AHC: Peerless Air Ministry

Reader mode

sonofpegasus

The question is with two horses (Hurricane and Defiant) that are similar in capability which one do you back long term? In OTL the Hurricane remained in production into 1944 when "The last of the many" rolled off the Kingston production line. ITTL which one gets canned, do you kill off the Hurri and keep the Defiant or vice a versa? ITTL Glosters are not just building Hurricanes, they have a relatively low volume line going for the Reaper as well, so that too is a factor, Also unlike OTL Hawkers have a Hurricane replacement, The Tornado, ready for serial production (at Langley). Folland are working on FAA aircraft, so no Sea Hurricane required and Folland are not building Spitfire bits ITTL.
As I implied earlier once the BoB is resolved the PAM are going to need to polish their crystal ball and make far reaching decisions as to what equipment is needed by the RAF, short term, mid term, and long term to prosecute the countries war aims and who gets what, when and where within the various RAF Commands.
 

pjmidd

Given who is making the Defiant and Hurricane, I can see Hawker being told to dump the Hurricane and get the Tornado ready. Reasons well OTL the Hurricane was the anti-bomber and the Spitfire the anti-fighter preferred choices, ITTL the Defiant is the better bomber killer. Add in that the Hurricane cannot really be developed much more performance wise, its got a replacement ready, the only choices are more on how much development work do you do on the Defiant. In its favor, its already got cannon and its faster so a Defiant fighter/bomber seems to tick the boxes easily. Query is how much they relatively cost, Hurricanes were much cheaper than spitfires, don't think we have been told the cost of ITTL Defiant compared to Spitfires.

Going forward, In the Far East, Defiant's would make a difference, from the descriptions, the Defiant pilots seem to not be dog fighting but more boom and zooming due to the Defiant's higher speed but lack of maneuverability. Such tactics and starting with cannon will make the IJN/IJA's losses higher if the Pacific War starts on time ( I'm assuming the Far East is still the dumping ground for old aircraft ). Conversely Africa could be slightly worse, the Hurricane had the advantage of being very simple and easy to keep in action, the Defiant only really bringing a bit more speed.
 

Some Bloke

I'd say the Hurricane's more likely to get the chop as the Defiant has a larger, more modernisable airframe. That and it frees up production for the Reaper in the Gloster factories.
However, I thin the Hurricane will still be seen as a useful second line fighter and deploy in the Far East.
 
Driftless

Driftless

Donor
Which of the Hurricane/Defiant would be easier to maintain out East? Or is that a toss-up question? I'm guessing a part of that calculus includes the wear and tear from climate (heat, humidity, dust, some rough fields) and the relative level of experience with airframe and engine repairs. With the big jump in volume of aircraft being sent to South Asia and Australia, wouldn't you be largely starting from a small cadre of maintenance crew and adding in a ton of rookies?
 

sonofpegasus

Do you as the PAM hedge your bets, maybe keep one Hurricane production line running, Glosters building Reapers, Langley building Tornedos and leave Kingston building Hurricanes. The PAM also have to decide what they are going to request CCAF to build in Canada. So far in the PAM I have not mentioned the Canadian production at all! an Error on my part. So to cover that one, do I simply mimic OTL. That is an easy option but if not hurricane then what in their stead and would that delay the initial construction even if the order and start dates remained as OTL.
 
AlanJWhite

AlanJWhite

sonofpegasus said:
Do you as the PAM hedge your bets, maybe keep one Hurricane production line running, Glosters building Reapers, Langley building Tornedos and leave Kingston building Hurricanes. The PAM also have to decide what they are going to request CCAF to build in Canada. So far in the PAM I have not mentioned the Canadian production at all! an Error on my part. So to cover that one, do I simply mimic OTL. That is an easy option but if not hurricane then what in their stead and would that delay the initial construction even if the order and start dates remained as OTL.
Click to expand...

as if you do not have enough on your agenda don't forget Australia either.
 

yulzari

The Defiant certainly has more development potential in whatever future role. The Hurricane requires less skilled labour and is easier to make once you have the tube rolling kit. Two thoughts come to mind for the Hurricane if the Defiant is retained. One is to ship the production kit off to Australia, India, South Africa or New Zealand. Given the more than one production line maybe to more than one of these? Won't make Hurricanes in time for the Japanese invasions though. Really it would be better to make them in the UK and ship them out.

