial / Spanish war aim coincide. if anything grabbing the popcorn and watching the French and Imperial armies knock themselves out is a better policy than immediate intervention on the Imperial side. If Louis threatens the Spanish Netherlands then they may intervene - although both may indulge in a bit of French privateering.

You're bang on about Eugene.

Savoy, I'm open to suggestions about.

I was thinking that Louis so concisely demanding the Spanish Netherlands would've got alarm bells ringing in both the Hague and London, as they've got commericla interests there.
 
Savoy, I'm open to suggestions about.

I was thinking that Louis so concisely demanding the Spanish Netherlands would've got alarm bells ringing in both the Hague and London, as they've got commericla interests there.

Reading the background to Victor Amadeus II he hadn't managed to extricate his troops from French service IOTL at the start of the Nine Years War so he's likely to be a co-beligerent with France at the start. But as IOTL he'll be more than willing to do a deal with whichever side offers the most.

I think you are mostly right about London and the Hague, although I'm not sure they will be overly committed to the war unless / until it looks like Louis is winning.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Reading the background to Victor Amadeus II he hadn't managed to extricate his troops from French service IOTL at the start of the Nine Years War so he's likely to be a co-beligerent with France at the start. But as IOTL he'll be more than willing to do a deal with whichever side offers the most.

I think you are mostly right about London and the Hague, although I'm not sure they will be overly committed to the war unless / until it looks like Louis is winning.

Alrighty, cheers :) I reckon as well that the marriage of his daughter to Louis' grandson will be something he'll look forward to.

And alrighty, agreed there. I think they'll probably do some garrison duty in the Spanish Netherlands and then go from there.
 
It is my understanding that England originally joined the War of Spanish Succession to protect their commercial interests in the Spanish Netherlands, hence why they're getting involved here ttl.
it's semi-plausible, so sure, I'll buy it. A HUGE reason England entered the war, OTL, is that William dragged them into it. William is butterflied here. Likewise, Dutch Republic seems to have formally entered the fray with England, with the rule of William binding them at the hip.

I like the TL, but it seems you're mish-moshing OTL WoSS with 9YW, and treading dangerously close to Turtlebaum territory, where major PODs don't butterfly events/persons, or similar/identical events happen. I'm going to boo the Eugene move. And, I'm not a fan of having too many unrelated PODs (why does James II being crushed by a horse cause Charles II to die, or Max-E to step in front of a bullet?), so add another boo there. Otherwise, keep up the good work.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
it's semi-plausible, so sure, I'll buy it. A HUGE reason England entered the war, OTL, is that William dragged them into it. William is butterflied here. Likewise, Dutch Republic seems to have formally entered the fray with England, with the rule of William binding them at the hip.

I like the TL, but it seems you're mish-moshing OTL WoSS with 9YW, and treading dangerously close to Turtlebaum territory, where major PODs don't butterfly events/persons, or similar/identical events happen. I'm going to boo the Eugene move. And, I'm not a fan of having too many unrelated PODs (why does James II being crushed by a horse cause Charles II to die, or Max-E to step in front of a bullet?), so add another boo there. Otherwise, keep up the good work.

Alright interesting, I don't think it's too out of the realm of possibility for England and the Dutch to station men in the Spanish Netherlands to just be on the safe side no?

Ah fair enough, my reasoning for Max being killed during the storming of Belgrade was simple, it was something I'd wanted to explore and felt it fit the theme of unexpected princes coming into play here.
 
Alright interesting, I don't think it's too out of the realm of possibility for England and the Dutch to station men in the Spanish Netherlands to just be on the safe side no?
doubtfull.
Prior to C II dying, it's an act of war.
Post C II dying, Austria may see it as an act of war because England has been trying to divvy up Spain's empire could be trying to take it for said purpose. If they are there with Austrian blessing, France will see it as an act of war.
Somebody isn't going to take it as a safe act. It's like rushing your troops to the border in the middle of a crisis. It usually doesn't go over well. How did it go over when France did it in OTL WoSS?
 

