An Unexpected Prince

[Valena]

Turtlebaum is good at writing alternate history, but he likes to recreate OTL scenarios but just change the names, or having people/groups react the same, even though circumstances change. For instance, in one book, the US south succeeds at seceding, then becomes an exact duplicate of Nazi Germany. WWI trench warfare is recreated in the US verbatim. Historical figures show up long after the POD with the same personality, even though the circumstances of the parents meeting and raising offspring should be butterflied (like Napoleon showing up, still taking power, 100 yrs after a world changing POD). In my opinion, he's a good writer, but a hack at alt history. Bubblegum for the masses.

Sometimes a long-lasting TLs run into this - I've read one with PoD in late 1480ies, which by 1620 has Cardinal Richelieu at the rise in French court (though for the TL's sake, this court is different from OTL in the fact that Henri IV was never assassinated TTL; a compensation for keeping 1500ies in France mostly OTL including Henri II death and Bourbon succession (the author later on recognized that it was "cheating", but still...).

 

[VVD0D95]

This is alt history, so as long as there's a semblance of plausibility, it can be possible. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Who would have thought le Grand Dauphin would stop his carriage to talk to a completely unknown priest who had just been ministering a small pox victim, followed up by a measles outbreak killing le Petit Dauphin, and the infant next in line, followed by the Duke of Berry being crushed by a horse?
I'm a fan of posing a single what if, and then exploring where it leads.If you want to kill off Max E, it is acceptable to surmise that with an altered war, a battle goes differently, and Max steps in front of a bullet. But here, for no apparent reason, he listens to Eugene, is killed, while Eugene goes from unknown to head of the army. It's a separate WI (listening to Eugene), as is Charles II dying. It's only my personal opinion that having too many separate PODs is wrong. It isn't wrong, except in my head. It can make for an interesting story, though.

Turtlebaum is good at writing alternate history, but he likes to recreate OTL scenarios but just change the names, or having people/groups react the same, even though circumstances change. For instance, in one book, the US south succeeds at seceding, then becomes an exact duplicate of Nazi Germany. WWI trench warfare is recreated in the US verbatim. Historical figures show up long after the POD with the same personality, even though the circumstances of the parents meeting and raising offspring should be butterflied (like Napoleon showing up, still taking power, 100 yrs after a world changing POD). In my opinion, he's a good writer, but a hack at alt history. Bubblegum for the masses.

Interesting, do you think this timeline is at risk of that?

 

[VVD0D95]

Chapter 21: Parliament



June, 1690
​

Henry Powle, speaker of the House of Commons spoke. “Order, gentlemen, order.” The house fell quiet, Sidney listened intently. “We have the Right Honourable Sidney Godolphin, First Lord of the Treasury to the government of His Majesty King James, here to speak on matters relating to war against France. Sir Sidney.”

Sidney stood up then. “Thank you, Mr Speaker. As regards the matter of war with France, I wish to clarify the government’s position. After much consideration and debate, the regency council decided that it was not appropriate at this time for us to engage troops in the matter. Instead we are through the Bank of Albion going to be providing funding for the Imperial army in its struggle against the French. We shall also be undergoing some privateering against the French. To that extent the Lord High Admiral has commissioned several unmarked ships to begin pursuing French ships.”

There was a general clamour from the opposition benches, whilst the Tories behind him smiled and cheered. “Leader of the Opposition Sir Thomas Wharton.” The speaker called out.

“Thank you, Mr Speaker.” That rogue Wharton said, his face was puffed up, he looked as if he’d just finished a drinking session, given his history, Sidney would not be surprised if that was true. “The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite me says that the government and therefore the country shall not be engaging in war with France directly, and instead shall be financing the Imperial Army. Does he not find that to be a lapsing in his duty and the country’s duty to its allies? After all, this house saw the treaty which brought us into alliance with the Dutch and the Emperor. Why then are we not committed to fighting?”

