I'd suspect Cranberries would also be used in time as well - very healthy fruit, good for making wine, and plentiful in the region (was used extensivey in OTL as well)
The Good Berry: A Wild Rice Domestication TL
- Thread starter PeterEzgo
- Start date
I'd suspect Cranberries would also be used in time as well - very healthy fruit, good for making wine, and plentiful in the region (was used extensivey in OTL as well)
Anything with sugar in it can be made into alcohol. And, given enough time , will be. I'm sure every kind of berry and fruit will be made into alcoholic beverages.
I think we're at least getting manoomin alcohol, native grape alcohol and berry alcohol. I'll not be surprised if we get manoomin alcohol infused with fruit juices.
Even though it is technically possible for them to produce a rudimentary pot still from clay and wood, why would they? It took an awfully long time for the technology to develop in the old world from its small batch alchemical uses to producing hard liquor for general consumption.
I suppose a form of "freeze distilling" could develop easily in the northern climes, though
Not before Europeans arrive in large numbers circa 1500. (Which, at the rate we are currently progressing, will happen in an update sometime in the mid-2030s lol)
Alcohol =/= distillation. Alcohol fermentation, which is all that is used when making beer and wine, is basically food that has rotted in a specific way. You can do it accidentally. (I got pretty lit at 12 years old from some improperly canned pears. That is super dangerous and I do not recommend it.) Basically any agricultural society will have some sort of beer or wine because they will be storing food. Some of them will store food incorrectly in just the right way and viola, alcohol.
Distilled liquor, like whiskey, takes more purpose and preparation. Alcohol has a lower boiling point than water. If you boil an alcohol solution then condense the vapor, the solution from the condensed vapor has a higher alcohol content. Boiling it is easy, condensing the vapor without loosing too much is hard. It is something that can be stumbled on accidentally but you'd have to have a lot of people messing around with alcoholic beverages to do it.
In the Mishigami, they will have beers made from manoomin rice, sunflower seeds, corn when it makes its way up from Mesoamerica, and any other starches they get their hands on. They will have wine made from grapes, berries, and other fruit. Alcohol will be too rare and too expensive in the Mishigami for them to stumble on distillation, IMO.
I really hadn't planned to talk too much about alcohol in this TL, tbh. Its funny how many people are interested in such a minor thing.
Last edited:
Ah yeah that's true. I meant it as 'yeah alcohol prob comes from these sources'.
Tbf I think we'd get wines that are at most around 10% alcohol content, which I think is possible without distillation. It's still quite serious business.
It's more that when ppl talk about alt civs we talk about various aspects and one of the aspects is alcohol.
I caught up with this awesome TL the other day, love me a native American TL. Haven't read much of the discussion in between posts as I'm not in the habit of doing that when catching up on the TL, so apologies if my comments are redundant. However, one of the main things that strikes me, is that North American colonisation should be a lot more difficult with stronger native presence in the region. You seem to be sowing the seeds for a metallurgical society, too, meaning those natives could very well wield iron weapons and do some real damage to European colonists. Now, the thing I'm praying for, is that enough of the changes and innovations diffuse through the American continents to benefit the other native societies - primarily, of course, my favourite, the Incas 
Although I shouldn't be talking about the Incas as if they are guaranteed to pop up - they are anything but, given that the changes introduced to even a region as remote as the Great Lakes region are profound enough to fundamentally shift the history of all of the peoples of the American continents. I could still see a pseudo-Inca society pop up , in which case I will be rooting for them
I suppose any encounter between Europe and the American Indians would still be lopsided given that it will be difficult to close the tech gap sufficiently and I certainly don't see any Carribean island holding up particularly well once faced with European "interest". Similarly, the Mesoamerican peoples will be in for a tough time, as will the "Brazilian" native groups, the former due to the immediate attention of the Europeans, the latter due to their isolation from the rest of America.
I don't imagine we'll reach the point where such considerations will become relevant until much further down the road in the TL (unless the author decides to adopt a non-linear or timeskip narrative). Regardless, I find it worthwhile to fantasise about how profoundly these changes could affect the "far future" (from the POV of the POD).
