Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[Ramp-Rat]

Something to think about while we await the next release of information regarding the upcoming events ITTL. In OTL, saw the breakup of the effective British intelligence operation that was based in Singapore, the Far East Intelligence Bureau, with the loss of all its files and subsequent disruption of its personnel. Forced to try and continue its work, in a number of temporary locations, until it was able to be reassembled in Australia and Kenya. ITTL, this team while subjected to enormous pressures, lack of equipment, major shortage of trained personnel especially Japanese linguists. Will be able to continue its vital work, and in time expand its operations, as more resources become available. This continuity of efforts, along with the retention of skills, will provide the British with an excellent insight into present and future Japanese operations. And once an agreement has been reached with the Americans regarding the exchange of information and the sharing of tasks, a fully integrated system of intelligence gathering, in the Far East/Pacific region.

RR.

 

[MattII]

Tojo's going to wish he'd never poked the lion...

 

[JamesHunter]

Tojo's going to wish he'd never poked the lion...

Poked? More like put his head in its jaws and shot it in the paw. Sure the lions in pain but he's decapitated...

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

When you get right down to it what the Americans really had against the British Empire was that they weren't the ones running it. Everything else is just window dressing to their envy.

Probably at least partially correct. Funnily enough, Churchill would have let the US be partners in running the world with Britain and the Dominions.

But, that wasn't what the US establishment wanted.

 

[X Oristos]

On the other hand, moving at once against Balikpapan offers the hope of linking up with survivors of the first landing force, while delaying until late-February pretty much dooms them.

While I very much agree with the rest of the post, I am not sure about the above.

We know that in addition to the OTL losses, Swordfish torpedoed two transports early on. Then, in OTL the landings took place in two waves - they were restricted by lift capaicty. The first landing took place at 02,40 and the second the next morning at 06,40. Even at noon the next day the landings had not properly finished, since the larger landing craft were hard at work at the mouth of the river near the airfield (12,40).

Judging from OTL, at best less than half of the force would have been ashore, withouy heavy weapons and just the ammo each infantryman carried on his person. No medical supplies, nothing. I don't think anybody would expect them to last more than the following day, never mind more than a week for the Ambon force to arrive.

Then it is the matter of the nature of the setback itself: the Japanese cannot hope to achieve any of their targets if they get caught with their pants down again. They know the Allies have at least one carrier and battleships. At this point they cannot send the whole Main Body of the Southern Force in Makassar and leave the Gulf of Thailand undefended. An educated guess would be that they also have to wait a bit to develop a proper airbase in Tarakan.

 

[wally]

Another alternative was to do the same with the KNIL Army as with the KNIL Air Force. So far, the local defensive units at Tarakan and Menado had proven too small and isolated to fulfil their task. By putting a larger force together that could go toe to toe with the Japanese risked them being by-passed, but seeing something of the Japanese methodology, it was possibly a risk worth taking. Running down the list of assets Ter Poorten identified at Surabaya a Marine Battalion and 6th Regiment KNIL in addition to the Surabaya Garrison Regiment. If these could be moved to Kendari, it would give the Battalion there a real chance to resist.

Looking at the notes, Ter Poorten saw an addendum. Calling one of the staff to ask about it, he was informed that some Americans had arrived at Surabaya the day before. Originally bound for the Philippines, the 2nd Artillery Battalion of 131st American Field Artillery Regiment of the Texas National Guard was currently unattached. The fact that the Americans had their artillery and ammunition with them was a bonus. Whether Ter Poorten could get them under his command and sent to Kendari was something he’d need the Americans to agree to and he immediately got in contact with Admiral Hart, the senior American officer in the Dutch East Indies, who told him he’d find out and get back to him.

Ter Poorten realised he was in a race against time. To increase his forces at Balikpapan and Kendari before the Japanese got there would hopefully slow the Japanese. If the allied navies could knock out one of the Japanese invasion fleets, that would hamper the enemy further. If the air force could make it more difficult for the Japanese to have control of the air, that would be even better. There were a lot of ‘ifs’ in that thought. Ter Poorten had to do something to regain some initiative, otherwise the Japanese would just overrun his home one airfield at a time.

