A New World Wreathed in Freedom - An Argentine Revolution TL

Your arguments thus far have been nothing but unconvicing "they couldn't OTL, so they can't ITTL" statements, and a dismissal of every change that has happened in the TL in favor of "somehow, despite a completely different history, Argentina will still end a politically instable and poor country". I'm heartily tired of such takes. They are harmful and don't allow for discussion if every argument is dismissed with a simple "didn't happen OTL so it doesn't matter". What are you doing in an alternate history forum if you believe that, in spite of butterflies, the world id gonna end up the same? Historical determinism is boring.
See? Reading comprehension is missing.


WHEN DID I SAY THEY WOULD BE A SHITHOLE LIKE OTL? Go on, fucking quote me I dare you.


I said it won't be the fucking third economy of the planet, is Canada a shithole? Is Germany? No? Because with you """"""""logic"""""""" they should, seeing as they aren't the third world's biggest economy.

Saying that the UP won't be a Great Power juuuuust after China and the US by the early twenty first century in no way means it'll be a shithole like OTL Argentina. Is it that hard to understand or do you guys need a graphic and a power point presentation? It's not historical fucking determinism, it's following the narrative of the TL which firmly has the UP as a second tier local power with a second tier (relatively) small economy which is tied to a sinking boat (because the European empires are going to go down one way or another) so by the early 21st century and assuming the fuckfest that happened to Argentina in OTL doesn't happen here the UP will be a firmly set secondary power with s nice, working, economy more or less like any country in Western Europe OTL. In what way is this like OTL's Argentina go on, fucking explain it.
 
See? Reading comprehension is missing.


WHEN DID I SAY THEY WOULD BE A SHITHOLE LIKE OTL? Go on, fucking quote me I dare you.


I said it won't be the fucking third economy of the planet, is Canada a shithole? Is Germany? No? Because with you """"""""logic"""""""" they should, seeing as they aren't the third world's biggest economy.

Saying that the UP won't be a Great Power juuuuust after China and the US by the early twenty first century in no way means it'll be a shithole like OTL Argentina. Is it that hard to understand or do you guys need a graphic and a power point presentation? It's not historical fucking determinism, it's following the narrative of the TL which firmly has the UP as a second tier local power with a second tier (relatively) small economy which is tied to a sinking boat (because the European empires are going to go down one way or another) so by the early 21st century and assuming the fuckfest that happened to Argentina in OTL doesn't happen here the UP will be a firmly set secondary power with s nice, working, economy more or less like any country in Western Europe OTL. In what way is this like OTL's Argentina go on, fucking explain it.
Frankly, there is no need to behave in an aggressive and condescending manner. I never said shithole nor did I claim you did. What I said is that you seem to believe Argentina could become an unstable and thus poor (or not as rich) country, which is not realistic taking into account what has happened in the TL. In a fundamental level, it can happen, but that's as likely as the US crashing and becoming a dictatorship.

Second, what most people here are arguing is that Argentina has the potential to go far beyond that, not that it necessarily will. And I agree, I think they have the potential. I personally belive they will end up not a mere regional power but a second tier world power. One factor many don't seem to see is that this stronger, wealthier Latin America will provide an ideal market if Europe collpases. What I criticize as determinism is the fact that you can't seem to consider the very possibility of thus happening.
 
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Frankly, there is no need to behave in an aggressive and condescending manner. I never said shithole nor did I claim you did. What I said is that you seem to believe Argentina could become an instable and thus poor (or not as rich) country, which is not realistic taking into account what has happened in the TL. In a fundamental level, it can happen, but that's as likely as the US crashing and becoming a dictatorship.

Second, what most people here are arguing is that Argentina has the potential to go far beyond that, not that it necessarily will. And I agree, I think they have the potential. I personally belive they will end up not a mere regional power but a second tier world power. One factor many don't seem to see is that this stronger, wealthier Latin America will provide an ideal market if Europe collpases. What I criticize as determinism is the fact that you can't seem to consider the very possibility of thus happening.
Ok, I'll assume you are trolling then. Because I cannot really fathom how you keep saying "dEtErMinIsM" and "yOu SaY uT'lL bE PooR" when I literally told you I do not, that I think the UP will be a well off locally relevant country like Canada but with a Western Europe GDP. If you somehow assume this means "unstable and poor" then we are done. It's a waste of time.
 
