List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

Reader mode
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

Mary Tudor m. 1540 Philip of Palatinate Neuburg [a]

1. Edward VII of England b. 1541 m. Elisabeth of Valois b. 1545
2. Katherine b. 1543 m. Carlos of Asturias b. 1545
3. miscarriage
4. Philip b. 1546 d. 1547
5. stillborn
6. Isabella b. 1548 never married
 

wwbgdiaslt

Antoine, Duke of Vendome, dies shortly after his marriage to Jeanne of Navarre in 1548. The Valois Dynasty is extinct in France on schedule -

Henry III of France, r. 1574 to 1589 - as IOTL

Charles, Archbishop of Rouen, is technically First Prince of the Blood upon the death of his elder siblings, but by the time of Antoine's death, he is Bishop of Santes and chooses not to exert the usual powers of First Prince. By 1584, it is clear he will become King - and he does, from August 1589 to May 1590, as Charles X.

Charles X, r. 1589 to 1590, never married, no children

Then a problem arises. Upon his death, Charles X should be succeeded by his great nephew, Henri, Prince of Conde, but Henri is a) protestant and b) two years old. However, Henri takes the throne as Henri IV on the requirement that he be raised Catholic, and the Regency entrusted to his uncle, Cardinal Charles de Bourbon, and after his death, the Count of Soissons, bypassing the protestant Prince of Conti, who remained heir presumptive. Henri IV eventually marries Anne of Austria, but the pair only gave two daughters.

Henri IV, r. 1590 to 1646 (Regency 1590 to 1594 under Cardinal Charles de Bourbon, 1594 to 1606, under the Count of Soissons), m. Anne of Austria (1601 to 1666), has two daughters, Anne of France, b. 1638, and Charlotte of France, b. 1640

Henri's heir for much of his reign (1612 to 1641) was his cousin, Louis, who became Count of Soissons after the death of his father in 1612. However, the new Count of Soissons has only an illegitimate son - and the closest legitimate male line relative was many generations removed from the throne - so a War of Succession began: the three factions formed:

a) The Pragmatists : those that believed the throne of France could be held by a woman championed Anne of France, despite her infancy (b. 1638),

b) The Semi-Pragmatists : those that belived the throne of France could be transmitted, but not held, by a woman, positioned Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy, the late Count of Soissons' nephew (b. 1628)

c) The Batardists : those that wished to make the Batard of Soissons the King of France, ignoring his illegitimacy and the fact he was, like the King's daughter, an infant (b. 1640)

The three factions competed from 1641 when the Count of Soissons died, to 1646, when the King himself died.
 
The_Most_Happy

The_Most_Happy

wwbgdiaslt said:
Antoine, Duke of Vendome, dies shortly after his marriage to Jeanne of Navarre in 1548. The Valois Dynasty is extinct in France on schedule -

Henry III of France, r. 1574 to 1589 - as IOTL

Charles, Archbishop of Rouen, is technically First Prince of the Blood upon the death of his elder siblings, but by the time of Antoine's death, he is Bishop of Santes and chooses not to exert the usual powers of First Prince. By 1584, it is clear he will become King - and he does, from August 1589 to May 1590, as Charles X.

Charles X, r. 1589 to 1590, never married, no children

Then a problem arises. Upon his death, Charles X should be succeeded by his great nephew, Henri, Prince of Conde, but Henri is a) protestant and b) two years old. However, Henri takes the throne as Henri IV on the requirement that he be raised Catholic, and the Regency entrusted to his uncle, Cardinal Charles de Bourbon, and after his death, the Count of Soissons, bypassing the protestant Prince of Conti, who remained heir presumptive. Henri IV eventually marries Anne of Austria, but the pair only gave two daughters.

Henri IV, r. 1590 to 1646 (Regency 1590 to 1594 under Cardinal Charles de Bourbon, 1594 to 1606, under the Count of Soissons), m. Anne of Austria (1601 to 1666), has two daughters, Anne of France, b. 1638, and Charlotte of France, b. 1640

Henri's heir for much of his reign (1612 to 1641) was his cousin, Louis, who became Count of Soissons after the death of his father in 1612. However, the new Count of Soissons has only an illegitimate son - and the closest legitimate male line relative was many generations removed from the throne - so a War of Succession began: the three factions formed:

a) The Pragmatists : those that believed the throne of France could be held by a woman championed Anne of France, despite her infancy (b. 1638),

b) The Semi-Pragmatists : those that belived the throne of France could be transmitted, but not held, by a woman, positioned Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy, the late Count of Soissons' nephew (b. 1628)

c) The Batardists : those that wished to make the Batard of Soissons the King of France, ignoring his illegitimacy and the fact he was, like the King's daughter, an infant (b. 1640)

The three factions competed from 1641 when the Count of Soissons died, to 1646, when the King himself died.
Click to expand...
First of all, *love* this

Second of all, could the Pragmatists and the Semis reach an accord by betrothing and eventually marrying Anne to Emmanuel Philibert? It's a ten year gap, which isn't great but there were bigger age gaps OTL
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

1-800-wandsthetic said:
Mary Tudor m. 1540 Philip of Palatinate Neuburg [a]

1. Edward VII of England b. 1541 m. Elisabeth of Valois b. 1545
2. Katherine b. 1543 m. Carlos of Asturias b. 1545
3. miscarriage
4. Philip b. 1546 d. 1547
5. stillborn
6. Isabella b. 1548 never married
Click to expand...
So, I'm guessing what happens here is Edward VII is raised a Protestant and so Edward VI makes him heir instead of Jane Grey? And obviously Mary won't be overthrowing her own son. What becomes of Elizabeth ITTL?
 
HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

1-800-wandsthetic said:
POD Elizabeth Tudor survived infancy

Christian II b. 1481 m. 1505 Elizabeth Tudor b. 1492 d. 1513 [a] m. 1514 Isabella of Austria b. 1501

1a. Christian b. 1507
2a. miscarriage
3a. Elizabeth b. 1509 d. 1509
4a. Henry b. 1511
5a. miscarriage
6a. Edward b. 1513
7b. - same as IOTL -

No clue who the boys can marry or if Christian becomes Christian III
Click to expand...
I'm not so sure about the Christian/Isabella match if Christian already has three sons.
 

wwbgdiaslt

The_Most_Happy said:
First of all, *love* this

Second of all, could the Pragmatists and the Semis reach an accord by betrothing and eventually marrying Anne to Emmanuel Philibert? It's a ten year gap, which isn't great but there were bigger age gaps OTL
Click to expand...

This is, I think, possible - and it certainly makes both the Pragmatic factions align against the Batardists. I could see a deal be reached whereupon we arrive at a situation much like William III and Mary II in England, that they are joint monarchs - both inheriting the throne suo jure, but also aquiring it jure uxoris.

This would lead to another interesting problem - that Emmanuel is ten years older than Anne and will have reached majority either just before or shortly after he becomes Co-King with his betrothed, but Anne will not reach majority for another ten years. Is Emmanuel then forced to reign in his own right, but in conjunction with a Regent to represent his future wife?

What then for the infant Princess Charlotte?
 
The_Most_Happy

The_Most_Happy

wwbgdiaslt said:
This is, I think, possible - and it certainly makes both the Pragmatic factions align against the Batardists. I could see a deal be reached whereupon we arrive at a situation much like William III and Mary II in England, that they are joint monarchs - both inheriting the throne suo jure, but also aquiring it jure uxoris.
Click to expand...
Exactly what I was thinking :)

wwbgdiaslt said:
This would lead to another interesting problem - that Emmanuel is ten years older than Anne and will have reached majority either just before or shortly after he becomes Co-King with his betrothed, but Anne will not reach majority for another ten years. Is Emmanuel then forced to reign in his own right, but in conjunction with a Regent to represent his future wife?
Click to expand...
Could he not be appointed regent for his wife?

wwbgdiaslt said:
What then for the infant Princess Charlotte?
Click to expand...
Probably marriage to whatever male heir comes after Emmanuel - Henri II of Lorraine or a surviving son of Elisabeth of Valois and Philip II*

*The Semis could also champion either of these male heirs in lieu of Emmanuel as well
 

wwbgdiaslt

So we seem to be looking at ...

Charles de Bourbon, Duke of Vendome (to 1537), b. 1489, d. 1537, m. Francoise d'Alencon
3) Marguerite de Bourbon, b. 1516, d. 1579, m. Francis, Duke of Nevers, has issue​
4) Antoine de Bourbon, Duke of Vendome (1537 to 1549), b. 1518, d. 1549, m. Jeanne of Navarre, no issue​
8) Charles X of France, prev. Archbishop of Rouen, b. 1523, r. 1589 to 1590, never married​
12) Louis de Bourbon, Prince of Conde, b. 1530, d. 1569, m1. Eleanor de Roye, m2. Francois d'Orleans​
1a) Henri, Prince of Conde, b. 1552, d. 1588, m1. Marie of Cleeves, m2. Charlotte Catherine de La Tremoile​
a1) Catherine, b. 1574, d. 1595​
b1) Eleanor de Bourbon, b. 1587, d. 1619, m. William, Prince of Orange, no issue​
b2) Henri IV of France, b. 1588, r. 1590 to 1646, m. Anne of Austria (1601 to 1666)​
1) Anne I of France, b. 1638, r. 1646 to 1715, m. Henri V of France (1628 to 1709)​
a) Henri, Dauphin of France, b. 1661​
2) Charlotte of France, b. 1640, m. Louis, Count of Armagnac (descendant of Antoinette de Bourbon, sister of Charles, Duke of Vendome)​
a) several children​
1d) Francois, Prince of Conti, b. 1558, d. 1614, married, only one child who died in infancy​
1e) Charles, Archbishop of Rouen, b. 1562, d. 1594, Regent of France 1590 to 1594​
2a) Charles, Count of Soissons, b. 1566, d. 1612, Regent of France, 1594 to 1606, m. Anne de Montafie​
a) Louis, Count of Soissons, b. 1604, d. 1641, First Prince of the Blood, never married​
1) Louis Henri, Batard de Soissons, b. 1640, nominal claimant to French throne as Louis XIII​
b) Louise de Bourbon, Countess of Longueville, b. 1603, d. 1637, m. Henri d'Orleans, Duke of Longueville​
1) Marie d'Orleans Longueville, b. 1625, d. 1707, m. Henri of Savoy, Duke of Nemours, no issue​
c) Marie de Bourbon, Princess of Carignano, b. 1606, d. 1692, m. Thomas Francis, Prince of Carignano​
2) Louise of Savoy, b. 1627​
3) Henri V of France, (Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy), b. 1628, r. 1646 to 1709, (e). Anne I of France​
x) for issue, see line of Anne I of France​
5) Joseph Emmanuel, Duke of Maine, b. 1631​
6) Eugene Maurice, Duke of Normandy, b. 1633​
​
The Pragmatic Concordat of 1644 states that the French crown may be inherited through, but not directly by, a female claimant.

