Affiliated States of Boreoamerica thread

Tyche

Donor
I definitely see the problem with using maple leaves, too. Now they're justified - the leaf began as a symbol of Canada in the TTL sense, which is to say, of modern Quebec. Maybe there's a more elegant way to incorporate it into a flag design?

I keep coming back to the historical problem here. Louisiana had a good reason to start using the fleur-de-lis: it had a counter-revolution. That's a long established part of the historical narrative. Canada never did that in this timeline, much as some of the people there might have wanted to. It kept on functioning as a colony, its paternalistic system being awkwardly fitted into the new regime. I don't see any point in the timeline when its people would be moved to adopt a fleur-de-lis symbol, especially once its rival Louisiana was using it. The maple leaf is the obvious choice, but I want the design to be good.
I see that more clearly now, I was going off just aesthetic value and didn't totally understand the symbolism at play. I think possibly the leaves should look more stylized? I think that's what is keeping it from fitting into that design in my mind's eye. Hell it may even just be the less definition in that particular file, the cross looks much sharper than the leaves. I now think that either a slightly different, more stylized and sharper leaf silhouette would fit better on the design for Canada. Perhaps a less bulky leaf, less like the OTL Canadian maple leaf but more like the leaves on the old Quebec Blue Ensign shield and the Carillon-Sacré-Coeur!
 
I see that more clearly now, I was going off just aesthetic value and didn't totally understand the symbolism at play. I think possibly the leaves should look more stylized? I think that's what is keeping it from fitting into that design in my mind's eye. Hell it may even just be the less definition in that particular file, the cross looks much sharper than the leaves. I now think that either a slightly different, more stylized and sharper leaf silhouette would fit better on the design for Canada. Perhaps a less bulky leaf, less like the OTL Canadian maple leaf but more like the leaves on the old Quebec Blue Ensign shield and the Carillon-Sacré-Coeur!

Not a bad idea. I'll try to put together a design.
 
What is Chicagou like?

Relevant material that's already written:

Chicagou Country:

Chicagou is one of the major commercial centers of not just the Upper Country, but of the entire ASB. It is located in a strategic spot where the Mississippi watershed comes very close to Lake Michigan. Small-scale canoe trade fed a growing village, but the real growth began after 1850. A canal to the Illinois River created a new commercial highway, diverting trade away from the traditional route through the Ouisconsin and Renard Rivers to the north. Modern roads and railroads followed a bit later, and by the 1890s the city was a booming industrial center with a diverse immigrant population. Chicago Country, already taking shape before the boom, was firmly established with a separate legislature and judiciary at the time of the canal's construction. Chicagou has since then been a rival to Detroit, typically seen as the rough, burly counterpart to the more refined and cultured state capital. Despite this perception the city has a vibrant cultural scene of its own. A "city of neighborhoods," Chicagou is really a patchwork of small local communities, some of them stretching back a century or more, others of more recent creation by groups of newcomers.

In a post about Christmas...
Historically, the Christmas Eve celebration was the highlight of the winter season and, indeed, one of the most exciting events of the year in many old villages of the Upper Country. In the big cities the tradition morphed into a festival lasting a week or more with lots of food and music, mainly modern pop but with some nods to tradition. The biggest single Christmas festival is in Detroit, the capital, a pretty big-budget affair that is opened by the Governor and draws acts from around the world. In Chicagou, individual neighborhoods hold separate festivals on different days in December and January. These are a way for the diverse neighborhoods of the city to show off their uniqueness and compete with one another.

I have been assuming that Chicagou is roughly comparable in size to the OTL city, probably slightly smaller for a number of reasons. This would still make it one of the largest French speaking cities in the world, which has implications for the whole of Francophone culture in this timeline. Chicagou grew as a rail hub for the region west of the Great Lakes, so all of the produce of this region was processed here. Wheat, maize, livestock, ore. There was never anything like the Union Stockyards, however, because much of the Great Plains sits across the border in Mexican territory.