The writing is also phenomenal, I am truly captivated. One criticism I have to offer, is that @PeterEzgo sometimes writes about cultural phenomena in a relatively absolute fashion. Primarily, it is the system of clans that appears too monolithic to me. I find it hard to believe that this institution survives relatively unhindered into the modern era. Of course, one can argue that the Menominee are in a China-like situation where they inhabit the best land around with few competitors worth their salt available to challenge them, thus leading to millenia of cultural supremacy; but even then, China was conquered multiple times and went through fundamental cultural changes throughout the millenia. I'm curious what your opinion is on this. It's quite a small gripe and should not detract from the fact that I am a fan of how the TL has handled most anything else.
Although I shouldn't be talking about the Incas as if they are guaranteed to pop up - they are anything but, given that the changes introduced to even a region as remote as the Great Lakes region are profound enough to fundamentally shift the history of all of the peoples of the American continents. I could still see a pseudo-Inca society pop up , in which case I will be rooting for themI suppose any encounter between Europe and the American Indians would still be lopsided given that it will be difficult to close the tech gap sufficiently and I certainly don't see any Carribean island holding up particularly well once faced with European "interest". Similarly, the Mesoamerican peoples will be in for a tough time, as will the "Brazilian" native groups, the former due to the immediate attention of the Europeans, the latter due to their isolation from the rest of America.
I don't imagine we'll reach the point where such considerations will become relevant until much further down the road in the TL (unless the author decides to adopt a non-linear or timeskip narrative). Regardless, I find it worthwhile to fantasise about how profoundly these changes could affect the "far future" (from the POV of the POD).
The writing is also phenomenal, I am truly captivated. One criticism I have to offer, is that @PeterEzgo sometimes writes about cultural phenomena in a relatively absolute fashion. Primarily, it is the system of clans that appears too monolithic to me. I find it hard to believe that this institution survives relatively unhindered into the modern era. Of course, one can argue that the Menominee are in a China-like situation where they inhabit the best land around with few competitors worth their salt available to challenge them, thus leading to millenia of cultural supremacy; but even then, China was conquered multiple times and went through fundamental cultural changes throughout the millenia. I'm curious what your opinion is on this. It's quite a small gripe and should not detract from the fact that I am a fan of how the TL has handled most anything else.
I mean I agree that this will cause massive changes in the America's, particularly north America, but personally i disagree with the line of thought that a POD like this instantly affects the whole world and resets the dice.
In particular here, while I imagine that manoomin will spread across north America i think it would have a harder time competing with the already established maize agriculture further south, even assuming manoomin can adapt to the warmer climes of mesoamerica. The subtropics of louisiana and north Florida are one thing, the actual tropics another
I didn't mean to imply that it affects the whole world but rather that it affects of all of the Americas - or at the very least all of the Americas that are at least somewhat connected. The "Good Berry" was domesticated in 4000 BC that allows for more than 5000 years of developments until European contact. Now, I'm aware that in all likelihood the existence of another staple somewhere in the Northeast of America won't have immediate and drastic consequences for the rest of the Americas (although it could, certainly if we see iron metallurgy). However, I maintain that 5000 years is a VERY long time and history is often a game of luck, so that at the point of European contact we may see recognisable peoples but not the exact same, maybe it's the Purepecha who are the top dogs instead of the Aztecs e.g. Basically what I'm saying is that we may not meet the Incas but instead we could see a minutely warped version of them or an entirely different version even or even just their neighbouring tribe who got a lucky break instead of the Incas. All of that just because of very slight shifts in the historical context caused by the existence of a true civilisation centred around the Great Lakes.
One should not disregard the factor of chance in history, especially not when looking at millenia of history. In such a wide timeframe geography is pretty much the only factor that is stable all other factors, be they cultural or technological, could and may very well be changed (within reason of course). The problem with the butterfly effect on this forum imo is the degree to which it is employed. Sometimes there is a PoD in the renaissance but seemingly the rest of history occurs the same; similarly there sometimes is a PoD and over night everything appears to have fundamentally changed. Both of these approaches are improper I reckon, but that does not change that some measure of butterfly effect still needs to be factored in. In the context of this TL for example, I would be disappointed if two planes flew into the World trade center on 11th September, 2001, whereas I wouldn't be surprised if Luther's theses are still nailed onto the church door at pretty much the same time, just because of how little deviation should have happened in Europe between 1492 and 1517 compared to the probably vast changes happening between 1492 and 2001 what with the whole change of European colonialism. I hope I'm making sense, let me know if not
Edit: Of course, should the OP decide to use OTL native american nations fulfilling similar roles in their TL as they did IOTL, then that is an understandable narrative tool to provide us with recognisable names. To give another example, if there is a civilisation in the Andes doing what the Incas did IOTL then there is little narrative reason to give them a new name. It all depends on the authors feeling of what they deem appropriate.