I have already explained it but it seems like I was talking to a wall. So from now on I'll refrain from wasting my time and talk about this subject with the author only.

End of the line, the UP is a second tier power with a little nice economy, not what you guys are selling it at. Wanks are boring.
??? You've essentially just said "Can't OTL, therefore can't TTL" over and over again.
 
Ok, I'll assume you are trolling then. Because I cannot really fathom how you keep saying "dEtErMinIsM" and "yOu SaY uT'lL bE PooR" when I literally told you I do not, that I think the UP will be a well off locally relevant country like Canada but with a Western Europe GDP. If you somehow assume this means "unstable and poor" then we are done. It's a waste of time.
If it has the averge GDP per capita of western europe (roughly 40000$) then it will have a GDP of 6 TRILLION!

If it has the GDP per capita of Canada, it will have a GDP of 6.9 TRILLION!

BOTH OF THOSE WOULD BE THE #3 ECONOMY

Also, repeating someones points in mismatched cap lock doesn't make them invalid. It just makes it look like you can't think of a counter argument.

All you've said is "they won't" and "they didn't OTL" - never an actual valid reason why not...
 
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??? You've essentially just said "Can't OTL, therefore can't TTL" over and over again.
Yes, to the points of "It has X therefore it is the US 2.0!!!"
If it has the averge GDP per capita of western europe (roughly 40000$) then it will have a GDP of 6 TRILLION!

If it has the GDP per capita of Canada, it will have a GDP of 6.9 TRILLION!

BOTH OF THOSE WOULD BE THE #3 ECONOMY

Also, repeating someones points in mismatched cap lock doesn't make them invalid. It just makes it look like you can't think of a counter argument.

All you've said is "they won't" and "they didn't OTL" - never an actual valid reason why not...
REAL GDP, REAL. We never talked about per capita, it was always about the REAL GPD.

And it does when said points are a strawman.


But whatever, I know that how the average reader is. The idea that "better off timeline" to you means "Golden Tl, no mistakes and meta-gaming of the system to achieve maximum prosperity."

I don't get how it is so crazy that the UP could have a GPD of around 1-2 trillion and a quality of life like Western Europe's (this is literally above the European OTL average btw). No no, it has to be a world power or else it's "historical determinism".
 
Yes, to the points of "It has X therefore it is the US 2.0!!!"

REAL GDP, REAL. We never talked about per capita, it was always about the REAL GPD.

And it does when said points are a strawman.


But whatever, I know that how the average reader is. The idea that "better off timeline" to you means "Golden Tl, no mistakes and meta-gaming of the system to achieve maximum prosperity."

I don't get how it is so crazy that the UP could have a GPD of around 1-2 trillion and a quality of life like Western Europe's (this is literally above the European OTL average btw). No no, it has to be a world power or else it's "historical determinism".
You can't lump Europe as one. Eastern vs Western standards of living are very different.

The 20000$ gdp per capita which the wikibox said would be Eastern European. 35000-40000$ which I was advocating for would be Western European and would give you the quality of life you are thinking of.
 

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See? Reading comprehension is missing.


WHEN DID I SAY THEY WOULD BE A SHITHOLE LIKE OTL? Go on, fucking quote me I dare you.


I said it won't be the fucking third economy of the planet, is Canada a shithole? Is Germany? No? Because with you """"""""logic"""""""" they should, seeing as they aren't the third world's biggest economy.

Saying that the UP won't be a Great Power juuuuust after China and the US by the early twenty first century in no way means it'll be a shithole like OTL Argentina. Is it that hard to understand or do you guys need a graphic and a power point presentation? It's not historical fucking determinism, it's following the narrative of the TL which firmly has the UP as a second tier local power with a second tier (relatively) small economy which is tied to a sinking boat (because the European empires are going to go down one way or another) so by the early 21st century and assuming the fuckfest that happened to Argentina in OTL doesn't happen here the UP will be a firmly set secondary power with s nice, working, economy more or less like any country in Western Europe OTL. In what way is this like OTL's Argentina go on, fucking explain it.
Step it down before you have a stroke.
 