The "City of Neighborhoods" aspect comes directly from the city's culture in our timeline. The exact identities of the neighborhoods are different. From the start of Chicago's era of growth, it was not just foreign immigrants who gathered in enclaves. Domestic migrants also clustered together. Different parts of the city spoke English or Dutch in the 19th century. Like in other urban areas, indigenous languages tended to be replaced by French, but there have been enough Anishinaabe speakers to form a distinct community. Unfortunately, the more indigenous parts of the city have always had to struggle against the perception that they are low, dirty, and crime ridden. With the Mexican border being so much closer, there has also been Mexican community for longer than in our timeline.

And of course the geographic layout is not the same at all. The street grid is based on French long lots rather than on the survey squares of the Northwest Territory. Most of the diagonal streets like Milwaukee, Ogden, and Lincoln Avenues are the exception: they follow the courses of ancient trails that sit on natural ridges of the land. So they are still in place, but they have different names, and neighborhood streets are more likely to be aligned to them than to the master plan of the grid. Downtown, near the confluence of the branches of the river, there is an old central square with green space, a cathedral, and civic buildings, following the pattern of French colonial cities, even though unlike Detroit, Chicagou was not yet a major city in the colonial era. La Vieille Place is very pretty and is a must for anyone visiting the city, but the centers of activity have moved to larger, newer open areas to the southeast.

Outside the central parts of the city is Chicagou Country, a constituent of the Upper Country. It is one of the most politically consolidated of all the Upper Country's constituents. Municipalities outside Chicagou itself exist but are far less powerful than the regional government. This follows the high degree of economic and cultural centralization of the region; there is nothing outside the city that comes close to rivaling it in any dimension. A reform of the 1970s gave the constituent countries more power to arrange their own governments, and this only accentuated this tendency.
 

Tyche

Donor
In line with @TimTurner's questions, what was the major avenue into the ASB for foreign immigrants? I'd assume it was handled separately, and largely by coastal states until the confederal government truly came into being. But even then it might be more of a harmonization of discrete immigration policies rather than actual centralization, like how currencies were handled ITTL.
 
Not sure if this would be useful for Iroquoia, but MonsterTalk just released an episode where they interviewed David Shango from the Seneca Nation Museum (in Salamanca, NY) about the legends and monsters of the Seneca people. Haven't finished listening to it yet, but the bits where David talks about stop signs being in Seneca and meeting with the ambassador of France put me in the mind of the ASB.

Plus there is apparently some oral story about a giant tusked animal destroying a village that modern people believe may have been a reference to a mammoth. Just something cool from the episode I wanted to mention.
 
do we see major Polish areas in Chicagou?

I'm not sure I can answer that yet... do you know why Chicago in particular attracted so many Poles in real life?

The chronology of Poland and its allies is going to play a role. At a certain point, the Polish King, who was also the Tsar of Russia, became the protector of Oregon. Oregon never became a direct colony of Russia, but that relationship was going certainly going to have an effect on where people in the Tsar's domains chose to emigrate. All else being equal, there would be a nudge in the direction of Oregon. It was probably easier to get passage, get the right papers, and so forth, if you stayed within the empire and its associated states. But we don't know yet when that relationship came into being. My sense is that it was quite late in the 19th century, in the 1880s or 90s. I would expect that Polish immigration to Boreoamerica decreased somewhat at that point, though it did not cease completely.

To really get a good handle on immigration, I would want to compare OTL immigration patterns of the United States with Canada and some of the Latin American countries, and then see where that stream of people would be likely to land in this timeline. It's not a topic I'm terribly familiar with.

In line with @TimTurner's questions, what was the major avenue into the ASB for foreign immigrants? I'd assume it was handled separately, and largely by coastal states until the confederal government truly came into being. But even then it might be more of a harmonization of discrete immigration policies rather than actual centralization, like how currencies were handled ITTL.

For sure. And the different imperial associations of the states played a role as well. I'm sure that most immigrants from the British Isles ended up in New England first before moving elsewhere. Nativism might take an interesting direction, too. Coastal states that decided they didn't want immigrants could pass laws to pawn migrants off onto interior states that really wanted them.
 
