The Menominee should get an organized religion at some point that evolves out of the traditional religion like Buddhism emerged from Hinduism. Anyways, nice post, looking forward to the explanation of sacrifice.
The Good Berry: A Wild Rice Domestication TL
- Thread starter PeterEzgo
- Start date
Thank you. I work hard on this TL and I appreciate compliments.
There will be further developments on religion, especially once the classical period ends.
Very interesting timeline, it looks like some very interesting crops.
As for the question you raise above, I think one of the most important aspects of such contact will be the transfer of this crop packet into the Old World. In OTL this was in fact far more important than the European conquest of America, the exploding population across Eurasia was the result of the introduction of these crops.
Here you will see the crop making across the Atlantic to the Baltic and the Sea of Ireland first. So an important question will be how these crops stacks up compared to their European competitors.
Sunroot in OTL spread to Scandinavia (as far north as Trondheim at least) before the potato and was an important garden crop with many regional variations. It fell out of use in the early 20th century and have only made a comeback the last few years.
Wild rice is more of a game changer, Northern Europe are full of wetlands, which is mainly used for grazing, wild rice can also be grown as far north as central Finland st least . The introduction of a wild rice especially a domesticated variation will be pretty revolutionary especially Fennoscandinavia, if it can increase the local population density to just a forth of southern Baltic.
Sunflower is also a very successful plant in Northern Europe in OTL and as the region lack many edible plant oils, it can revolutionize North European cuisine.
I don’t know how the rest of the crops stacks up To European alternatives. But wild rice on their own could result in a massive Scandinavian boom in the High Medieval period, which would have some very significant effects on Europe.
You're on the right track, at least for what I've planned. I'll discuss it more when we get to that point in the narrative but Europe is going to change massively. According to my outline, we should get to that point around... mid-September at the earliest. Sigh.
twovultures
Donor
Given the theology you have described, I am not sure why followers of different ojichaags would try to suppress each other. If you're going for a sort of Hindu theology (which you seem to) with all divinities being embodiments of a greater, unknowable manitou, there's not much point in forbidding worship of one ojichaag over another. If you're going for a classic pagan religion, you can have different gods having violent rivalries (eg Venus vs. the other goddesses over the fate of Troy) in mythology which explains natural phenomena and historic events, but gives absolutely no impetus to their followers in the here and now to take any action. Is there a material reason the followers of these ojichaags fight? Or am I missing something in the ideology?
They are more henotheistic than polytheistic, if that makes sense. They don't deny that the other Ojichaag are powerful beings and maybe even aspects of Manidoo. But they do not think that all Ojichaag are worthy of worship and think that some are worthy of disdain.
For example, Mishipeshu (the Great Lynx/underwater panther deity) and Binesi (the thunderbirds) both control the weather. By invoking Mishipeshu, you are denying the ability of the Thunderbirds to control the weather. In a spiritual way, you are giving power to Mishipeshu at the expense of the Thunderbirds. You are encouraging Manidoo to appear to people and answer people's prayer only as Mishipeshu and not as a Thunderbird.
Also, remember that Manidoo can appear as multiple Ojichaag at once. So violent conflicts between Ojichaag is entirely possible. They would represent different aspects of Manidoo fighting over some issue. Have you ever had an argument with yourself? When Manidoo does it, the world trembles.
The idea of an over-arching supreme being is a) more of a priest thing than a peasant thing. Your average *Menominee farmer is unlikely to totally understand the ideas of Manidoo and the Ojichaag any more than your average Christian understands the finer points of Trinity theology. B) Is going to be encouraged in the future of TTL by people who want peace between the different sects. So it is less of a big deal in the classical period than it is in the modern day of the TL.
Finally, remember that religious violence is not rational. How much difference is there really between different denominations of Christianity? Or between Christianity and Islam. Remember that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same god (kinda). That hasn't stopped conflict from arising between them.
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Ooh I really like the update here, I could see having multiple religions pop up from the same framework, with some being a lot more god focused than others.
Tbf I wonder about what would the agricultural package be before the Europeans arrive. We'd probably have the original package of the Mississippians (prob amaranth and some sort of water adapted amaranth being really important crops too?) and the mesoamerican package with maize and potatoes would be great for the highland farmers who don't have access to the rivers too. It'd be a very well rounded agricultural system that would increase populations in Europe, including in places like Russia too, which would be interesting.
Tbf the reason why I think the various sects of abrahamic religions have conflict with each other is because a different interpretation means a lot of things could change. Not believing in Jesus being god means Trinitarianism is wrong, which breaks the later Christian texts. Buddhism and Hinduism doesn't work like that.
Tbf I wonder about what would the agricultural package be before the Europeans arrive. We'd probably have the original package of the Mississippians (prob amaranth and some sort of water adapted amaranth being really important crops too?) and the mesoamerican package with maize and potatoes would be great for the highland farmers who don't have access to the rivers too. It'd be a very well rounded agricultural system that would increase populations in Europe, including in places like Russia too, which would be interesting.