The Dutch were going all out to support Phillip’s Force Z, and the Americans were concentrating to the east of Celebes in the Banda Sea. To increase a sense of comradeship, it had been agreed with the Australian and New Zealand governments that two light cruisers (HMAS Perth and HMNZS Achilles) and two destroyers (HMAS Vampire and Voyager) would be assigned to the American Task Force 5 (USS Houston, Marblehead and Boise, along with eight USN destroyers).

Lets see how the battle at Kendari goes if those forces have assigned and someone else takes over lendership on the ground.

 

[kelgar04]

Hmm you know when British and Commonwealth forces start pushing back in Malay I imagine they will probably come across some of the damned 'Comfort Station' the IJA set up for the troops.

I also imagine that a lot of the officer will have trouble keeping their troops from executing any IJA or IJN personnel they find in them.

Also I really hope MacArthur ITTL is not put in charge of the Occupation of Japan or at least an Occupation Council is set up with Zones like in Germany.

 

[Crazyduck156]

And my father enters the Pacific theatre of the war. Hopefully, both he and HMS Warspite will survive ITTL as well.

Knowing the Warspite's Plot Armour I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up sinking the Yamato and still gets home in time for tea

 

[Ramp-Rat]

Hmm you know when British and Commonwealth forces start pushing back in Malay I imagine they will probably come across some of the damned 'Comfort Station' the IJA set up for the troops.

I also imagine that a lot of the officer will have trouble keeping their troops from executing any IJA or IJN personnel they find in them.

Also I really hope MacArthur ITTL is not put in charge of the Occupation of Japan or at least an Occupation Council is set up with Zones like in Germany.

I personally doubt that this early in the campaign that the Japanese will be setting up ‘Comfort Stations’ in Malaya, though they might be trying to force local women into prostitution. However their biggest problem is that the majority of the population in Malaya are Muslims, who tend to have a very propriety attitude towards women. And attempting to force their women into ‘Comfort Stations’ is going to cause serious conflict with the locals, remember the term Amok originally came from Malaya. As for the British should they encounter a ‘Comfort Station’ executing any Japanese personnel they find there, unless the British can organise a Blitz, there is no chance of them coming across such a facility. Any such facility will be far behind the front line, and once the line begins to collapse, will be withdrawn.

Who will be in charge of Japan post war, depends on who gets the job of managing the invasion/occupation of Japan will be very much dependent on who is the senior American leader at the time. And given just how events are progressing right now, I believe that being MacArthur are slim. Nor will the British want to be involved in any occupation, given just how stretched financially they will be Post War. While hopefully they are not going to be as short of cash as they were IOTL, they will still have the problem of financing the occupation of Germany, and rebuilding their own economy.

RR.

 

[ArtosStark]

Easy - North-west Europe. They had too many problems with the weather and the rations. They served for a short period in WWI but were withdrawn after their first winter there on the Somme. The British learnt from that experience and did not repeat it in WWII.

The Infantry Divisions were. The 1st Indian Cavalry Division (Later renamed the 4th Cavalry Division) remained on the Western Front right through the war. A large Indian Labour Corps also worked on the Western Front right to the end.

 

[Jellico]

Who will be in charge of Japan post war, depends on who gets the job of managing the invasion/occupation of Japan will be very much dependent on who is the senior American leader at the time. And given just how events are progressing right now, I believe that being MacArthur are slim. Nor will the British want to be involved in any occupation, given just how stretched financially they will be Post War. While hopefully they are not going to be as short of cash as they were IOTL, they will still have the problem of financing the occupation of Germany, and rebuilding their own economy.

At this point simply ending the war in the Pacific is a challenge no one has a good answer for. Submarines, isolate, and starve has been the answer (for the RN at least) since the 20s. OTL that wasn't going to be enough. The Allies don't know that yet. I am not sure that the Japanese know that yet. Without victory disease will they get that crazy? At this rate, at some point in 43 the Japanese will cease to be able to project power, the Allies will be unable to invade, and everyone will be asking, "What do we do now?"