Otherwise convert to a 2 seater with a lesser engine than the Merlin as an advanced trainer, or target tug. Obsolete/damaged/below spec parts into a reduced power training Merlin? Perseus/Mercury/Pegasus? These are tasks for which something has to be acquired anyway.
 

pjmidd

sonofpegasus said:
Any suggestions as to what the PAM would be doing in Australia are more than welcome!
Click to expand...
OTL DAC was producing the Beaufort, later Beaufighter, originally with the expectation that they would use American engines ( Beaufighter ended up with imported Hercules ). CAC was making assorted trainers and later the Boomerang. The Beauforts were ordered in 1939 pre war, so the only change on the Bristol aircraft might be using American engines on the Beaufighters. De Havilland was producing trainers but later did Mosquito's and CAC was assembling Mustangs from kits as well as Wirraways/Boomerangs.

If changes are made it would most likely be assembling American aircraft from kits early on with the proportion of Australian sourced components rising over time. Lack of an Australian aircraft engine capability limits what they can do. How shipping is doing will decided if they end up building British Aircraft since the chokepoint is getting the key imported components to Australia especially engines.
 

StevoJH

sonofpegasus said:
Any suggestions as to what the PAM would be doing in Australia are more than welcome!
Click to expand...

Is is possible to induce Rolls Royce or Bristol to invest in an engine plant in Australia? Plus Bristol De Haviland or Hawker to open an Aircraft plant? Even if its building civil types its got to be better then OTL.

So CAC and DAP were setup to produce aircraft in Australia...between the two of them they built the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Beaufort, later https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Beaufighter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Boomerang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Wirraway
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAC_Wackett

Mostly powered by licensed produced versions of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_R-1830_Twin_Wasp
 

Marquis

Ideas:
De Havilland adapts the Tiger Moth to similar to the TM-derived Stampe SV.4. The TM was fairly unforgiving and in wartime, it was killing too many student pilots. Either that or investigate a Moth Minor/prote-Chipmunk monoplane trainer.

Miles Master as principal single-engined trainer.

Cut bomber production to no more than Manchester and Lancaster (+ Mossie).
Cut flying boat production to Sunderland then Shetland only - Shagbat is replaced by radar.
Cut single-engine fighter production to Hawker (Hurricane, then Typhoon & Tempest) and Supermarine (Spitfire).
Cut twin-engine fighter production to Reaper and Beaufighter (+Mossie).

Naval needs are a dive bomber, interceptor, torpedo bomber and maritime patrol:
Fairey Firefly w/ P.24 Monarch engine for bombing and possible torpedo carriage.
Sea Hurricane & successors as fleet interceptors.
Short Shetland maritime patrol flying boat.

Avoid buying American as much as possible. Convert as much industrial capacity over to building Mollins QF 6-Pounder 57mm guns - co-op with the Admiralty and Army. Get the people behind the POLSTEN Gun to optimise it for ease of manufacture, as Chrysler did with the Bofors in OTL. The QF 6lb (+Mollins autoloader) can do a lot of jobs. Medium AA, anti-tank, tank, MTB gun, even sling them in Beaufighters, Mosquitos etc.

Get more Merlin production space to build Meteor engines.

EDIT:

sonofpegasus said:
August the 31st

Day; Fighter Commands Heaviest losses. South-east and eastern air fields again main targets.

Night; Heavy raid on Liverpool. Light attacks from north-east coast to Portsmouth.
Click to expand...

This is the night OTL that HMS Prince of Wales got bombed while fitting out in Cammel Lairds at Birkenhead. Did that happen this time? If not, then PoW will likely be better prepared for war with a number of damage control tests not being skipped and possibly being worked up in time for the Bismarck sortie.
 