Thoughts on the State of the World in 1910s
A few thoughts to consider:
- The world is currently in a pre-WW1 state, global empires and all; a WW1 like event may be inevitable, but I am not really at a point in my worldbuilding where I can really plot it out. It's also not impossible that WW1 doesn't happen, being replaced by a bizarro pre-WW2 "cold war" between the massive empires of Britain, France, Germany, Russia and the United States.
- With that in mind, let's imagine a world that is clearly dominated by 5 global superpowers; the United Provinces is squarely outside of that group, but sits near the top of next tier. In Victoria 2 terms, there are 5 Great Powers, and the United Provinces are at or near the top of the pack of the Secondary Powers.
- There are positive feedback loops throughout Latin America, not just in the United Provinces: Colombia and Brazil are also regional powers, the former oriented towards the Caribbean and the latter focused on consolidating effective control of the interior and the Amazon while maintaining a formidable Atlantic fleet.
- The Panama Canal has been butterflied away! Or rather, OTL's series of events that lead to OTL's Panama Canal never happen ITTL. It's still possible that a canal in Panama is considered, but it's also possible that a more stable Central America means that the technically "simpler" Nicaragua Canal is built instead.
- Once I remembered the sudden change in the construction of a canal between the Atlantic and the Pacific, I was further reminded that both Platine and Chilean shipping would be effected by any such canal.

I'll edit this post as I think of more details about the state of the world in the 1910s, and I'll also gladly incorporate reader suggestions.
 
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Changing the recent discussion topic.... I was thinking about as a larger than the OTL Black population and that on the border provinces, at least, most of them 'd have had formed in large the base of these provinces, rural middle classes. Also, given that most of their ancestors would have been refugees from the then Brazilian Imperial Slavocracy...
Also, that it's possible, that it would have as one of its consequences the bigger, more widespread and earlier than OTL presence and likely growth of the so denominated Afro-Brazilians religions.
Also, if well, I think (in base to OTL) that, at least initially, it and their believers 'd be ignored for the mainstream politics-religious establishment.
But I think that it might change with its growth and with either the likely rural immigration to the cities and/or the Urban lowers class growth. And it 'd be noticed and again, possibly, these syncretic religions and its believers (around to the twentieth turn of the century), 'd have to face at least prejudice and discrimination if not outright persecution, at least, in the more conservative regions...
 
Changing the recent discussion topic.... I was thinking about as a larger than the OTL Black population and that on the border provinces, at least, most of them 'd have had formed in large the base of these provinces, rural middle classes. Also, given that most of their ancestors would have been refugees from the then Brazilian Imperial Slavocracy...
Also, that it's possible, that it would have as one of its consequences the bigger, more widespread and earlier than OTL presence and likely growth of the so denominated Afro-Brazilians religions.
Also, if well, I think (in base to OTL) that, at least initially, it and their believers 'd be ignored for the mainstream politics-religious establishment.
But I think that it might change with its growth and with either the likely rural immigration to the cities and/or the Urban lowers class growth. And it 'd be noticed and again, possibly, these syncretic religions and its believers (around to the twentieth turn of the century), 'd have to face at least prejudice and discrimination if not outright persecution, at least, in the more conservative regions...
I'm intrigued by the idea of slave folk religions surviving in the Afro-Platine population, which I've always envisioned making up a visible minority of the yeomen of the Littoral provinces in addition to the urban Afro-Platine populations of Montevideo and Buenos Aires. I can picture it spreading from the countryside to the cities in the same way the modern-day folk hero Gauchito Gil spread from the Mesopotamia to the Buenos Aires metro area. There would also be Guaraní syncretism in the mix, giving rural northeastern UP a slightly pagan feel to it.

I imagine the Catholic/Conservative powerbase in the UP is going to be in the *Argentine interior along the Córdoba-Tucumán-Salta axis, which would also coincidentally be the whitest provinces as well.
 
