AHC: Peerless Air Ministry
- Thread starter perfectgeneral
- Start date
I could tease you! but the Mustang is just to beautiful and good an ircraft to chuck away, so yes the specification will be issued as OTL.
formion
Banned
Hyperwar has this quite useful source for the British war economy and the road to Lend-Lease https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Civil-WarEcon/index.html#contents
as for so many things in life … it's not the purchase price that hurts, but the upkeep.
Seriously its "Logistics, Logistics, Logistics" especially when you have "Location, Location" after "Location" as Britain had in 1940 and 41.
It's bad enough that the PAM built the Defiant instead of more cannon armed Hurricanes
… (though better an adequate fighter design than an inadequate light bomber I suppose)
but to add more poor designs to the mix … especially in distant theatres
Errolwi
Monthly Donor
If you must stooge around France to reduce the volume of Uncle Joe's moaning, may as well hang a bomb under a Tomahawk? Also, is getting spares to Egypt via the Cape from the USA that different from doing it from the Midlands?
Besides some short-term decisions are to be expected.
Besides some short-term decisions are to be expected.
This is August 1940 NOT August 1941 … "Uncle Joe" was our main enemy's active ally in attacking Poland and is still a major logistical support to him ..
and since there will be at least some Hurricanes in Egypt and Malta and the Far East …
Much better to have more of the same than a dolly mixture of bad types.
BTW the Hurricane is easier to transport than a Spit .. detachable wings.
The same feature makes it easier to upgrade guns and bomb points if converting to a fighter bomber
Quite apart from being more rugged on landing and easier to maintain.
In the short term a TTL model ~ the OTL Mark IIC (4 hispanos, hardpoints for 2x500 bomb or fuel tanks) would be useful anywhere from Dover to Singapore
If they can manage the "Universal Wing" concept, it's even more flexible though if dedicated to ground attack attaching more armour would be better (as OTL Mk IV)
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Ah, there is your lend lease to Russia, Christmas '41. Lots of small batch fire sale orders or could help they Finland in the Winter War sooner?
The idea of a PBY line in Australia makes a lot of sense. Pre-war plans to patrol the seas and that huge Aussie coastline. Some (four minimum) forward positioned in Singapore, Andamans, Ceylon, Sarawak, Brunei and Rangoon. It starts to look like a license build scale of order. Sell on to the Dutch would be off the table due to license conditions. USA likes to export. "Empire" only, east of Indian mainland, west of Canadian mainland? The PBY has a lot of civilian appeal in the Pacific.
Canada making the Mosquito, because of the wood supply (Canada and South America). And a plywood Miles Master advanced trainer for the Pilots Empire Training Scheme. Primary trainer can't still be the DH Tiger Moth. Some sort of canvas and ply-spar Miles Master knock off that looks a bit like a Chipmunk, but doesn't perform so well? Or the Avro 626.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Avro_Type_626_MIKAN_3241746.jpg
Steel tube under fabric. A monoplane "pre-Chipmunk" version leads into the Hurricane production (for ETS type/conversion training). Armstrong Siddeley Cheetah engine, so Airspeed Oxfords or Avro Ansons for twin engine training.
Ship the Kestrel engine production over? As early tank/mech engines too? Is a push pull power egg from two Kestrels possible for Mosquito training before the Merlin is ready?
Earlier Hawker, Avro and Siddeley merger?
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I don't think you should care that much about the price or logistics, if a squadron of early fighters (even P36s) ends up in the Med and means the British win an early battle or better defend Malta or Create then the cost of the squadron might well be totally irrelevant.....?
I think there is far to much talking about how US v GB economic trading/gifts/screwing over was main focus of WWII when actually anything that hurts the Axis especially early on might well snowball exponentially and therefore save far more by saving lives or shortening the war... (as long as its used properly :-( and not simply sent to hunt LW over northern france)
formion
Banned
ITTL there is the possibility of Regia Aeronautica bleeding white during 1940-1941. The are already cannon armed Hurricanes in Malta with more sceduled to come after the BoB. Malta has already its OTL radar stations. Besides, if we see cannon-armed fighters in Egypt and Greece in Q4 1940 they have the potential to seriously attrite the Italians. In OTL the RAF squadrons in Greece had Gladiators until February 1941. Granted that poor airfields and winter conditions will curtail the potential of cannon-armed monoplanes, but still I expect far greater Italian losses. Don't forget that every downed Italian airman will become a POW while RAF aviators would be provided with drinks from a grateful greek population. Between Malta, Egypt and Greece, lets say a dozen cannon-armed fighter squadrons may cause far greater Italian losses than in OTL. There is a golden opportunity that while the bulk of the Italian fighter force are Fiat CR.42s, the Italian pilot pool can be dealt a serious blow.