Last edited:
Thank you very much. I have worked hard on this TL and I appreciate the compliment.
This is something I have thought about a lot and decided against. I prefer to read history in detail and in order. This allows for as much context as possible so that I can understand not only what happened but why. I think the same thing applies to this TL. As much as I joke about how slow it is going, I'd rather go slowly and cover everything I want rather than skip around and have to retcon half of what I said. This TL is intended to be telescopic, starting at the local level and eventually covering developments across the world. If I keep writing slow and steady every day, I will get to all the things I want to talk about eventually.
In the context of this TL for example, I would be disappointed if two planes flew into the World trade center on 11th September, 2001, whereas I wouldn't be surprised if Luther's theses are still nailed onto the church door at pretty much the same time, just because of how little deviation should have happened in Europe between 1492 and 1517 compared to the probably vast changes happening between 1492 and 2001 what with the whole change of European colonialism. I hope I'm making sense, let me know if not
I tend to agree. The problem is that the POD for this TL should logically effect the whole world. The addition of tens of millions of people, and the transformation of thousands of miles of forest into farmland should have climate effects that span the globe. Imagine how much history would change if the weather was just a little different. To give just one example, the Battle of Frigidus might have turned out very differently if the wind was blowing from another direction or not as strongly.
I've decided to ignore those effects and opted for a much more simplified approach. Butterflies will spread out as people affected by the POD interact with other people. Right now, this means that the effects are mostly restricted to eastern north america with a few imperceptible changes reaching as far as mesoamerica. Soon, it will mean major changes for the entire Americas. And changes to Europe will begin in the year 1000 or so , not 1492.
First, recall what I wrote in chapter 7 when discussing the clan system:
And
The clan system is not a monolith. It is an obstacle. It can be overcome but it takes time and effort (and luck!) to do so. Clans will survive to the modern day but for many people they will function as little more than a surname. You would not expect a person named "Cody Painter" to be a house painter. They could be, but it's not a requirement. Similarly, modern beaver clan members would not necessarily be involved in the copper trade.
However, that will not mean that it won't matter. The system is based, in part, on the Caste system ( or more properly, the concepts of varna and jati) in India. That has been around for thousands of years (maybe as far back as the Indus Valley civilization) and continues to be important to the modern day. Hell, tech companies in California have been sued for discrimination based on caste. That's thousands of miles away from India and in as modern a context as possible, yet caste differences still matter.
Similarly, ITTL clans will matter in the modern day. They're social role will change, sometimes radically, but they will continue to matter.
Last edited:
Absolutely understandable and honestly makes the journey of reading your work more worthwhile, too, in my opinion.
Of course, I somehow fully forgot about Erik the Red's journey which will assuredly go rather differently. But overall I think your approach is a very sane one, I don't envy someone trying to model weather systems modified by clearing some forest 4000 years ago
Alright, looks like it turned out that it was my understanding that was too absolute. I recognised the similarity to the caste system but understood it to be a more rigid form of that. The way you explained it now (and apologies for making you repeat it due to my lack of reading comprehension), it makes much more sense to me and makes for a nice cultural leitmotif through the millenia always somewhat adapting to the necessities of the era, I imagine.
It shows! The scope of your TL reminds me of A Horn of Bronze--The Shaping of Fusania and Beyond (a compliment by all means, I consider Arkenfolm to pretty much be the board's authority on Native American matters).
Chapter 12: A Lie Agreed Upon
Chapter 12: A Lie Agreed Upon
The first historical records in the Mishigami began not long after the development of writing.