I'm not sure I can answer that yet... do you know why Chicago in particular attracted so many Poles in real life?

The chronology of Poland and its allies is going to play a role. At a certain point, the Polish King, who was also the Tsar of Russia, became the protector of Oregon. Oregon never became a direct colony of Russia, but that relationship was going certainly going to have an effect on where people in the Tsar's domains chose to emigrate. All else being equal, there would be a nudge in the direction of Oregon. It was probably easier to get passage, get the right papers, and so forth, if you stayed within the empire and its associated states. But we don't know yet when that relationship came into being. My sense is that it was quite late in the 19th century, in the 1880s or 90s. I would expect that Polish immigration to Boreoamerica decreased somewhat at that point, though it did not cease completely.

To really get a good handle on immigration, I would want to compare OTL immigration patterns of the United States with Canada and some of the Latin American countries, and then see where that stream of people would be likely to land in this timeline. It's not a topic I'm terribly familiar with.



For sure. And the different imperial associations of the states played a role as well. I'm sure that most immigrants from the British Isles ended up in New England first before moving elsewhere. Nativism might take an interesting direction, too. Coastal states that decided they didn't want immigrants could pass laws to pawn migrants off onto interior states that really wanted them.

Concentrations of immigrants sometimes crop up with little to no pattern. Immigrants like to move to places where there are already people like them. As a result, we have Armenians in Los Angeles, Hungarians in Cleveland, Nigerians in Dallas, Poles in Chicago, Ethiopians in the DC area, Hmong and Somalians in Minneapolis, and so on.

On a related note, how did free movement of people and goods develop within the ASB? Obviously, each state started with their own border and immigration policies, and ended up with a single confederal policy, but when and how did this come to be? At some points in history, did certain states in the ASB require passports or visas to visit from other areas of the ASB?

Are/were there restrictions on becoming a citizen of another state at any time? For example, was there ever a situation where a person from X state might live permanently in Y state, but wasn't allowed to vote or obtain government-issued ID in Y state, having to instead do these in X state?

Do some states, by some quirk of the web of treaties and agreements that make up the ASB, still have the theoretical power to close their borders to the rest of the ASB, even though they would never use that authority?
 
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Tyche

Donor
So what is alcohol consumption like in the ASB? Are some states "dry"? Is the wine better in the French parts?
Back on page 30 False and Venusian describe some of it, and wine is for sure more popular in french-ier parts of the ASB, as one can see from the ASB stereotypes map on the following page!
 
So what is alcohol consumption like in the ASB? Are some states "dry"? Is the wine better in the French parts?

If I remember correctly there was a series of maps that False Dmitri did a while back, One of those "# ways to divide X" maps that were a bit of a fad earlier this year. If I recall alcohol consumption seemed to be pretty on par with OTL (the map about Ohio even was separated into what time people in various parts of Ohio partied till).
 
Back on page 30 False and Venusian describe some of it, and wine is for sure more popular in french-ier parts of the ASB, as one can see from the ASB stereotypes map on the following page!

If I remember correctly there was a series of maps that False Dmitri did a while back, One of those "# ways to divide X" maps that were a bit of a fad earlier this year. If I recall alcohol consumption seemed to be pretty on par with OTL (the map about Ohio even was separated into what time people in various parts of Ohio partied till).

Thanks. Sometimes it becomes hard to remember what has been written about. I was just thinking about the time my wife and I toured wineries in Michigan (which would be part of ATL Upper Country) and was wondering if the subject has been touched on.
 

Gian

Banned
Upper Country's done (among other things):
nRC32dJ.png
 
I like the detail in the map, but maybe keeping the colours consistent by language family would have been more logical and readable?
 
Concentrations of immigrants sometimes crop up with little to no pattern. Immigrants like to move to places where there are already people like them. As a result, we have Armenians in Los Angeles, Hungarians in Cleveland, Nigerians in Dallas, Poles in Chicago, Ethiopians in the DC area, Hmong and Somalians in Minneapolis, and so on.