Sidney stood up again and at a nod from the Speaker, he replied. “The Honourable Gentleman knows as well as the rest of this house that the treaty which brought us into alliance was purely a financial one. In it, we agreed to clearly fund the Imperial army in its activities in whatever necessary need they had. It needed simple clarification from the Emperor, now that that clarification has been provided, we are moving forward.” He sat down then.

“That does not answer the question.” Wharton fired back. “We are none the wiser as to why we are not engaging in war, now that we know what King Louis wants. That being the Spanish Netherlands, a thing that we need for trade ourselves. Not to mention the fact that his actions have prevented the rightful sovereign of Spain from taking the throne.” There was a loud cheer there from the opposition benches.

Sidney rose. “The gentleman will note that though King Louis has previously stated that he wants the Spanish Netherlands, his entire action has been dedicated toward fighting in the Rhine and in Italy, alongside Catalonia. He has not even sent an expeditionary force into the Spanish Netherlands.”

“And do you believe that will remain the case?” Wharton fired back. “Because if you do, you are naïve!” To a cry from both sides.

“Order!” Powle shouted. “There will be order in the house.”

Eventually the house quietened, and Powle looked at Sidney gesturing for him to respond. Sidney stood, cleared his throat and then said. “The gentleman is right to say that if one were to expect King Louis of France not to engage in an eventual invasion of the Spanish Netherlands he would be a fool. However, that is not what I said. I said that he has as of yet not sent one such force into the Spanish Netherlands, therefore we are not going to be sending our own men into the area. Should he do something such as this he will be met by be the full might of English, Scottish and Irish forces.” He was about to sit down when he decided to add. “And Lord Churchill has taken five regiments with him to the Dutch Republic to embark on a training exercise, on the agreement of Her Highness the Duchess of Cumberland and William, Prince of Orange.”

That caused a stir. “SO, there will be troops stationed not a hairs breath away from the Spanish Netherlands but not engaging in war?” Wharton demanded. “What sort of sense is this?”

“The sort of sense that one who is in government would have.” Sir William Temple, a commissioner of the treasury and a candidate for Secretary of State said. His voice drew silence from the Commons that was how well respected he was.

“Sir William.” The Speaker said.

The man stood up. The hush around the Commons was an indication of the great respect he was held in. “Thank you Mr Speaker.” Sir William said, he then looked around the room. “Yes, we are in alliance with the Empire, and no we are not going to be sending troops to fight in the Empire or in Italy. However, we are doing what we can to stand against the French, and until they give us a direct reference for needing to fight them and defeat them, this will remain the case.” There were murmurs of approval. Sir William continued. “Now, if the Right Honourable Gentleman wants to fight, then he can join one of the regiments and lead it into Imperial service. If not, then he had best trust that the government knows what it is doing.”

There was a roar of approval from the government benches, and Sidney shook Sir William’s hand, as the Speaker began trying to call for order, Sidney said. “Thank you, Sir.”

Sir William shook his head. “I merely said what you already had, but in a language that Wharton could understand.”

“Still, that was quite something.” Sidney said.

“Parliament is adjourned for the afternoon.” The Speaker said then. “Go and get whatever food you need, but return promptly by the first tolling of the bell.”

Sidney rose with the rest of the house and walked out of the chamber, making his way to where the servers were. Sir William walked with him. “Sunderland will resign.” Sir William said.

Sidney looked at the man and asked. “How do you know?”

Sir William looked at him, before this debate had been called, Robert Spencer, Earl of Sunderland had said something about wanting to spend more time on his estates to raise his surviving children. The Princess hadn’t said anything about it at the time, but Sidney got the feeling she wasn’t very happy about it. Sunderland had done a lot of things to keep the regency council balanced, if he went who would replace him? “Robert and I speak. He wants to leave, and I believe he has met with the Princess.”

“Ah.” Sidney said, he knew then that Robert Spencer would no doubt have played on the Princess’ motherly instinct. “So, who shall replace him?”