We have already discussed Kisewa poles, which were used to create solar calendars. Similar poles were also placed in front of the longhouses of the rich and were used as heraldry. When used in this way, they were called metekwa. This word was also used for other depictions of heraldry (shirts, shields, etc). Europeans called them doodem poles because they often depicted the doodem animal of the longhouse.
Most doodem poles would include what is known as a winter count, or biboonagad. In the pre-classical period, it consisted of one pictograph for each year, signifying the most important event of that year. While a winter count could be drawn on animal hide or birch bark, the only surviving examples are carved into the stone poles of metekwa.
Mowin syllabics changed biboonagad. Instead of a single pictograph, each year might be given a single line or block to explain the most important event or events of the year.
There were two ways to count years: regnal counting and event counting. So a particular year might be referred to as the “the fifth year of the reign of X” or “the year the stars fell”, as an example. Sometimes both were used interchangeably.
Most of these histories are of little interest outside of their immediate area. There are carvings that include nothing other than the election of Sagamos and Ogimaa, and high profile marriages, births, and deaths. These are informative for local historians but not exciting enough to go into further detail here. Some of the inscriptions are more colorful, however.
Let’s give some examples:
“In the ninth year of his reign, Odeserundiye, LORD OF THE UNIVERSE[2], marched with ONE MILLION zhimaaganish warriors. He met the cowardly Omagakiins, Master of Minesing[3], and FIFTY THOUSAND warriors at Pakatekweyang. Odeserundiye used his club as a LIGHTNING BOLT, killing 50 warriors with every swing. Odeserundiye vanquished Omagakiins and made him KNEEL. Pakateweyang was given to Odeserundiye UNTIL THE END OF TIME.”- translation from Miyamee [Detroit, MI] metekwa
“In the fifth year of his reign, Omagakiins, LORD OF THE UNIVERSE, marched with FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND warriors against the ONE MILLION warriors of Odeserundiye, Master of Miyamee. Odeserundiye stayed behind his soldiers. His underlings used TREACHERY to defeat Omagakiins. They STOLE Pakatekweyang.” – translation from Minesing [Barrie, ON] metekwa
Needless to say, these inscriptions are less than completely accurate. Estimates for the total population of the city of Miyamee in this period are 60’000 on the high end and Minesing even less. The troop numbers are ridiculous. But both inscriptions agree that a battle took place, the Miyamee forces outnumbered the Minesing forces, Omagakiins was defeated, and that Pakatekweyang [London, ON] was placed under the sovereignty of Miyamee.
Different inscriptions often give different stories. Trying to determine the truth from the conflicting accounts is what history is all about. We have inscriptions from Miyamee, Minesing, Pakatekweyang and other nearby settlements. This allows us a more complete view of the battle that was described above. We also have inscriptions from before and after the battle to place it into context.
In this case, Miyamee and Minesing were both attempting to dominate the trade routes through the Odawa Peninsula [Ontario Peninsula]. Pakatekweyang was a key stronghold on one of these routes. Minesing had forced its submission some years earlier. Miyamee was rising in power at this time. Their competing interests led to a clash.
Considering what we know about the status of Sagamos being dependent on their physical health and fearlessness in battle, Odeserundiye must have led the attack on Pakatekweyang. He could not have been a coward who hid behind his subordinates. If he was, he would have been deposed by one of those subordinates.
Let’s see what the inscription at Pakatekweyang had to say about the battle:
“In the ninth year of his reign, Odeserundiye, LORD OF THE UNIVERSE, freed Pakatekweyang from the tyrant Omagakiins of Minesing. In their first battle, Odeserundiye … (damaged section; possibly includes the pictogram for “river”)… the maze was taken. Omagakiins KNELT. Pakatekweyang agreed to send four barges of rice, two canoes of antlers... (more damage)” translation from Pakatekweyang metekwa.
Now, we can begin making educated guesses about what really happened. Odeserundiye and the Miyamee forces met the Minesing forces along the Eshkani (“antler”) river [Thames River, ON]. This terrain would have been favorable for a battle and this would have followed the pattern of warfare in the classical period. The Miyamee army was victorious at this first battle but Odeserundiye was injured.