On a related note, how did free movement of people and goods develop within the ASB? Obviously, each state started with their own border and immigration policies, and ended up with a single confederal policy, but when and how did this come to be? At some points in history, did certain states in the ASB require passports or visas to visit from other areas of the ASB?

This is a good line of questioning, and I'm sorry it took me so long to respond. So freedom of movement - especially the commerce type of movement - was one of the earliest priorities for the Affiliation movement. The guns from the Wars of Independence had barely had time to cool when leaders from the Loyalist and Republican states started getting together to discuss freer trade and an end to tariff wars. The result was the renewed Anglo-American Congresses. They proved to be not so good at preventing another war, but they did create a regime for (relatively) free trade and movement that was restored after the next war and gradually extended to all the states as the confederation formed in the first half of the 19th century.

In those crucial decades between 1830 and 1860, most of the barriers to trade and movement between the states came down. I’d like to think that by the 1850s, there was something like a customs union and nearly open borders, though some of the more peripheral states like Newfoundland would not be fully integrated for a few years yet.

By the 1860s, all signs point to more complete integration. Political pressure has led to a serious curtailment of member states’ ability to engage in their own foreign and military policy: at least eight states sent troops to California to support various colonial claims, and this provoked a major backlash by states who feared getting pulled into someone else’s reckless adventures. And as states become less and less able to make deals with other countries on their own, and as the ASB’s own Grand Council begins to take over this diplomacy, the states are going to take down the remaining barriers between them. A directly elected Parliament exists by now and has emerged as the dominant institution by the end of the decade. And this is also the era when railroads really start to expand, making interstate travel much, much faster. People are going to demand free movement for the sake of convenience if nothing else.

Probably the last barriers to come down relate to imperial privileges. The states of loyalist New England, for example, will want to continue to buy Jamaican sugar more cheaply than their neighbors, and mark up the price a bit Now this kind of thing is not always going to be economically viable, since in this example, there are numerous states in the ASB that are perfectly capable of producing their own sugar and selling it for less than the British stuff. So these kinds of things diminished over time as well. The last vestiges were abolished in c. 1910-1920, when the ASB more or less cut the remaining ties between the colonial powers and their remaining loyalist states, leaving mostly ceremonial and symbolic connections (with some exceptions, see below).

Are/were there restrictions on becoming a citizen of another state at any time? For example, was there ever a situation where a person from X state might live permanently in Y state, but wasn't allowed to vote or obtain government-issued ID in Y state, having to instead do these in X state?

And yes, that’s a whole different question. It started to become an issue around the middle of the 19th century, when for the first time some people in some states started to turn sour on immigration. Until then, of course, pretty much every community was desperate for manpower and was happy to see any newcomers. And even then, the states in the interior still were. So it was pretty easy for the states to reach tacit or even explicit agreements where some coastal states put up policies to discourage immigrants, and the inland states put things in place to attract the same people.

This system fluctuated with politics; less nativist governments in some states might change the laws, and more nativist governments might change them back. But on the whole it seems rather stable. I imagine that outside pressure would do more to change it than anything internal to the ASB. Foreign countries from which people migrated did not like dealing with a patchwork of policies. This pressure gradually led to more uniform laws as foreign diplomats pressured the President and the Grand Council, and the President and the Grand Council pressured Parliament. But even today, I am inclined to think that citizenship requirements are not completely uniform, but immigration and residency laws are.

Do some states, by some quirk of the web of treaties and agreements that make up the ASB, still have the theoretical power to close their borders to the rest of the ASB, even though they would never use that authority?

That’s an interesting idea, can you elaborate on what you have in mind? My first thought was to say probably not, since free movement has been a policy goal for over 200 years; but it sounds like you have a specific idea and it sounds interesting. Were you thinking of a particular state or bloc of states that would want to reserve the right to close their borders?

Like I mentioned, I think it’s possible for citizenship status to remain a state responsibility and for these laws to vary at least a little from state to state, even if the ASB has taken over related things like issuing passports. One is primarily a citizen of one’s state rather than of the ASB. Does this mean that you have to change your citizenship when you move across a state line? Yes, but if you are a native-born citizen it is a simple process… though I can imagine a state like Iroquoia still requiring some sort of test and oath. If you are not native born, you would have to make sure that you meet the requirements of citizenship of the state you want to move to.