“I was thinking of putting your name forward for the post.” Sir William replied.

“Me?” Sidney exclaimed. “I am not experienced enough.”

“On the contrary, you have the experience needed to woo the Princess to your way of thinking, and your command of the Commons is second to none. Better than anyone I’ve seen in my time in office.” Sir William said.

Coming from him that was very high praise. Sidney thought on it as he purchased one of these new things that the Earl of Sandwich had coined after himself and some ale. He took a bite and a swig and then replied. “Well, thank you very much for the suggestion, Sir.”

“Don’t thank me yet. We have much to do.” Sir William said.

Sidney looked at him and then at Sir Thomas who was swigging ale as if it were going out of style and said. “Indeed we do.”

 

[unprincipled peter]

Interesting, do you think this timeline is at risk of that?

which risk?
Turtlebaum? Eugene is the only one I would boo. He was a great military mind who would have risen. Still, even the greats have to put in their dues. I think his meteoric rise here is too fast, and too convenient. I applaud England pulling back from the brink, and the dissension (where does Anne stand on this? the regency is a tightrope walk at this point, so she has to be careful)

The multiple PODs are already done, so go with it. that one is just my personal taste.

Louis wasn't a fool. He blundered and got more of a war than he bargained for. If he is staying clear of Spanish Netherlands now, he'll stay clear all the way through. He wants short wars, and bringing England/Dutch in makes it a long war.

 

[VVD0D95]

which risk?
Turtlebaum? Eugene is the only one I would boo. He was a great military mind who would have risen. Still, even the greats have to put in their dues. I think his meteoric rise here is too fast, and too convenient. I applaud England pulling back from the brink, and the dissension (where does Anne stand on this? the regency is a tightrope walk at this point, so she has to be careful)

The multiple PODs are already done, so go with it. that one is just my personal taste.

Louis wasn't a fool. He blundered and got more of a war than he bargained for. If he is staying clear of Spanish Netherlands now, he'll stay clear all the way through. He wants short wars, and bringing England/Dutch in makes it a long war.

Alrighty .

And agreed there, Anne is currently trying to play both Mother and Regent, so she's got a lot on her plate-a feature of the modern woman's life as well, according to many of my friends- so that's going to be fun exploring.

Agreed on the multiple fronts, though it does unfortunately mean that Churchill won't get the battles that earned him his reputation otl, in ttl.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Agreed on the multiple fronts, though it does unfortunately mean that Churchill won't get the battles that earned him his reputation otl, in ttl.

Oh I don't know - those 5 regiments in Holland (and more than likely some Dutch ones) could be very useful if the Imperial forces suffered some reverses along the Rhine. Lets not forget how far Churchill's remit extended IOTL

 

[VVD0D95]

Oh I don't know - those 5 regiments in Holland (and more than likely some Dutch ones) could be very useful if the Imperial forces suffered some reverses along the Rhine. Lets not forget how far Churchill's remit extended IOTL

That is very very true

 

[unprincipled peter]

Those troops can be 'loaned' to an active combatant, too. That way, a declaration of war isn't technically there.

 

[VVD0D95]

Those troops can be 'loaned' to an active combatant, too. That way, a declaration of war isn't technically there.

Vey very true

 

[Derek Pullem]

This is alt history, so as long as there's a semblance of plausibility, it can be possible. Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. Who would have thought le Grand Dauphin would stop his carriage to talk to a completely unknown priest who had just been ministering a small pox victim, followed up by a measles outbreak killing le Petit Dauphin, and the infant next in line, followed by the Duke of Berry being crushed by a horse?
I'm a fan of posing a single what if, and then exploring where it leads.If you want to kill off Max E, it is acceptable to surmise that with an altered war, a battle goes differently, and Max steps in front of a bullet. But here, for no apparent reason, he listens to Eugene, is killed, while Eugene goes from unknown to head of the army. It's a separate WI (listening to Eugene), as is Charles II dying. It's only my personal opinion that having too many separate PODs is wrong. It isn't wrong, except in my head. It can make for an interesting story, though.