Last edited:

sonofpegasus

Sorry HMS Prince of Wales is OTL, Double sixes cannot be thrown every time! Thanks for the ideas and information. How dare you sat drop the Shagbat! in the PAM she is an important part of RAF ASR, In the PAM naval equivalent Sir Arthur Dowding has at least 1 Shagbat on each fleet carrier in the SAR role. In The PAM, the DH Flamingo is in series production principley for Maritime Air Command. This is in replacement of the Blackburn Botha. This means only a handful of the Lockheed Electras have been purchased primarily for Imperial airways. Whilst the Manchester is in series production its four engine stablemate is being designed as a contingency in anticipation of a shortage of the Fairy Monarch engine. Fairey Battle production has been reduced as fairy albacore monoplane torpedo bombers are built instead. As we get towards the end of 1940 in the PAM all these changes will become apparent as will their butterflies.
 

King Augeas

The Air Ministry has to plan, as OTL, for a resumption of the BoB in spring 1941. Numbers will matter - so I think they'd keep the Hurricane in production rather than lose numerical strength transitioning production lines to more modern aircraft that won't see service until late 1941.

After Hitler turns east, then it's clear that there'll be no Second BoB. Production lines can be changed and surplus Hurricanes shipped to the Med and east.
 

jsb

ElMarquis said:
Avoid buying American as much as possible.
Click to expand...
Not sure I agree, especially if you can order early and pay pre war depression prices this would allow you to get past very real limits on GB production due to the rearmament boom.....

sonofpegasus said:
Any suggestions as to what the PAM would be doing in Australia are more than welcome!
Click to expand...
sonofpegasus said:
The PAM also have to decide what they are going to request CCAF to build in Canada.
Click to expand...
I think the best is have them fall out and both go American due to the delay that GB will incur from the RAF orders already in the system....

If they go for ordering P&W Canada and Canadian Vickers etc to build Consolidated PBY Catalina under license on say 1936 (rather than 41... OTL) they might be useful? (and have them order a new bespoke large US built and designed factory to do it under an extension of the shadow program?)

They could then add Grumman F4F Wildcats using the same engine for FAA?
 

Errolwi

Monthly Donor
yulzari said:
...Two thoughts come to mind for the Hurricane if the Defiant is retained. One is to ship the production kit off to Australia, India, South Africa or New Zealand. ...
Click to expand...

OTL's knocking out Tiger Moths is the appropriate level of production for NZ. Any earlier availability of Hudsons or Catalinas to replace Vildebeests and Singapores for Home and Pacific patrols gratefully taken up. Obviously the Article XV 488 (NZ) and 453 (AU) Squadrons, 21 Sqn RAAF, and 243 Sqn RAF will appreciate anything better than the Buffalos they got, especially as they were not able to make use of their longer range. Also Beauforts replacing the 2 Singapore Vildebeest squadrons before things kick off would be good.
 

Marquis

jsb said:
Not sure I agree, especially if you can order early and pay pre war depression prices this would allow you to get past very real limits on GB production due to the rearmament boom...
Click to expand...

Buy American machine tools with a fixed time contract. The US screwed us OTL by hanging onto paid for machine tools and using them in their own factories.

The matter of fact is that the American policy is to break British power. I recall they even looked at the Crown Jewels as payment.
 

sonofpegasus

Thanks, PTL for you apposite comment above, here is the balance I am trying to make. So far every choice I have made on behalf of the PAM ITTL I have tried to make by considering the 'conditions of the day' not on what hindsight tells me was actually needed or used. Due to lack of planning whist writing the earlier part of this story, I am now having to forensically build a time line for all the earlier chapters and changes within them rom OTL. The Gross changes are easy, it's the little ones that are hard to keep track off. The main block to buying American is the Treasury, certainly before Munich. Even after the DoW the Treasury are still going to be questioning anything that is costing hard currency. With Beaverbrook and Tizard on the technological mission to the USA in 1940 ITTL the transfer of British advances is less of a 'fire sale' with more license and reciprocal offset deals being made. OTL one unintentional benefit of the Allied aircraft purchases in the period 1938-40 was that when America entered the War in late 1941 her aircraft industry had already started to expand dramatically. In the PAM, whilst British orders for aircraft are some what less than OTL post July 1940 Britain is taking over the aircraft ordered by the now occupied European nations and doing so at a bargain price.
 
Reader mode
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top