Been thinking on how the norse, especially norse churchmen, might make sense of Midewiwin religion.
Like, the more classically trained among them would try to understand it via roman paganism (interpretatio graeca/romanum) and so might conflate thunder bird(s) with Jupiter, the great lynx/horned serpent(s) could be Neptune, the hero twins (which haven't been mentioned but to my knowledge are fairly common characters among Native American beliefs) would be equated to Castor & Pollux, etc. If they are aware of Manidoo and how the Ojichaag are 'aspects' of the one God, then I would expect comparisons to platonic notions of The One from the really scholarly types.
Some writers will probably assert that the natives used to worship only the true God but were eventually deceived into worshiping these lesser demons alongside him, breaking the commandment to have no other gods before Him. Will probably be used as an excuse to persecute, mistreat, and otherwise Other them in the same way the norse treated the Sami people.
Norse christians that are less familiarized with the classics might make comparisons to their own mythology. The cannibal spirits can easily fit in (at least in their minds,, the natives would probably disagree) with norse notions of trolls/jotunn, the water spirits with nykr/nykur etc.
Like, the more classically trained among them would try to understand it via roman paganism (interpretatio graeca/romanum) and so might conflate thunder bird(s) with Jupiter, the great lynx/horned serpent(s) could be Neptune, the hero twins (which haven't been mentioned but to my knowledge are fairly common characters among Native American beliefs) would be equated to Castor & Pollux, etc. If they are aware of Manidoo and how the Ojichaag are 'aspects' of the one God, then I would expect comparisons to platonic notions of The One from the really scholarly types.
Some writers will probably assert that the natives used to worship only the true God but were eventually deceived into worshiping these lesser demons alongside him, breaking the commandment to have no other gods before Him. Will probably be used as an excuse to persecute, mistreat, and otherwise Other them in the same way the norse treated the Sami people.
Norse christians that are less familiarized with the classics might make comparisons to their own mythology. The cannibal spirits can easily fit in (at least in their minds,, the natives would probably disagree) with norse notions of trolls/jotunn, the water spirits with nykr/nykur etc.
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Thank you.
I'm not trying to start a fight about religion. My point was just that relatively minor doctrinal differences have provoked massive and long-lasting conflicts before.
I hadn't really planned to talk much about this later so we might as well discuss it now. I doubt many scholars get as far as Vinland. So most comparisons will be with Norse paganism and Catholicism.
The Norse pagans might consider the Thunder birds as servants or steeds of Thor. The norse had their own tales of sea serpents so the mishi-ginebeg/horned serpents wouldn't be hard to reconcile. Nanabozho would be identified with Loki.
Catholicism would view all the Ojichaag as demons. They would probably identify Gichi-Manidoo with the christian god and use that as a tool of conversion, not unlike Jesuits and catholic missionaries in OTL.
This timeline is a fantastic read. One thing I would be eager to read about is diseases in relation to these Minisians. With intensive agriculture and domestication of animals, there would surely be more and worse diseases affecting Minisians. With geese and ducks domesticated, influenza would not be a stranger to Minisians. Meanwhile, they've domesticated animals unlike any in the Old World (wapiti elk). I wonder if they'd have some endemic plague, unlike anything Europeans had ever encountered.
We probably would get a version of typhus in North America because of rocky mountain spotted fever, which is in the same genus as typhus, and I'd think we would get a even more dangerous version which spreads better (maybe with more hosts and the ability to be spread by fleas too instead of just ticks). Brucellosis and native forms of epidemic diseases like herpes is possible too.
Thank you.
I don't know if I'm going to have an update wholly dedicated to talking about disease. Diseases will be around but they won't be super important until much later.
Tbf bringing them up only when epidemics pop up and when the interchange happens would be the most prudent if you don't really wanna do it soonish. Diseases are an interesting topic in general tho.
I must admit with the late domestications, I find it doubtful we will see many epidemic diseases arise, we will at most see bird flu jump species and then burn out pretty fast.
This is a misconception. Diseases do not necessarily arise out of domesticated animals. Think of the pandemics of the last few decades. HIV was a cross-over event from people eating apes infected with the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus. Covid was caused by people eating bats (and/or pangolins?). Neither of those are domesticated animals.
Domesticated animals means the population will be higher (increasing the likelihood of a cross-over event). People also interact a lot with domesticated animals, making it more likely that the diseases of domesticated animals will cross over. Plenty of diseases have come from domesticated animals. Swine flu from swine. Small pox from cow pox. etc. But diseases do not have to come from domesticated animals.
Yes, we have seen diseases jump from wild animal (HIV and the Plague being the most well known examples). But what you shouldn’t forget is that America did have densely populated regions in OTL and domesticated animals (llama, alpaca, guinea pig and turkeys) and still didn’t see epidemic diseases arise.
The main benefit of the dense population is that it allow more people to survive each Eurasian epidemic and select for European admixture without the European overwhelms the native population. A densely populated native American population with contact with the Norse for five hundred years before other European contact would likely result in a more disease resistant mestizo population arising like in Mexico.