The Miyamee army surrounded Pakatekweyang while Odeserundiye appointed a subordinate (whose name is unknown) to lead the attack. The Miyamee army was again victorious, taking the maze of Pakatekweyang. Omagakiins submitted to either Odesrundiye or his subordinate and was allowed to withdraw from the city. After that Pakatekweyang sent tribute to Miyamee.
These inscriptions also allow us to know that the fifth regnal year of Omagakiins is also the ninth regnal year of Odeserundiye. Any other inscriptions that speak of regnal years of Omagakiins and Odeserundiye can be dated relative to each other.
With thousands of extant inscriptions, and many hours spent by grad students translating them, a timeline of events across the whole Mishigami can be built. Particularly important are eclipses, which are recorded by many inscriptions. The exact dates of eclipses can be calculated by present day historians to synchronize the records with our modern calendar.
More incidental details can also offer unexpected insights. The name “Odeserundiye” is of Ongweh’onweh [Iroquois] origin. Other inscriptions state that the previous Sagamos married six women, one of whom has an Ongweh’onweh name as well. There are no surviving inscriptions about any offspring he might have had. It is possible that Odeserundiye was the son of the previous Sagamos and that Ongweh’onweh woman. Combined with many other similar inscriptions, it suggests that marriage between ethnic groups was common (at least among the elite) and that the mixed offspring were able to rise into positions of power.
This is just one of many stories that it is possible to learn and speculate about with these inscriptions.
Next time, we will discuss the religion of the Mishigami.
[1] Taken from: https://blog.hellobc.com/every-totem-pole-tells-story/
[2] Gakina Sagamos literally “All Lord”. Words in all caps were carved with a box around them in the original inscription.
[3] Minesing Ogimaa, implying that he is lesser than a Sagamos
[4] Taken from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_count#/media/File:Anko_Kiowa_Calendar.jpg
Comments? Questions?
Last edited:
I'm not surprised - I seem to remember some of the Plains Indian groups routinely kidnapping women from other ethnic groups - possibly to inject fresh genes into the mix, so to speak - and the mixed offspring were treated same as anyone else of the father's tribe (also: some women resented their fate, but some didn't and voluntarily stayed with the supposed "captors")
Chapter 13: The Way of the Heart
Chapter 13: The Way of the Heart
Symbol of Manidoo, the Great Spirit
Symbol of Manidoo, the Great Spirit
Religion may be as old as humanity itself. The impulse to explain the unexplainable is innate to human beings.
The traditional religion of the Mishigami, called Midewiwin (“The Way of the Heart”), is often simplistically referred to as polytheistic. This is not entirely wrong but it fails to capture the complexities and contradictions that define Midewiwin.
There is a single overarching god, called Gichi-Manidoo (“Great Spirit”). Although Manidoo has no gender, for simplicity I will follow convention and refer to Manidoo with male pronouns when using English.
Manidoo is the Creator, the Supreme Being, the Uncaused Cause, the Unchanging Truth, the Arbiter of Life and Death, the Great Spirit, the One, the Many, and All That Which Is. He is all knowing, all powerful, and all encompassing. He is winter, summer, spring, and autumn. He is rain and snow and sunshine. He is good. He is evil. He is the burning hot. He is the bitter cold. He is.
Manidoo has many aspects, called Ojichaag. Ojichaag have been likened to lesser deities, and demigods. They include great ancestors, and the spirits of animals and places. There was no single pantheon but many local and regional sets of Ojichaag were favored by the different people at different times.
How many Ojichaag are there? Count all the men and women in the world. Count all the beasts, plants, and crawling things in the world. Then count all the rocks, hills, and mountains in the world. If you did that, you would still not have reached the number of Ojichaag. Or, so the saying goes.
Each Ojichaag represents a different part of the personality of Manidoo. Shingebiss the duck is a symbol of fortitude and perseverance. Gaagaagi the raven is a symbol of truth. Nanabozho the rabbit is a trickster. And so on.
Every person would be expected to worship one or more Ojichaag. Many would venerate an Ojichaag as the sacred ancestor of their doodem. Others might appeal to an Ojichaag who favored the area they lived in. Perhaps some aspect of their life or work might be best served by worshipping a particular Ojichaag.