Another interesting aspect of the PAM is the far better condition of the Coastal Command. If a few squadrons can be moved in the Med, the Italian logistic apparatus can face a great challenge. In OTL a single Swordfish squadron in Malta could do little and the Italian had very very limited shipping losses. Have a few more anti-shipping squadrons flying from Malta, Egypt and Crete and there may be butterflies even in the deployment of the Africa Corps.
Lastly, in OTL the RAF seriously neglected the development of Crete as an operational base before the German attack. Maleme was half finished after 6 months and was built in uneven terrain in an exposed location. The OTL Chania International Airport is located in a far better position: Next to Suda Bay, with hills on the north providing an excellent flak location, with flat and well drained terrain. Furthermore, the small Heraklion civilian airfield was not properly developed. After 6 months, RAF had half finished 2 airfields in what Churchill had described as "a new Scapa". A semi-decent effort with a couple of engineer battalions (not to mention the friendly and accomodating local population) should have produced 3 proper airbases and a north-south road in those 6 months. The 3rd airfield I would put in Tympaki in the south, as Luftwaffe did in 1941-1942. It was an excellent location to provide air cover towards Cyrenaica and cover the approaches to Crete.
Another interesting aspect of the PAM is the far better condition of the Coastal Command. If a few squadrons can be moved in the Med, the Italian logistic apparatus can face a great challenge. In OTL a single Swordfish squadron in Malta could do little and the Italian had very very limited shipping losses. Have a few more anti-shipping squadrons flying from Malta, Egypt and Crete and there may be butterflies even in the deployment of the Africa Corps.
Lastly, in OTL the RAF seriously neglected the development of Crete as an operational base before the German attack. Maleme was half finished after 6 months and was built in uneven terrain in an exposed location. The OTL Chania International Airport is located in a far better position: Next to Suda Bay, with hills on the north providing an excellent flak location, with flat and well drained terrain. Furthermore, the small Heraklion civilian airfield was not properly developed. After 6 months, RAF had half finished 2 airfields in what Churchill had described as "a new Scapa". A semi-decent effort with a couple of engineer battalions (not to mention the friendly and accomodating local population) should have produced 3 proper airbases and a north-south road in those 6 months. The 3rd airfield I would put in Tympaki in the south, as Luftwaffe did in 1941-1942. It was an excellent location to provide air cover towards Cyrenaica and cover the approaches to Crete.
Swordfish IV - built (or adapted from a II) .. for Canadian use - did indeed have an enclosed canopy for all 3 crew
AIUI Several preserved but some un restored.
Cant find a pic yet
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830 sdn in Malta forced the Italian to divert convoys to the West of Malta in OTL which meant there was more opportunity for the RN's subs to get at them, reduced the number of round trips convoy that that could be made in a given period and left them more exposed to air attack in daytime. If they could add an extra squadron of Stringbags that would be great, but logistics in OTL were pretty tight until well into 1942.
But I wonder ...
During OTL, a British purchasing group approached North American Aviation to build P-40s and were offered the NA-73 instead. To which the British agreed based on the promise of a short build time. As we know, the P-51 does not get built without an Air Ministry order and does not get married to the Merlin if it doesn't reach the UK.
If the Air Ministry takes a pass on the P-40, does the Mustang ever exist beyond the design stage? The only reason it got past the Washington bureaucracy in 1940 was that it was "designed for British use".
Perhaps they go to North American in search of what they might have on the drawing board?
Do not worry in the PAM the Mustang will fly, though it will have an all British rival!!
formion
Banned
That's the thing though: if the British retain Crete (quite easily if I may add), the logistics become much simpler. If there is the added bonus of a retained Cyrenaica then the RN can avoid the majority of its OTL grievous losses with the Malta Convoys. Lastly, there should have been greater effort to reinforce Malta before April 1941.
The MB3 with the Griffon that Martin Baker wanted not the Sabre that was foisted on them?
The MB3 project is in the PAM, The engine selection is not the Sabre (that has been killed of, or so far on the back burner that alternative engines are being developed) the Griffon ITTL as in OTL will be prioritized for the Spitfire developments. ITTL Napier being chastised over their 'Victorian' premises and production methods are with Government help building new facilities but not to build Sabres.
Correction to my post above, At the moment the new Factory for Napier's outside Liverpool is being fitted out to build the Sabre. The Sabre engine at this time, Sept 1940 is not in serial production as it still has serious reliability problems. With the current battle for air supremacy over the UK. Napiers are well down the priority list for Machines, tools and skilled personnel, including design staff and engineers.