- With that in mind, let's imagine a world that is clearly dominated by 5 global superpowers; the United Provinces is squarely outside of that group, but sits near the top of next tier. In Victoria 2 terms, there are 5 Great Powers, and the United Provinces are at or near the top of the pack of the Secondary Powers.
- There are positive feedback loops throughout Latin America, not just in the United Provinces: Colombia and Brazil are also regional powers, the former oriented towards the Caribbean and the latter focused on consolidating effective control of the interior and the Amazon while maintaining a formidable Atlantic fleet.
- The Panama Canal has been butterflied away! Or rather, OTL's series of events that lead to OTL's Panama Canal never happen ITTL. It's still possible that a canal in Panama is considered, but it's also possible that a more stable Central America means that the technically "simpler" Nicaragua Canal is built instead.
I think this approach to the relative strength of the countries is perfect and very realistic. Regarding the Panama Canal, proposals surrounding it had been hatched as early as the OTL Independence Wars. I think even Bolivar was toying with something like that. So I think it's a given that Colombia will push for the canal, either on her own or with the help of an European power. Which means a "canal race" in Central America that could end with two different trans-oceanic canals.
 
Well, first should be noted that even if grouping them under the label/categorization of Afro-Brazilian Religions that even from similar origins that their beliefs and cults and its syncretic level are very different between them...
Also, should be noted that my speculation is based upon the OTL spread from the Uruguayan-Brazilian border (and guess that even if perhaps to a lesser extent,from the Argentine-Brazilian border, too) to the South and its mixing with surviving Afro-Uruguayan folk religious and music traditions as the Candombe and their own religious syncretism traditions...
I imagine the Catholic/Conservative powerbase in the UP is going to be in the *Argentine interior along the Córdoba-Tucumán-Salta axis, which would also coincidentally be the whitest provinces as well.
I'd include in the above ,listed, to the TTL bigger river cities of Rosario, Paysandú, Concordia and/or Salto...
 
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I'd include in the above ,listed, to the TTL bigger river cities of Rosario, Paysandú, Concordia and/or Salto...
I've pictured their influence diluted somewhat by the Federalist/Artiguist influence in the countryside, but yes, as the rural vote swung to the Conservative Party, it swung in those cities too.

I've been playing around with spreadsheets for this TL, and I wanted to share with y'all a pie chart of the United Provinces' demographic breakdown. They are based on the OTL breakdown, using 1961 as a reference primarily because it was the earliest data I could get this kind of breakdown for. Comments and questions welcome!

Population of the United Provinces.png
 
A bit surprised that that the Amazonas region/province has, compared to Paraguay and in a single basis for each one of TLL Cochabamba and Cuyo (OTL, Bolivia) a very important proportion of the UP's population.. Also, seems that aren't accounted the population percentage from both the Western and the Eastern (Oriental) Misiones... Perhaps, their TTL population 'd be too small to be accounted/represented?
 
A bit surprised that that the Amazonas region/province has, compared to Paraguay and in a single basis for each one of TLL Cochabamba and Cuyo (OTL, Bolivia) a very important proportion of the UP's population.. Also, seems that aren't accounted the population percentage from both the Western and the Eastern (Oriental) Misiones... Perhaps, their TTL population 'd be too small to be accounted/represented?
Amazonas is primarily because of Santa Cruz; these numbers are very much the roughest possible draft of this data, a straight plugging-in of OTL data, and I'm sharing it to come up with TTL differences that should show up in the data. Collao for example is under-represented, and I'm considering a few different options to correct this: one is to combine the provinces of Cochabamba and Potosí with it, ultimately giving the province based out of Chuquisaca a more respectable 16.7% of the population (and more in keeping with the original "these provinces shall be indivisible" premise). I should probably adjust some of that Amazonas population to Paraguay; how about the Uruguayan portion?