VVD0D95

Banned
doubtfull.
Prior to C II dying, it's an act of war.
Post C II dying, Austria may see it as an act of war because England has been trying to divvy up Spain's empire could be trying to take it for said purpose. If they are there with Austrian blessing, France will see it as an act of war.
Somebody isn't going to take it as a safe act. It's like rushing your troops to the border in the middle of a crisis. It usually doesn't go over well. How did it go over when France did it in OTL WoSS?
That’s very true
 
doubtfull.
Prior to C II dying, it's an act of war.
Post C II dying, Austria may see it as an act of war because England has been trying to divvy up Spain's empire could be trying to take it for said purpose. If they are there with Austrian blessing, France will see it as an act of war.
Somebody isn't going to take it as a safe act. It's like rushing your troops to the border in the middle of a crisis. It usually doesn't go over well. How did it go over when France did it in OTL WoSS?
I read the last post as implying that the Empire had at least a tacit understanding with the English and the Dutch, if not an alliance, that they would resist any move into the Spanish Netherlands by the French. I imagine though the putative peace talks over partition of the Netherlands has been leaked to Spain by France so there may be a large amount of distrust between Spain and its erstwhile allies when it comes to the Spanish Netherlands. Of course English and Dutch troops could be hired by the Spanish..............
 

VVD0D95

Banned
I read the last post as implying that the Empire had at least a tacit understanding with the English and the Dutch, if not an alliance, that they would resist any move into the Spanish Netherlands by the French. I imagine though the putative peace talks over partition of the Netherlands has been leaked to Spain by France so there may be a large amount of distrust between Spain and its erstwhile allies when it comes to the Spanish Netherlands. Of course English and Dutch troops could be hired by the Spanish..............

Also true
 
I like the TL, but it seems you're mish-moshing OTL WoSS with 9YW, and treading dangerously close to Turtlebaum territory, where major PODs don't butterfly events/persons, or similar/identical events happen. I'm going to boo the Eugene move. And, I'm not a fan of having too many unrelated PODs (why does James II being crushed by a horse cause Charles II to die, or Max-E to step in front of a bullet?), so add another boo there. Otherwise, keep up the good work.
I showed (well, explained and showed from the tablet during a walk in a park) this TL to my friend.
She said that TTL cryptohistorians would invent an Illuminati plot or some such to explain no less than 4 major European rulers dying within less than decade from random reasons (from horse accident to food poisoning to boat crash (though said boat crash so far exists only in discussion on page 6 as to where to crash the boat).

Though this is perfectly explained by the author writing a TL on similar period and wanting for the two not to end in the same place come 1740ies.
Also, could you explain "Turtlebaum" term to me?
 
I showed (well, explained and showed from the tablet during a walk in a park) this TL to my friend.
She said that TTL cryptohistorians would invent an Illuminati plot or some such to explain no less than 4 major European rulers dying within less than decade from random reasons (from horse accident to food poisoning to boat crash (though said boat crash so far exists only in discussion on page 6 as to where to crash the boat).

Though this is perfectly explained by the author writing a TL on similar period and wanting for the two not to end in the same place come 1740ies.
Also, could you explain "Turtlebaum" term to me?
This is alt history, so as long as there's a semblance of plausibility, it can be possible. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Who would have thought le Grand Dauphin would stop his carriage to talk to a completely unknown priest who had just been ministering a small pox victim, followed up by a measles outbreak killing le Petit Dauphin, and the infant next in line, followed by the Duke of Berry being crushed by a horse?
I'm a fan of posing a single what if, and then exploring where it leads.If you want to kill off Max E, it is acceptable to surmise that with an altered war, a battle goes differently, and Max steps in front of a bullet. But here, for no apparent reason, he listens to Eugene, is killed, while Eugene goes from unknown to head of the army. It's a separate WI (listening to Eugene), as is Charles II dying. It's only my personal opinion that having too many separate PODs is wrong. It isn't wrong, except in my head. It can make for an interesting story, though.

Turtlebaum is good at writing alternate history, but he likes to recreate OTL scenarios but just change the names, or having people/groups react the same, even though circumstances change. For instance, in one book, the US south succeeds at seceding, then becomes an exact duplicate of Nazi Germany. WWI trench warfare is recreated in the US verbatim. Historical figures show up long after the POD with the same personality, even though the circumstances of the parents meeting and raising offspring should be butterflied (like Napoleon showing up, still taking power, 100 yrs after a world changing POD). In my opinion, he's a good writer, but a hack at alt history. Bubblegum for the masses.
 
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