Now I don’t think that the variation is extreme from state to state, but I do think that confederal law spells out an acceptable range within which states can choose to set their requirements, rather than a uniform set of requirements. Some of the variation is still tied to the old imperial connections, today represented by various commonwealths. That is to say, Christiana, as an Imperial Commonwealth member, has to have policies that are particularly welcoming to migrants from other Imperial Commonwealth members. Other states don’t have to let the same people become citizens so easily, though they must allow them to travel and become residents freely. The same applies mutatis mutandis for New Scotland, the English loyalist states, St. Pierre, and so forth.

I don’t know, what do you think about that? It feels right to me, but I’m probably not seeing some of the implications of such a system.

Thanks. Sometimes it becomes hard to remember what has been written about. I was just thinking about the time my wife and I toured wineries in Michigan (which would be part of ATL Upper Country) and was wondering if the subject has been touched on.

Certainly there are some very good vineyards in that section of Lake Michigan, along with Lake Erie, the middle Ohio valley, and other parts that we know are good for growing grapes. The alcohol stereotypes map isn’t about production, it’s about the standard drink of the different areas. Is someone likely to say let’s have a beer sometime, or have some wine? That’s what it’s about.

On the alcohol map, probably the biggest difference from OTL is the preponderance of rum in most parts of the coast. This follows the colonial pattern. Because of the trade agreements that I mentioned above, West Indian rum did not go through the slump that it went through in OTL after the Revolution, and it remained the principal drink in most of the port cities. It was mainly inland, where rum was less available, where Scots-Irish whiskey and German beer unseated rum.

But all that isn’t to say that you can’t get most kinds of drink in a bar or liquor store anywhere in the country. Or that different areas don’t produce many kinds of alcohol. In fact, the ASB is the kind of place where Catawba wine for example, once the pride of Ohio, thrived to the present day and is highly prized everywhere. It’s just that it’s made in regions that might stereotypically drink more whiskey than wine because of the historical and cultural connection to Virginia backwoodsmen.

And yes, I the alcohol stereotypes map did require a ridiculous amount of reading into the history of the wine, beer and whiskey industries of the United States. Worth it for a 40x40 pixel map that forms one ninth of a joke image. So worth it.

I like the detail in the map, but maybe keeping the colours consistent by language family would have been more logical and readable?

It's not really a language map, more an ethno-cultural map. The colors follow a general pattern of blue for French, red for English, orange for Dutch.
 
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That’s an interesting idea, can you elaborate on what you have in mind? My first thought was to say probably not, since free movement has been a policy goal for over 200 years; but it sounds like you have a specific idea and it sounds interesting. Were you thinking of a particular state or bloc of states that would want to reserve the right to close their borders?
I'm thinking specifically of the OTL British Monarch's powers, which are supposed to be both far-reaching and virtually nonexistent depending on who's asking and in what context. Notably, I heard that the Canadian conservative Party has used HM's authority in the 1980s (IIRC after the 1982 Canada Act) to ram through legislation without a vote.
 
I'm thinking specifically of the OTL British Monarch's powers, which are supposed to be both far-reaching and virtually nonexistent depending on who's asking and in what context. Notably, I heard that the Canadian conservative Party has used HM's authority in the 1980s (IIRC after the 1982 Canada Act) to ram through legislation without a vote.

Right, well there are probably some states like that, then. Newfoundland comes to mind because as a colony (in both OTL and TTL) there were extremely tight restrictions on settling there. It makes a lot of sense for it to have something just like what you described, namely a body of treaties that reserves it the right to keep people away. No others come to mind immediately, but maybe there are others.