Misiones is another province that I should adjust upwards; I had originally assumed that it would have been incorporated into the province of Misiones that already existed (and had a Guaraní governor at the time it was annexed), but 1.2% of the population seems a bit meager for a province that's doubled in size.
 
how about the Uruguayan portion?
Well, I think that seems a bit lower, perhaps the proportion could be more near to Bs. As and/or more similar to their Litoral counterparts... Given that TTL, 'd has had a more stable an peaceful mid-to late nineteenth century, with what'd have be benefited from a fairer land distribution.
Also, that aside that TTL. 'd be integrated into a greater and federal UP along with a more developed river and oceanic ports; I'd guess that 'd be able to attract a great many amount of immigrants (both internal and foreign) than OTL...

Misiones is another province that I should adjust upwards; I had originally assumed that it would have been incorporated into the province of Misiones that already existed (and had a Guaraní governor at the time it was annexed), but 1.2% of the population seems a bit meager for a province that's doubled in size.
Ok. Well, the final decision is up to you. But, IMO, I don't think that they 'd be merged in one single province, because even letting aside their natural border and even if they 'd have and share a common ethnic base...
ITTL the Misiones Orientales (ones that TTL, 'd be a bit bigger than OTL) would have, through its History have had formed its own regional/provincial identity... That was the main reason that at the time, up thread that after was liberated, that, I suggested its separation from TTL Oriental/Uruguay.
 
I agree regarding Uruguay, though I'm not sure if they would be similar to BsAs. I think the greatest (coastal" population should be around the River Plate and the Parana due to the situation being similar to OTL's Argentina but without BsAs shuffling the deck in its favour.
 
regarding Uruguay, though I'm not sure if they would be similar to BsAs
I think that should be noted that my estimation 'd place its possible population proportion in a level 'near' to the Bs. As., and not that it 'd be similar... Things that at least for me, they, are a bit different...
I think the greatest (coastal" population should be around the River Plate and the Parana due to the situation being similar to OTL's Argentina but without BsAs shuffling the deck in its favour.
I tend to agree, though that not only by the above mentioned ITTL different capital and lesser Bs. As. influence but for the increased intra/interregional river commerce, in relation to OTL, and mainly, as in the already mentioned Uruguayan case, would be caused by an fairer land ownership/distribution...
 
Would the US break up ITTL?
So, two things have been brought to my attention in private conversations I've had about this TL, one minor and one quite major: the first is that I've been told that the absence of a Socialist party, as in, a distinct and separate doctrinaire socialist party, is implausible by the time of the 1900s, so that's being retconned as I retool some of the election results from that period; the second, and major, issue is the fallout of the American defeat in the Texan war: the consensus seems to be that, especially as the Whigs ride the war's unpopularity to a more decisive victory in 1848, an earlier civil war is likely and the earlier it happens, the more likely it is that the South might even "win" (meaning winning in becoming an independent nation that preserves and attempts to expand slavery further).

But given the impact of such an outcome on the world in general, and considering how helpful y'all have been as commenters and contributors, I'd like to put the discussion to you: at the moment, the only thing I've decided are certain to happen is that the Whigs win in 1848, and that they do so with a candidate other than Zachary Taylor (given his nomination was a result of his command in the triumphant Mexican-American war). The problem is that either of the two likely Whig candidates - Henry Clay or Daniel Webster - would die before the end of the 1848-1852 term ended IOTL, so the choice of VP becomes very important. The fact that the US fails to obtain the Southwest has even further ramifications, since it makes a Compromise of 1850 essentially impossible: there simply isn't enough territory to make enough potential slave states to keep the balance between the two for much longer unless they attempt to expand to Cuba or the Caribbean, but by that point military expansionism simply becomes another dimension of the slave power, and the result is more intractable opposition to expansionism as it becomes politically intertwined with the cause of slavery.

I'll be honest, I'm hesitant to have the US split up long-term; it's a big deviation from OTL, and it's not necessary strictly speaking from a story-telling point of view. But I admit that it's plausible, though I'm also convinced that the alt-CSA would be a failed state in the long run, with some of its states likely rejoining the USA in the long-run (I'm imagining the Western border states and possibly Louisiana, with Virginia also being a long-shot reincorporation at some point) and others simply striking out on their own due to internal differences. At any rate, I'm interested in discussing these possibilities with all of you and seeing what you guys think.
 
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