The crown may be transmitted across only a single generation - thus the closest claimants after the House of Savoy are the House of Lorraine as they descend from the sons of Antoinette de Bourbon, thus why Charlotte of France is married to the Count of Armagnac (the Duke of Joyuese is proposed first, but he dies in 1654)
 
Last edited:

wwbgdiaslt

Saya Aensland said:
The House of Courtenay: *sobbing in the corner*
Click to expand...

However, IOTL, the Courtenays petitioned Henri IV to recognise them as Princes of the Blood, the claim was rejected - to all intents and purposes, the royal bloodline starts with Louis IX. ITTL, the petition comes much later, and whilst the Courtenays have a stronger case than IOTL they would still be "commoners" (divorced from the royal bloodline by five hundred years) in comparison and nobody wants to see that happen.
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

HortenseMancini said:
So, I'm guessing what happens here is Edward VII is raised a Protestant and so Edward VI makes him heir instead of Jane Grey? And obviously Mary won't be overthrowing her own son. What becomes of Elizabeth ITTL?
Click to expand...
Yes, Philip was Lutheran and his children were raised in the Lutheran faith, which appeases the very Protestant Edward VI. And with a healthy Protestant nephew, he will NEVER consider a distant female cousin (and this satisfies Mary who will live a very happy life as "My Lady, The King's Mother" a la Margaret Beaufort). Elizabeth lives out her life as Countess of Leicester (as she would be able to marry Robert since she is not anywhere near the throne - Mary's heirs come before her), being her nephew's staunch advisor. Her children with Robert probably end up with various dukedoms and one of her sons marries Lettice Knollys.
 
Last edited:
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

isabella said:
They were to inherit but first Christian was deposed and then the only boy who survived infancy died young.
Christian was NOT seen as a very good match in OTL, and surely will NOT be taken in consideration with three sons…
Click to expand...
Who would Elizabeth even marry? Francis is destined for Claude or Renee, Louis XII is not going to be available for her when she's of age to marry, she's too old for Charles V...
 

isabella

1-800-wandsthetic said:
Who would Elizabeth even marry? Francis is destined for Claude or Renee, Louis XII is not going to be available for her when she's of age to marry, she's too old for Charles V...
Click to expand...
Elizabeth Tudor for Christian of Denmark work fine. Isabella of Austria will need another match, but she and Eleanor have many options: Portugal as wife of John III (if Manuel died earlier or Charles V married Mary Tudor as was planned), Poland as second wife of Sigismund I or Lorraine as wife of Antoine
 
ordinarylittleme

ordinarylittleme

Arthur Tudor m. Katherine of Aragon

1. Mary I of England b. 1502 m. 1514 Henry VIII of England b. 1491
- Elizabeth I of England b. 1516 m. Andrew Bayntun b. 1515
- miscarriage
- Katherine b. 1518 m. Francis III of Brittany b. 1518
- Margaret b. 1520
- miscarriage
- Mary b. 1523
- Henry b. 1525 d. 1525
- stillborn
- Edward b. 1527 d. 1529
 

VVD0D95

Banned
1-800-wandsthetic said:
Arthur Tudor m. Katherine of Aragon

1. Mary I of England b. 1502 m. 1514 Henry VIII of England b. 1491
- Elizabeth I of England b. 1516 m. Andrew Bayntun b. 1515
- miscarriage
- Katherine b. 1518 m. Francis III of Brittany b. 1518
- Margaret b. 1520
- miscarriage
- Mary b. 1523
- Henry b. 1525 d. 1525
- stillborn
- Edward b. 1527 d. 1529
Click to expand...
The likelihood of Mary marrying her uncle under English law is suspect giveb it’s never happened before and when there were rumours Richard iii was to marry his niece, his reputation tanked
 
Reader mode
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top