Turtlebaum is good at writing alternate history, but he likes to recreate OTL scenarios but just change the names, or having people/groups react the same, even though circumstances change. For instance, in one book, the US south succeeds at seceding, then becomes an exact duplicate of Nazi Germany. WWI trench warfare is recreated in the US verbatim. Historical figures show up long after the POD with the same personality, even though the circumstances of the parents meeting and raising offspring should be butterflied (like Napoleon showing up, still taking power, 100 yrs after a world changing POD). In my opinion, he's a good writer, but a hack at alt history. Bubblegum for the masses.

I'll make one post and if we want to continue then suggest we start a new thread. My forum "rank" Butterfly killer is not an idle name tag but an expression against rampant butterflies. I find it strange that the same people who disparage the "great man" historians also promote the idea that these "great men" could never appear due to butterflies if there is a PoD. I guess my attitude is coloured by sci-fi and Asimov's "psychohistory" concept. There are an infinite number of butterflies operating at any one time but the cumulative effect of these butterflies is not always as great as you might expect. Any individual butterfly may eliminate an OTL person from existence but the probability that someone similar (or even someone with the same name and background) appears is not zero. The more extreme the chaotic effect of the original butterfly the less likely a specific person to exist but if you follow a marxist line of historical thought the likelihood that someone with the same general opinions and views taking their place is high if the underlying demographics and beliefs are maintained.

If you stick to the idea that one butterfly can change the world aren't you by implication accepting the discredited "great man" theory of historical causality?

 

[unprincipled peter]

I'll make one post and if we want to continue then suggest we start a new thread. My forum "rank" Butterfly killer is not an idle name tag but an expression against rampant butterflies. I find it strange that the same people who disparage the "great man" historians also promote the idea that these "great men" could never appear due to butterflies if there is a PoD. I guess my attitude is coloured by sci-fi and Asimov's "psychohistory" concept. There are an infinite number of butterflies operating at any one time but the cumulative effect of these butterflies is not always as great as you might expect. Any individual butterfly may eliminate an OTL person from existence but the probability that someone similar (or even someone with the same name and background) appears is not zero. The more extreme the chaotic effect of the original butterfly the less likely a specific person to exist but if you follow a marxist line of historical thought the likelihood that someone with the same general opinions and views taking their place is high if the underlying demographics and beliefs are maintained.

If you stick to the idea that one butterfly can change the world aren't you by implication accepting the discredited "great man" theory of historical causality?

I don't know enough about the great man theory (or can't wrap my head around it enough) to agree, or disagree.
I believe individuals can change the world, but any given individual is not pre-destined to have such an impact, nor is it automatic (or given the circumstance, likely) that if any given individual is whisked away an equal will pop up in such person's place. If Frederick the Great's (or Elizabeth the Great's, or any great) parents declined to have sex the night he was conceived, that sets off a chain of events unlikely to be duplicated, and history as we know it is very much different. Sure, similar personalities exist, but without being in the right place (or family), at the right time, they are just footnotes.

Sometimes, it's not so critical for any given individual to lead a movement, other times, the individual is critical to achieve the same overall result. No two circumstances are the same. The greater the impact an individual has through his own efforts, the less likely any other individual will duplicate it if the original is butterflied. Some people (like me) are replaceable, overall. Others (like Einstein), not so much.

Nor are all butterflies created equal. All change history, but a small number of them dramatically change history.

 

[VVD0D95]

I did have a question for you all, if Maia Antonia is recognised as the rightful queen of Spain and is betrothed or
Married to James Sobieski could the Cortes encourage a split of inheritance? With Leopold
Maximilian getting Bavaria whilst Sobieski and Maria’s kids get soain?