One of the most common ways to appeal to an Ojichaag was through prayer. Spoken prayers would have been the most common but they vanish with the wind. Other types of prayers have been preserved. A common practice was to take a small piece of clay, carve a few glyphs or pictographs on it representing your prayer and cast it into the fire. Caches of such prayers have been found in excavated temples. They preserve a thousand different struggles, tragedies, and every day worries. People pray to be healed, to marry well, to become pregnant, for friends and family to return unharmed, and many other things. The most common prayer, scrawled in crude glyphs as no priest would agree to write it, is “Let me be free”, written by slaves.
Only Mide were allowed to make appeals and offerings directly to Manidoo as a whole. Everyone else should only appeal to Ojichaag and only their own Ojichaag. Praying to the wrong Ojichaag could be seen as a betrayal and might incur spiritual or temporal wrath. The physical manifestation of Manidoo was said to dwell on Mackinaw Island.
The most popular Ojichaag of the classical period was Mishipeshu, the Great Lynx. Mishipeshu is the patron of the Peshu doodem or Lynx Clan. He is also the protector of sailors, particularly those on Lake Gichigami [Lake Superior] and the other Great Lakes. He controlled the water and the weather. Sailors offered prayers and sacrifices in order to soothe his savage temper and fickle nature. He is said to live in a cave at the bottom of Lake Gichigami. He was attended by the Mishi-ginebig, the Horned Serpents.
Binesi, most commonly translated as thunderbirds, are masters of the air. As they fly through the air, their wings create the sound of thunder. They can use lightning against their enemies. They live in opposition to Mishipeshu and are eternally at war with him. They control the wind as he does the water. They delight in fighting both each other and Mishipeshu. When the wind is swirling, the Thunderbirds are said to be quarrelling. They punish humans who have broken moral rules. They live at the end of the four directions, where a great mountain lies. They were the second most popular Ojichaag of the classical period.
Nanabozho is a trickster rabbit. Amongst many other tales, he is said to have named all the plants and animals. He shape-shifts to play tricks, start trouble, and fool people. He is said to have whispered in the ear of Medweginoonind when he created Mowin syllabics. He was also popular in the classical period.
The most popular female Ojichaag in the classical period was Asibikaashi, or the Spider Grandmother. She is a protector and helper. Her webs inspired the Asabikeshiinh, or dreamcatchers, that were hung in every longhouse to guard against evil spirits. The spiders that infested the rice bogs were said to be her spirit protecting the manoomin as it grew.
Shingebiss is a duck who defied winter to survive and thrive. He is prayed to when it is most bitterly cold. He is said to be the enemy of Wendigo, a creature who represents insatiable greed and hunger. Wendigo possesses the bodies of humans and makes them murder and cannibalize their loved ones. As terrible as Wendigo is, he too is an Ojichaag, an aspect of Gichi-Manidoo. Worshipping Wendigo would have been akin to Satanism to Europe.
Although rarely worshipped in temples, amongst the common people there was also a belief in memegwesi, little people covered in hair with horns on their head. They caused mischief, sometimes at the direction of Nanabozho. They were similar to the fairies of European folklore.
Each ojichaag had their fanatics and their detractors. Many of the people in the Mishigami during the classical period would disagree with the idea that they shared a religion. They believed that Manidoo could appear in many forms but only some deserved worship. For example, followers of Mishipeshu would violently suppress the followers of the thunderbirds and vice versa.
Parts of the Midewiwin religion are kept secret from all but those who have been initiated as a Mide. Historically these have been called cults, in the Greco-roman sense of the word. Due to the negative connotations of the word and backlash from practitioners who feel that it trivializes and belittles their religion, we will instead use the term mystery religion.
Each mystery religion had a collection of sacred stories, called aadizookaan. Some of these sacred stories were public but others were not to be shared. Most of the public stories were the same or at least similar across the Mishigami. Private stories varied considerably from place to place. Some revealed some aspect of the creation story. Others had secret rituals in order to appease Manidoo or certain Ojichaag. Among these private stories were detailed instructions for sacrifices and offerings.
Next time, we will have a narrative interlude for a slice of life from the Classical Period. But first, a supplemental on human and animal sacrifice in the Mishigami.
[1] Taken from: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9b/Agawa_Rock,_panel_VIII.jpg
Comments? Questions?