 

[MattII]

At this point simply ending the war in the Pacific is a challenge no one has a good answer for. Submarines, isolate, and starve has been the answer (for the RN at least) since the 20s. OTL that wasn't going to be enough. The Allies don't know that yet. I am not sure that they Japanese know that yet. Without victory disease will they get that crazy? At this rate, at some point in 43 the Japanese will cease to be able to project power, the Allies will be unable to invade, and everyone will be asking, "What do we do now?"

The obvious answer would be to offer further support to the Chiang in reducing the Japanese holdings on the mainland. This could be done with the navy only with just some communication troops ashore.

 

[focus9912]

. However their biggest problem is that the majority of the population in Malaya are Muslims, who tend to have a very propriety attitude towards women. .

RR.

Agreed, especially in this case since the northern states were back then and still is, have proportionally more Muslims percentage wise that the ones in the south of the front lines, so the reaction would be really bad, so the Japanese had to rely on the local prostitutes for their sexual needs, altough if the Japanese really want Malays, there will have to go to a surprising place.

 

[StrykerZ0414]

With Wavell likely staying in the Middle East and then Europe, who would succeed Linlithglow as Viceroy of India?

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

At this point simply ending the war in the Pacific is a challenge no one has a good answer for. Submarines, isolate, and starve has been the answer (for the RN at least) since the 20s. OTL that wasn't going to be enough. The Allies don't know that yet. I

Errr... otl we took the shortcut of dropping 2 Abombs, but isolate and starve would have worked just fine.

 

[MattII]

Errr... otl we took the shortcut of dropping 2 Abombs, but isolate and starve would have worked just fine.

Said weapons can't be made available early enough to get used.

 

[vetinari]

I personally doubt that this early in the campaign that the Japanese will be setting up ‘Comfort Stations’ in Malaya, though they might be trying to force local women into prostitution. However their biggest problem is that the majority of the population in Malaya are Muslims, who tend to have a very propriety attitude towards women. And attempting to force their women into ‘Comfort Stations’ is going to cause serious conflict with the locals, remember the term Amok originally came from Malaya. As for the British should they encounter a ‘Comfort Station’ executing any Japanese personnel they find there, unless the British can organise a Blitz, there is no chance of them coming across such a facility. Any such facility will be far behind the front line, and once the line begins to collapse, will be withdrawn.

Who will be in charge of Japan post war, depends on who gets the job of managing the invasion/occupation of Japan will be very much dependent on who is the senior American leader at the time. And given just how events are progressing right now, I believe that being MacArthur are slim. Nor will the British want to be involved in any occupation, given just how stretched financially they will be Post War. While hopefully they are not going to be as short of cash as they were IOTL, they will still have the problem of financing the occupation of Germany, and rebuilding their own economy.

RR.

You appear, like most Northern Hemisphereans seem to have forgotten several major players who did take part in the Occupation of Japan - Australia and India. They each had substantial forces involved. Australia had a battalion of infantry - 3 RAR, a Squadron of armour cars, 77 Squadron RAAF and several ships. India had several ships IIRC.

 

[MattII]

You appear, like most Northern Hemisphereans seem to have forgotten several major players who did take part in the Occupation of Japan - Australia and India. They each had substantial forces involved. Australia had a battalion of infantry - 3 RAR, a Squadron of armour cars, 77 Squadron RAAF and several ships. India had several ships IIRC.

Just because other places participated, it doesn't mean Britain itself will. They still have a lot of commitments in Europe to cover, both the Occupation of Germany and watching for the Soviets, plus they still got hit in Blitz and later.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Said weapons can't be made available early enough to get used.

Of course not. But the person I quoted claimed OTL showed isolate and starve didn't/wouldn't work. Which is false.

 

[MattII]

Of course not. But the person I quoted claimed OTL showed isolate and starve didn't/wouldn't work. Which is false.

That depends what you mean by 'would/wouldn't work'. Would it have forced the Japanese to surrender? Unlikely IMO. But it would have caused so much suffering that they would have struggled to resist a proper invasion. It would have taken longer though.

OTOH, with the British and Dutch at the table in ABDACOM, they can offer insights (both are monarchies f.e.) that might lead to an ultimatum that some Japanese might be willing to accept. F.E. I think the Japanese might be willing to come to the table if no mention was made of the Emperor.