 

[isabella]

I did have a question for you all, if Maia Antonia is recognised as the rightful queen of Spain and is betrothed or
Married to James Sobieski could the Cortes encourage a split of inheritance? With Leopold
Maximilian getting Bavaria whilst Sobieski and Maria’s kids get soain?

Pretty likely they will not do it... As they had not done it when they had the chance to give the Crowns to Ferdinand (born and raised there) instead of his older brother Karl who had already other lands and was a full foreigner...

 

[VVD0D95]

Pretty likely they will not do it... As they had not done it when they had the chance to give the Crowns to Ferdinand (born and raised there) instead of his older brother Karl who had already other lands and was a full foreigner...

Alright interesting another reason for Louis to get involved then

 

[isabella]

Alright interesting another reason for Louis to get involved then

They will not react kindly to French intervention. Margarita and Antonia were recognized as heiresses and Marie Therésè’s renunciation accepted as valid. Plus they had not let foreign Kings dictate what Spain (or Castile) must do in the past (not accepting Leopold decision to deprive Antonia of her rights of succession, or Castile refuting to accept Ferdinand of Austria over Charles as Ferdinand of Aragon wanted).

If Louis XIV try to meddle when he has no right he will lose any chance to get more influence in Spain (as right now he has some thanks to the French party and his niece Marie Louise, wife of Carlos II). The only reasonable thing he can do is hoping in a daughter of Bourgogne for marrying her in Spain in future

 

[VVD0D95]

They will not react kindly to French intervention. Margarita and Antonia were recognized as heiresses and Marie Therésè’s renunciation accepted as valid. Plus they had not let foreign Kings dictate what Spain (or Castile) must do in the past (not accepting Leopold decision to deprive Antonia of her rights of succession, or Castile refuting to accept Ferdinand of Austria over Charles as Ferdinand of Aragon wanted).

If Louis XIV try to meddle when he has no right he will lose any chance to get more influence in Spain (as right now he has some thanks to the French party and his niece Marie Louise, wife of Carlos II). The only reasonable thing he can do is hoping in a daughter of Bourgogne for marrying her in Spain in future

True though his influence in soain is pretty much gone now with Carlos ii dead this rendering Marie Louise somewhat useless to him

 

[isabella]

True though his influence in soain is pretty much gone now with Carlos ii dead this rendering Marie Louise somewhat useless to him

Well the French party is still powerful and Louis can hope they will influence Antonia and her husband in his favor. Plus he can hope in having a French girl as next princess of the Asturias

 

[VVD0D95]

Well the French party is still powerful and Louis can hope they will influence Antonia and her husband in his favor. Plus he can hope in having a French girl as next princess of the Asturias

This is true

 

[isabella]

This is true

Plus Antonia and Leopold can always use the wedding cards for getting Savoy on their side as Savoy’s daughters right now are still in their cradles: Maria Adelaide, the eldest (engaged to Bourgogne) is 4 years and half old, Maria Anna (who in OTL will die in early August) is almost 3 years old and Maria Luisa (OTL Queen of Spain) will be 2 years old in a couple of months while he is sonless (in OTL his eldest son will be born only in 1699 and his future successor only in 1701).

Archduke Karl is 4 years and half (and Joseph has no son) while Antonia has a newborn son so...

 

[VVD0D95]

Plus Antonia and Leopold can always use the wedding cards for getting Savoy on their side as Savoy’s daughters right now are still in their cradles: Maria Adelaide, the eldest (engaged to Bourgogne) is 4 years and half old, Maria Anna (who in OTL will die in early August) is almost 3 years old and Maria Luisa (OTL Queen of Spain) will be 2 years old in a couple of months while he is sonless (in OTL his eldest son will be born only in 1699 and his future successor only in 1701).

Archduke Karl is 4 years and half (and Joseph has no son) while Antonia has a newborn son so...

Very true Maria Anna being betrothed to Leopold Maximilian makes sense