The Indian states, and some of the Métis states, were understandably wary of outsiders coming in to eat up all their land and drive them away. On the other hand, so much of their difficulty was demographic: the Whites simply outnumbered the Indians and were thus able to overpower them in many cases. So the Indian proto-states were more than happy to accept newcomers on their own terms, since more people would make them stronger. This legacy today looks like a relatively long citizenship process to ensure loyalty, and some restrictions on out-of-staters' ability to buy land.

... Actually, land ownership in the ASB is an incredibly complex topic that I've only hinted at and which I'm not qualified to say much about until I've done a lot more reading. Suffice it to say that there is a lot more to it than just public vs. private ownership. There are various forms of communal and joint ownership, there is a separation in some places between ownership and usage rights, there are feudal vestiges in some odd corners.
 
Right, well there are probably some states like that, then. Newfoundland comes to mind because as a colony (in both OTL and TTL) there were extremely tight restrictions on settling there. It makes a lot of sense for it to have something just like what you described, namely a body of treaties that reserves it the right to keep people away. No others come to mind immediately, but maybe there are others.

The Indian states, and some of the Métis states, were understandably wary of outsiders coming in to eat up all their land and drive them away. On the other hand, so much of their difficulty was demographic: the Whites simply outnumbered the Indians and were thus able to overpower them in many cases. So the Indian proto-states were more than happy to accept newcomers on their own terms, since more people would make them stronger. This legacy today looks like a relatively long citizenship process to ensure loyalty, and some restrictions on out-of-staters' ability to buy land.

... Actually, land ownership in the ASB is an incredibly complex topic that I've only hinted at and which I'm not qualified to say much about until I've done a lot more reading. Suffice it to say that there is a lot more to it than just public vs. private ownership. There are various forms of communal and joint ownership, there is a separation in some places between ownership and usage rights, there are feudal vestiges in some odd corners.

Some of the ideas I've had:

Right now, pretty much anybody can live, work, and be citizens in any state if they're allowed in the ASB at all. However, this was not always the case.

-Some Native states, early in their history and before significant white immigrants came in, mandated native ancestry for citizenship, so people living and working there that were not native could not vote until probably the early-mid 19th century or so.
-East Florida and a few other states with legal segregation had racial restrictions on immigration until 1971.
-During and for some time after the World War(s), individuals who had served in non-exempted foreign militaries could not immigrate to certain more pacifist-minded states, as the US did until ~1955
-Imperial citizens can freely travel to Christiana, with some restrictions, but prior to rapprochement in the 1980s and 90s, they were not allowed to live or work outside of Christiana unless they are ASB citizens or meet special requirements
-Individuals with criminal records may be denied citizenship in some states, depending on the nature and severity of the crime. This is an ongoing civil rights issue.
-States where much of the population do not speak either French or English, such as the Spanish states, may have once required people to speak a local language in order to be citizens.
-Monarchist states might have once required new citizens to pledge allegiance with the current Sovereign before being granted citizenship. This has been replaced with a declaration or pledge of "Alliance," where the prospective citizen promises not fealty but cordiality with the monarchy; in essence, someone from Massachusetts doesn't have to kneel and be the subject of a monarch, but declares himself a friend and it's all fine. This is sometimes the center of controversy when people espouse radical anti-monarchist ideologies and it's not clear whether they can be punished under state law.
 
I like that a lot, and hadn't considered the racial angle. Totally would be the case. And I love so much the details about the loyalty oaths to the monarchs.

I'd adjust the Indian rules, though. Being concerned about ancestry in OTL is much more a legacy of White policies toward the tribes, if I'm not mistaken. The tribes themselves had forms of fictive kinship and adoption. I would say that they required either real kinship or some form of adoption, but I agree with your timetable.
 
I like that a lot, and hadn't considered the racial angle. Totally would be the case. And I love so much the details about the loyalty oaths to the monarchs.

I'd adjust the Indian rules, though. Being concerned about ancestry in OTL is much more a legacy of White policies toward the tribes, if I'm not mistaken. The tribes themselves had forms of fictive kinship and adoption. I would say that they required either real kinship or some form of adoption, but I agree with your timetable.

It'd be interesting to see what native discrimination against whites in the naive states was/is like, so unlike OTL.
 
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